I am just happy I can hear something close to my own accent for a change ?

(Actually, I have been asked if I was Canadian, from Boston, Australian, French and Belgium. So my accent in English is all over the place, but I am told it is nice.)

It used to be that you could tell who the baddie in a film was if they had an English accent of any kind. Only the good guys seemed to speak the regular American English accent. And tbf, the American English accent isn't that old, is it? Up until the first spoken films there was a refined accent that tried to emulate English, as it had a posh connotation, I think? I should look that trivia up again, it's somewhere in the back of my mind.

I have to say, I do miss 'blood and bloody ashes'. Or is that just because I often use bloody myself, I wonder.

I am okay with any swear and curse words, really. I have no problem with either choice. But just one bloody ashes would make me happy.

5 hours ago, Ellyll said:

 

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this.

The Lord of the Rings was an adaptation.

Game of Thrones was an adaptation.

 

Both of them had to make massive changes to fit their formats, yet (with the exception of the final season of GoT) stayed true to their purpouse.

This does not feel like Jordan's universe to me.
They are hamfisting in banal tropes left and right to make writing easier, and dumping a lot of the core lore in the process. Previous well loved adaptations of other stories prove that is not necessary.
 

That's okay, it feels like Jordan's world to me, though. There you go again: your experience while reading was your experience, I was obviously in a different version of the world: my own adaptation if you will.

You are totally entitled to disagree and you can fully enjoy your own version of the world!

I never felt entitled to being handed 'my version' in the series and I can't feel guilty over being happy I see the world I imagened. But I also acknowledge it sucks that it doesn't serve everyone that experience.

Seriously do not see your view of 'banal tropes' and ditching core lore for no reason. But hey, I only have 40+ years oif reading fantasy experience and a literature study to fall back on. So what do I know... ?

I think the audience for the show is different than for the books. The book fans may well be more critical, or more hyped about it. Those who dont know the books may never get to read it. I don't blame them, it's a lot easier to watch an episode that it is to go through the books. Not everyone is a speedy reader ?

... and speedy reading is not always the best way to really get to the core of a story. But anyway.

I'll repeat what I said when I joined the forum: I am just eager to meet the new fans and eager to discuss things with the book fans. Because this is a thing we all love, right? One aspect at least.

Which is why people who want to hold on to their own version should just not watch the series.

Personally, I have no issue with seeing what they did with it. I love talking about books and stories to other people and compare how each of us fills in the world differently.

We never get a one-on-one image in our head as the author had. We all have different Rands and Moiraines running around in our heads ... and I think that those versions say a lot about who WE are, as readers.

But I am so open to seeing that viewpoint, because it is just another version of something I love. Even if it is totally different from my own.

I am contemplating watching the first episodes again (and I already liked them). I have never ever done that with a series and I am surprised at how invested I am in this.

Could it be that it does bring me back to my younger self, curled up in a chair, reading WoT books and ignoring my studybooks?

I am not even thinking ahead yet to think of how many seasons we get, I am happy already.

Oh yeah, that look on Nyn's face was spot on ? Her whole body language as far as it could 'speak' while she was tied up. The notion that a gag was needed, because she was obviously not shutting up ? I thought it was fun. 

I liked Thom's introduction. I was weary because I read a little spoiler about Thom that I didn't like but it turned out it was nothing like the spoiler after all. And the man can sing. Looking forward to more songs.

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I've stated many times in this thread and others that every change from books to screen has been a woman swapped in for a man - you don't see that pattern?

 No. Which is why I am going to look at it both ways. I needed to go through the first book again anyway.

7 minutes ago, Guire said:

In my life I have been surrounded by wonderful strong women.  I was in a medical military unit for a long time.  It was roughly a 60/40 split men to women.  I have had more female commanders and female civilian bosses than men.  My oldest daughter runs 50 mile desert races and has  worked 60 hour weeks in a covid ICU for last 18 months.  Power is not in the strength of your arm.  WoT has pretty gritty real politics and examinations of power good and bad.  They appear to have cut Tams abilities and story because it is to much a giveaway for Rand.  Elyas is cut diminishing wolfbrother storyline.  Changing women's reinforcement of men in Edmonds field battle into drunken girl power show reduced it's emotional power and added very little to story.  Changing beautiful introduction of Tinkers with Elyas performing ceremony to a weird culty feeling "ok boomer" explanation by Aram.  This is not empowering females bad.  Its that  bad writing/ plot changes while hiding behind media adaption and female empowerment is ruining a great opportunity.

Awesome! And I really am impressed by your daughter. 18 months working on a covid icu is much much harder than anything I have ever done.

But I think the changes were made to make the story flow better and to set up things in the future. I also think that a lot of things were cut because an audience will be alienated by too much information and too many characters.

Maybe I should hunt down all the female secondary characters that were cut or diminished? Then we can count and compare?

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Don't make it out to be a sexist complaint.  It isn't - the complaint is about unnecessary changes.  I imagine there are many definitions of feminism.  The reason for the thread title is because Rafe labeled himself as a feminist.

 

Once again, in the books, the women have the lion's share of the power: Aes Sedai, Aiel Wise Ones, Sea Folk, queens, current and next empress of Seanchan...  And I think it was portrayed well - I've read the entire series in full twice and the first 6 books at least half a dozen times with no complaints or 'this is weird' moments.  So why do men have diminished roles in the show?  Keep the balance the same as the books and women are still calling most of the shots.  All good.

And I don't see it that way. I think there has to be some reason why you see an overpowering and overwhelming shift to women's perspective and I do not. I would really like to find out why. Don't you? You obviously stated your wife shares your vision on this as well, so why do I not see it?

I'll follow the discussion some more and hope that will lead me to the answer.

10 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

 

First half of your post is spot on.  Couldn't agree more.  I know of few who have a problem with that.

Unfortunately 'feminism' like any other movement has its extreme elements that push for superiority, not equality. 

 

[...]

Extremism in a movement does not determin the actual definition of the term feminism.

I enjoy the discussion but am confused because you seem to be talking about something other than feminism.

Feminism is the idea that men and women are to be treated equal, but the main argument here seems to be the show is 'feminist' because the balance seems to be in favour of the female characters. In the strictest sense that is not feminism.

I also think that giving secondary or background characters (who are male) less prominince to focus on the some of the main characters who happen to be female has little to do with a feminist perspective.

Look I get it: some of the people watching who happen to be used to seein g'powerful' male characters are somewhat flustered at suddenly seeing some actual women on screen. Enjoy it!

Dont be like my granddad... he refused to step on the last bus home at night because there was a woman bus driver. We progressed ?

But they made a different choice, probably because of future scenes that we have not seen yet. Have a little faith. I really hope you can just take the story in the series and enjoy it for what it is, and not for what it will never be.

We know or all of them they are never going to live out that country life they thought they were born for. They are no young ones trying to escape their dreary boring future in a sleepy town; they probably were looking forward to having a family, and watching over their little sisters, and getting married ... or not. They arent ready for adventure but will travel and grow up when they need to be stronger.

And there is precious little known about The Tower because you can't overload the audience with information. It would be meaningless to mention that now.

I did check with my guy: he can handle a lot of new info, but even as condensed and compressed as it was, including leaving out characters we know and love, he felt a bit overwhelmed at how many characters and places there were. He can just about keep up as it is.

I am enjoying it more than many other shows. I really do wish they could have made something that would please everyone. Pretty sure if I hated it, some other people (who are now complaining probably) would love it.

It's not new to me to see people complain when something they love is turned into something they can't identify with. I am a Trekkie after all, and have seen people rail against anything from TNG, then DS9, voyager and Enterprise, and of course recently against Discovery. I see some points, but as with WoT the points that I like are just winning out for me.

Personally I dont see the 'low budget look, bad editing and bad writing'. The books had bad writing and editing too, I think, and that did not stop me from enjoying it overall. ? 

But I guess I am a glass half full person after all. Who'd have thunk...

My guy has read the first book at least, but he claims he did not. So ... I know he just got confused by the prologue being as it is, and I guess the style did not grab him. He does read fantasy and science fiction and loves Dune for instance and we are both Star Trek fans.

He thought it was a fine show but he wants me to shut up and stop asking him questions as they apparently are spoilery... I guess I ask questions in a leading way? I thought I was being neutral.

He has been happy to watch it with me and he likes the show, except for the wobbly camera during the Trolloc fight. He makes some assumptions as the show seems to be leading new viewers there and I am trying to let him be surprised. Oh, he really enjoyed the diversity of the Trollocs. Yay for diversity!

He is trying to guess which character I wanted to pick for a nickname back in the day, when it was not available on the platform I was at. Fun fact: I then went with Daenerys as ASOIAF was my other fave book series and that name was available. But there is a character I identify with more than others and I am letting him discover that.

It's been fun watching this with him. I never thought he'd let me watch two episodes in two days. ? We are so anti-binging.

@Borderlander ... ? That makes me sad... There is  nothing cringeworthy about Xena. I loved that show, for all its faults it had lovely characters, and a cast that to me seemed to have a lot of fun. Also Lucy would kick anyone's behind. I get that a lot of people think it was some sort of weak and low budget show, but I think I saw something in its core. And I also don't think it equates to what I have seen of WoT so far.

A coach also does not take out a star player after one unfortunate mistake on the field (of any game), unless they punched someone's eye out or something. It might be a good thing to give the first season some time to find its feet, or balance, or ... you know how there is a moment in any series where the characters and the story suddenly seems to 'be right'? Maybe that is still coming for many people.

I'm already happy with it though, so it's easy for me to say.

46 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

But it was an unnecessary change to motivation.  She was going to leave Rand behind for the White Tower.

 

If they leave the Two Rivers together with Rand, and probably Egwene, still thinking that life was going to play out as they had expected prior to Moiraine - that still leaves plenty of opportunity for the relationship to end later.  And also gives Rand more motivation to go and protect his woman - you know, all that toxic masculinity stuff.

Because men should only protect that which they consider theirs? ? Do you really want to have a discussion about toxic masculinity and how I don't think that goes for Rand over Egwene? Were you born before WWII? Does the whole 'men should provide for their woman' still ring true for you? ? 

Let me give you a virtual hug, because I am sure we don't want to get into that. Is not worth it.

Everything in the first episodes has been compressed, so Egwene's motivation may come earlier than you saw it coming in the books. Just see it as an alternate way to tell the story, down a different track. It's not that important when it happens. Just that it was never going to be an option for either of them to live out the life they expected. On all levels!

Of course there is a lot of foreshadowing. That is the core of the books, too, right?

I mean: who looks up when a pair of black boots step inside the inn? Hmm? Why the look on her face, rather than any other shot? It was a choice that made me smile.

Of course there's going to be a reason Laila was there and why Perrin did what he did. And if it is just to give him a guilty feeling or PTSD than that is in itself enough for me, but really... I am expecting more. I think I'll be right.

There is a point to story telling here.

As a book fan I recognised characters before they were named. But that doesn't mean I don't want those introductions. Yes, I read the books, but I don't mind hearing the story again, maybe with a different flow to it.

I loved Little Red Riding hood as a child. I did not stop my grandmother from telling it again by saying 'Oh, I know, the grandma gets eaten and then he eats the girl and then the hunter comes and rescues them'.

... also, because there are other versions of Red Ridinghood out there, where it's Red Ridinghood who kills the wolf and rescues grandma. I liked all of the versions. (Okay, I liked it that Red Ridinghood is actually a bad ass evil-wolfkiller, but I don't dislike or disregard the other versions.) ?

I dunno, I think this is a matter of different ways to play out the characters motvations. At some point in the books Egwene does realise that it is not going to be feasible to still expect to be married to Rand. So they moved this forward and made it a point that she would pick a position where she can explore her talents over being a housewife.

I can relate to that. Not every woman wants to be a housewife on top of working her job. That is why we have a cleaner, because I am not going to do household chores on top of working my behind off.

I think it was an interesting way to make the point that maybe Rand and Egwene's destinies are not what they initially thought for. They are not each other's default after all.

20 today is different from 20 in the 90's. I know. I was 20 in the 90's. Today, all you ex-teens are dealing with bigger sh*t than I ever had to. I was a kid, a child, a young'un back then. Fresh, naieve, maybe even a little more sheltered.

I dont think Rand and Egwene did incredibly unthinkable... even in my childlike state as a 20-year old, all of my friends were 'bumping uglies', except they didnt think it was anything taboo or wrong or oowwiie! Good on them for mildly suggesting Rand and Egwene were intimate. Good on them, it was consensual, loving and tender, I am sure.

And tbf, I really dont think it was that mature or 'adult'  in nature. Yes, the books are more timid, but not every author can or wants to write about intimate scenes. And that;s okay. That doesn't mean the characters are chaste virgins all the way... I sincerely always assumed Rand and Egwene were sneaking off to have a fumble.

Lan was definitely not 'whinging' about the bath's temperature. He was clearly teasing Moiraine. That's how I read it. Get off his case. He's already not Geralt. (I love the series Lan; I think he is as close as he could get to the Lan in my mind.)

Yes. I loved it. I have been reading the series since it came out, I have read the first three books repeatedly and the others at leasst once (except for the Sanderson ones). I have a clear idea of a lof of things of this world and its characters and I never expected a carbon  copy of my theatre of the mind to TV.

And yet it came fracking close.

I was not impressed by the first onscreen battle, as there was too much camera-swinging. I get it: they want the audience to not see too much so everyone gets scared and confused of the monsters. But if they keep this up I will have to battle my motion sickness. That, or I can hope to get used to it. But I did like the frantic mess and showing how the town was overrun but they somehow still found ways to defend themselves. Showing that it was a fight that was hard won.

I really whis Moiraine was shorter, but that is about the onluy complaint I have. I loved how they showed wielding the power as such a physical act, with Lan dancing around.

My guy, non-reader (he DID read EotW, but forgot all of it...), also liked it and has not walked away during the episodes. I can't ask him anything about anything in the show, because he keeps thinking it will contain a spoiler. So I am happy to have you all over here. /me hugs you all.

I did say I would not binge. So we watched one episode on Friday. And then the next episode just now. And I will probably make a case for watching episode 3 tomorrow. But I really want time between these dense episodes. I see the choices they made and I am happy with the pace, the story telling and picking up the little Dutch accents that Rand has. (Yes. The only Dutch actor that almost got away with hiding his Dutch was Rutger Hauer.)

I had to wait all day. All. Day. And just now, my guy finished work. I did go to Prime to see if it really was available, abour 5 hours ago, at our lunch time. And... I had something in my eye. Why else would it water?

Now we make flammkuchen which takes no time at all and then we see if we will be happy, disappointed, optimistic it will be good or better or if we just go 'meh'.

But right now I am quite excited. Still.

I just read a quick review in a Dutch online newspaper, which of course hastened to say that Rand is Dutch - I mean, the actor who plays Rand - and then has issues with the series not being the LotR films. Even while saying that Jordan kinda admitted to having borrowed from LotR.

I too am looking forwardf to making up my own mind.

Mind you. Remember how badly the first series of GoT was received? It wasn't all 'glory to GRR Martin' at the time, as I recall. Time will tell. ... the wheel weaves ...

Did anyone see this article yet, in the Guardian?

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/nov/17/the-wheel-of-time-is-far-from-great-for-women-amazon-prime-rosamund-pike

Just thought I'd share it.