We can consider that she was not sure because ['not betraying the DO until my last hour'] (more or less like that...) trying to undo the oaths would likely be kind of betrayal...

I don't think Jordan threw the 'distinctive' detail for nothing, but it could be a clue for another thing entirely; or it could be the plain answer here, I just think the other reason is also very possible.

Either way she was wrong; Talene had no problem forswearing the Oaths, other than the usual pain.

Except that it's probably not true. Darkfriends, even Black Ajah, don't often go to Shayol Ghul, if they do at all. Alviarin had never been, for example. All we know is that Verin says the process of taking the Black Ajah oaths (on the Oath Rod) was 'distinctive'. Whatever that means.

They replace the Three Oaths with three of their own. That's how they maintain the ageless face; RJ said it has to be three, for that.

The only clue I can think of is that Lanfear seems to like removing skins whole.

No, Mat told Moiraine the news of Morgase's "death" the previous day before the battle with Lanfear at the docks of Cairhien

ah okay, so really moiraine smiling is because she probably knows mats brain got all swiss cheesy and he doesnt necesarrily remember everything

I think that the main reason for the smile was that, of all things, she could hardly have forgotten Mat telling her about Morgase.

Since the first day I reached Rhuidean, I have known – it need not trouble you how, some secrets belong to others, and I will not betray them – that a day would come in Cairhien when news would arrive of Morgase. I did not know what that would be – if what we heard is true, the Light have mercy on her soul; she was willful and stubborn, with the temper of a lioness at times, but for all that a true, good and gracious queen – but each time that news led to the docks on the following day. There were three branches from the docks, but if you are reading this, I am gone, and so is Lanfear...

He told her in "News Comes to Cairhien". It was a pretty big deal.

Regardless, perhaps we've continued on a tangent for too long now, so let's wrap this up.

compulsion ≠ wards

Now, we're done.

You've made me reconsider this. The logic seems reasonable.

Yay! It was on the list of MAFOs I originally sent to Maria.

Is it some kind of Compulsion that's used to help the Accepted remember their test and the six-pointed star in the Test for the Shawl? Rereading Moiraine's Test in New Spring gave me that feeling.

I asked Brandon about that.

PS—The only reason I really doubt whether Else was Mesaana was the fact that Egwene thought Else was looking at the stone ring, and she also thought Lanfear glanced at it (as she was looking Egwene up and down). But that is like a child wondering why his mother knew he had something in his pockets. Why wouldn't she glance? And for another, there are a couple of other details that seem designed to suggest that Else wasn't Lanfear:

1. When Egwene went out the door, she noticed that the flash of white was further down the hall than it should be, and deduced that Else must be running. But somehow I doubt Lanfear was running, and it would be silly for her to Travel down the hallway instead of just Traveling herself away to wherever she wanted to be. To me it makes more sense that she was watching from a distance, saw Mesaana make a reversed gateway, and simply walked away because Mesaana wasn't there any longer.

2. The wording—"I suspect she is far away from here by now."—has the ring of simple truth. Sure, it applies to Else too, assuming she wasn't killed (it wouldn't be necessary to kill her if she was sent home; it's not like she would come back to confuse things). But combined with the above it is enough to make one wonder.

Also, RJ often said that the only influence his fans really had on his writing was that, when they had figured out something too quickly, he would put in less clues, and when they had a totally wrong idea about something, he would put in more clues, or more specific clues. I can't help but think the bit about Mesaana in LOC was intended to put readers on the right path about Else, because everyone wrongly assumed it was Lanfear.

No. I believe that Else was never Lanfear. She was Mesaana, when she met Mat, and again when she met the girls.

What about what I asked? Was the woman around the corner Mesaana, or Lanfear?

Lanfear. As I said earlier, I believe she was spying on Mesaana.

That's not clear at all, actually, for several reasons.

 

So you believe that the Else talking to Mat was Lanfear but the Else that summoned the Wonder girls was Mesaana, who then impersonated Lanfear when Egwene caught up to her?

No. I believe that Else was never Lanfear. She was Mesaana, when she met Mat, and again when she met the girls.

I understand the reasoning but that is under the premise that Mesaana sent the Wonder girls to Tear to be trapped as well. All we know for sure is that Mesaana was only trying to help Be'lal trap Rand. I don't remember any where it was stated that she was also trying to trap the girls.

Bait for the Net

We do have RJ's answer that Lanfear was indeed posing as Else (I know you aren't 100% on the accuracy of that report).

It's a paraphrased signing report, and I don't believe he said she was Lanfear. And won't believe it, until someone gets an answer out of Maria.

Verin said in TGS she'd met Mesaana in the WT. Since she left the WT before TSR and didn't return until her last night there i TGS, we can assume Messi was already there. Hence, Danelle has indeed already been replaced by TSR.

 

Except that Mesaana might well have been posing as someone else early on. We have other reasons to believe that Mesaana was already Danelle at that time, but your logic doesn't work.

 

Any reason to assume she's imitating multiple people?

 

I believe she was Else, for one. Her personality didn't match Lanfear's very well at all, and we know from LOC that the trap leading the girls to the Stone was Mesaana's trap (which makes sense, of course). Why would Lanfear lend a hand in that? Much more likely she was observing Mesaana. I believe she was probably already at least working on her Danelle disguise at the time, but presumably at some point she had to hide in the Tower under various disguises until she pinpointed an Aes Sedai she could impersonate, someone close to her height and bone structure, and someone with few friends.

 

Honestly were the scene with Else and Mat in a vacuum I might buy that, but the Else who talks to Egwene was clearly Lanfear.

That's not clear at all, actually, for several reasons.

Wait, are we talking about when she was with Mat? Because Lanfear was Else at one point.

I don't believe she was.

When the wonder girls were got a visit from Else as a "messenger" from the Amyrlin. She was Else then, when she turned the corner, she went back to Lanfear form.

As I said, Lanfear was probably watching Mesaana; we learn in LOC that the Tear trap was Mesaana's plan, and it's unlikely they were working together.

Verin said in TGS she'd met Mesaana in the WT. Since she left the WT before TSR and didn't return until her last night there i TGS, we can assume Messi was already there. Hence, Danelle has indeed already been replaced by TSR.

 

Except that Mesaana might well have been posing as someone else early on. We have other reasons to believe that Mesaana was already Danelle at that time, but your logic doesn't work.

 

Any reason to assume she's imitating multiple people?

I believe she was Else, for one. Her personality didn't match Lanfear's very well at all, and we know from LOC that the trap leading the girls to the Stone was Mesaana's trap (which makes sense, of course). Why would Lanfear lend a hand in that? Much more likely she was observing Mesaana. I believe she was probably already at least working on her Danelle disguise at the time, but presumably at some point she had to hide in the Tower under various disguises until she pinpointed an Aes Sedai she could impersonate, someone close to her height and bone structure, and someone with few friends.

Not a ter'angreal, according to Maria.

Verin said in TGS she'd met Mesaana in the WT. Since she left the WT before TSR and didn't return until her last night there i TGS, we can assume Messi was already there. Hence, Danelle has indeed already been replaced by TSR.

Except that Mesaana might well have been posing as someone else early on. We have other reasons to believe that Mesaana was already Danelle at that time, but your logic doesn't work.

I asked Brandon about that, and it seems it was Alviarin.

I believe it was a retcon.

I believe I already conceded the point last we discussed it, because it's impossible to get around. What the quote I gave makes clear is that RJ didn't really put very much thought into it. I've been pointing out a lot of similar things on my reread thread at Theoryland.

I think it was in this thread where we were discussing the altered a'dam? Anyway, just passed this in my reread:

"Wear it," she said as Elayne started to hang the bracelet on a wall peg with their clothes.

 

The golden-haired woman gave an affected sigh, but refastened the bracelet. In Nynaeve’s opinion, Elayne was entirely too trusting of the a’dam. True, so long as the necklace remained on Moghedien’s neck, any woman able to channel could find her with the bracelet, and control her. If no one wore the bracelet, she could not move more than a dozen paces from it without falling to her knees retching, and the same if she shifted the bracelet more than a few inches from where it had been left, or tried to unfasten the necklace herself. Maybe it would hold her even on the peg, but maybe one of the Forsaken could reason a way around that, given enough chances.

Good chapter name for this thread.

In the scene where they were introduced (LOC prologue) Osan'gar thinks to himself, "He had never liked Halfmen. He had helped make the Trollocs, blending human and animal stock – he was proud of that, of the skill involved, the difficulty – but these occasional throwback offspring made him uneasy at the best of times." There are other references in LOC to the fact that Aginor was the one who created the Shadowspawn. From there, it's easy enough to figure out that the woman was Balthamel, partly because they died together, and partly because of the line in TEOTW, "I have almost forgotten the pleasures of the flesh....But Balthamel remembers much." Then the BWB was published, and everything we know about Osan'gar and Aran'gar fits with everything the BWB says about Aginor and Balthamel. For example, Arangar in KOD 3: "She was the only one who understood primitive cultures. They had been her specialty before the war." And from the BWB: "Balthamel, born Eval Ramman, was a historian specializing in the study of vanished cultures."

See here.

Knife of Dreams, Chapter 18.

Yeah, we're aware of that bug. It has to do with excluded search words which I have been trying to get the bossman to eliminate completely. One good tip: search bowl and winds instead. That usually works. No quotes. Or use the tags.

PS—I just realized that the word 'winds' wasn't in that quote at all. (That's pretty common, hence the tags.) I think I will ask bossman to search tags in the text search, if that's possible. Anyway, I switched around the footnotes on those to try to make it more helpful.

It even has a 'bowl of the winds' tag. You should get used to the new one, Fins. It makes life much easier once you do.

The Ways were made during the Breaking as a token of thanks to the Ogier who gave the male channelers sanctuary from tainted saidin. They didn't exist before then.