Hard for me to know what "the voice is real" means.

The debate has always suffered from semantics issues. The 'realers' are generally people who have a hard time making distinctions, taking the clear reality of Lews Therin's memories too far. It's what RJ intended—readers accepted Rand's interpretation without questioning it really—and the fact that he was able to pull it off was one of his greatest accomplishments, along with hiding Verin's mission in plain sight. You can argue about it all day, but as long as you recognize that 1) Lews Therin's memories were effectively Rand's memories, and 2) the 'voice' and its accompanying delusions were byproducts of taint madness, then you're all good.

We're not even sure they didn't see each other after the rescue, for chrissake. Masema disappeared that night; nothing to say what he was doing before then. But even if they didn't meet, Masema's words:

The Prophet scanned the dim afternoon clearing, searching for the one who had spoken. He found her standing on a little outcrop of rock a short distance away, a woman with a prominent Saldaean nose, slightly tilted eyes, and shoulder-length black hair. She wore green, with skirts divided for riding, her arms folded in front of her.

 

Faile Aybara, wife of the Shadowspawn, Perrin Aybara.

The wording suggests that he deduced her identity from her appearance, not that he recognized her.

Except that there is a similarity between Tarwin's Gap and Maradon that none of Rand's other experiences with Shadowspawn share: those confrontations were in the Blight.

location alone to me does not make a situation too close.

Because you say so, eh?

Well, that makes things so much clearer. The voice declares it will not take part for absolutely no reason. What on earth makes you think we should not take the voice at its word?

Because, if it was the DO, it would want to appear aloof and benevolent, rather than tip his hand (can you think how Rand would've reacted to the DO revealing (a) that it's not Ishamael, and (b) that its hope is to fool Rand into serving it?). The VOICE wishes Rand to try his hand, to perform on his own. That doesn't change, depending on whether it was the Creator or the DO.

But why did it speak at all, if it was Shai'tan? Rand was going to act on his own regardless of the voice. The voice changed nothing. So why would Shai'tan speak to Rand to say that he wasn't going to do anything when no-one expected Him to do anything anyway? I can understand Shai'tan not wanting to reveal Himself, but He would not have been revealed had He just stayed quiet. Speaking doesn't really benefit the Shadow.

Rand was issuing the Dark one a challenge, saying "The Light burn you, Ba'alzamon! It has to end!" The Dark One was responding, saying he would not take part. That's why Rand said he came too close to provoking a direct confrontation with the Dark One at Maradon; he has done that before, when he attacked the Shadowspawn army in Tarwin's Gap, inside the Blight.

Rand was issuing a challenge to Ba'alzamon, not Shai'tan.

Ba'alzamon is another name for Shai'tan, despite the fact that Ishamael also used it.

Ba'alzamon was believed to be the Trolloc name for Shai'tan, that doesn't mean the belief is correct.

It was in the glossary as another name for the Dark One. And whether or not it was originally intended to be a name for the Dark One, there is no reason to believe that the Dark One does not know that everyone thinks of him as Ba'alzamon.

Also, in context while Rand might believe he was issuing a challenge to Shai'tan, he wasn't. He was challenging Ishamael, who he knew as Ba'alzamon.

Who he also believed to be the Dark One.

No-one was speaking to Shai'tan, no-one expected Him to take part. And no, it's not why Rand said he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon. He said that because he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon, it had nothing to do with Tarwin's Gap.

You say that as if your word alone settles the issue. It doesn't; it's just your opinion, and it's not very logical at that.

You do the same thing all the time. You said it, with no evidence. You provided an illogical opinion and expected it to settle things.

No, I provided an argument. There's a big difference between making an argument and just stating your opinion, as you did above.

Except that there is a similarity between Tarwin's Gap and Maradon that none of Rand's other experiences with Shadowspawn share: those confrontations were in the Blight.

It's a fine line. RJ said that to do so would be to acknowledge that his Creation is not perfect and needs assistance or guidance, and therefore he does not do it.

Well, that makes things so much clearer. The voice declares it will not take part for absolutely no reason. What on earth makes you think we should not take the voice at its word?

Because, if it was the DO, it would want to appear aloof and benevolent, rather than tip his hand (can you think how Rand would've reacted to the DO revealing (a) that it's not Ishamael, and (b) that its hope is to fool Rand into serving it?). The VOICE wishes Rand to try his hand, to perform on his own. That doesn't change, depending on whether it was the Creator or the DO.

But why did it speak at all, if it was Shai'tan? Rand was going to act on his own regardless of the voice. The voice changed nothing. So why would Shai'tan speak to Rand to say that he wasn't going to do anything when no-one expected Him to do anything anyway? I can understand Shai'tan not wanting to reveal Himself, but He would not have been revealed had He just stayed quiet. Speaking doesn't really benefit the Shadow.

Rand was issuing the Dark one a challenge, saying "The Light burn you, Ba'alzamon! It has to end!" The Dark One was responding, saying he would not take part. That's why Rand said he came too close to provoking a direct confrontation with the Dark One at Maradon; he has done that before, when he attacked the Shadowspawn army in Tarwin's Gap, inside the Blight.

Rand was issuing a challenge to Ba'alzamon, not Shai'tan.

Ba'alzamon is another name for Shai'tan, despite the fact that Ishamael also used it.

No-one was speaking to Shai'tan, no-one expected Him to take part. And no, it's not why Rand said he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon. He said that because he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon, it had nothing to do with Tarwin's Gap.

You say that as if your word alone settles the issue. It doesn't; it's just your opinion, and it's not very logical at that.

Rand was issuing the Dark one a challenge, saying "The Light burn you, Ba'alzamon! It has to end!" The Dark One was responding, saying he would not take part. That's why Rand said he came too close to provoking a direct confrontation with the Dark One at Maradon; he has done that before, when he attacked the Shadowspawn army in Tarwin's Gap, inside the Blight.

From my understanding, Maradon was the only time that was too close; otherwise I think Rand would have added "again" somewhere within the sentence.

I don't see why he should have, or how he could have known it was too close unless he had some experience with that sort of thing.

I take the Dark One could speak only at Shayol Ghul; they were not there.

And the Creator, by RJ's own words, is completely removed from the world and therefore cannot speak at all. Easier to assume we don't know everything about where the Dark One can speak.

Well, that makes things so much clearer. The voice declares it will not take part for absolutely no reason. What on earth makes you think we should not take the voice at its word?

Because, if it was the DO, it would want to appear aloof and benevolent, rather than tip his hand (can you think how Rand would've reacted to the DO revealing (a) that it's not Ishamael, and (b) that its hope is to fool Rand into serving it?). The VOICE wishes Rand to try his hand, to perform on his own. That doesn't change, depending on whether it was the Creator or the DO.

But why did it speak at all, if it was Shai'tan? Rand was going to act on his own regardless of the voice. The voice changed nothing. So why would Shai'tan speak to Rand to say that he wasn't going to do anything when no-one expected Him to do anything anyway? I can understand Shai'tan not wanting to reveal Himself, but He would not have been revealed had He just stayed quiet. Speaking doesn't really benefit the Shadow.

Rand was issuing the Dark one a challenge, saying "The Light burn you, Ba'alzamon! It has to end!" The Dark One was responding, saying he would not take part. That's why Rand said he came too close to provoking a direct confrontation with the Dark One at Maradon; he has done that before, when he attacked the Shadowspawn army in Tarwin's Gap, inside the Blight.

Probably something to do with the balefire not touching the bracelets directly. There's Brandon's force-to-spread thing, but maybe it's different with cuendillar.

Interview: Jan 18th, 2003

Crossroads of Twilight Signing Report—Tallis (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

Tallis

I'm uncertain how this fits with the ending of The Eye of the World.

RJ has said that the Creator is completely removed, takes no part whatsoever, all kinds of wording that make it clear it's not the Creator. Clear to me, anyway. Obviously people will argue about anything.

Moiraine explains it after they escape. They feed on emotions, particularly strong emotions like the pain Mat felt when they took his eye.

Nope, no references of children. Or much family at all, aside from Asmodean severing his mother. There are, of course, "Mesaana's Children", but that was a different thing.

Not that we know of, in either case.

Kind of pointless to speculate when we don't know how many Aes Sedai were there. It could have been several.

Silver is also heavily associated with Lanfear.

I don't see why you would find that odd. There are others that aren't recognizable, like the Illianer noblewoman. We haven't met any of those.

If I read this right, have we a good idea of who the Sea Folk man was (it was a man, wasn't it?)?

 

Because I can only think of Zaida as a possible DF, and that only because we know she has to lose her position in some way.

I'm not sure you read it right; the Illianer woman was only an example. But Moad is somewhat suspicious. (Harine's Swordmaster.)

Moad leaned an elbow on the tall pommel of his saddle, rested a hand on the long, carved ivory hilt of the sword thrust behind his green sash, and openly studied the Aes Sedai and the men with them. Where had he learned to ride a horse? He actually looked . . . comfortable.

Not much to go on there. He might have learned to ride in some innocent situation or another, and he wouldn't necessarily need to ride much as a Darkfriend either. But when I tweeted about it, Linda responded and said he was on her list too.

Edit: I went through the scene, and there are several we have no idea about. And a few we know. In the order they are described:

1. Illianer woman, wealthy, maybe a noblewoman.

2. Domani woman, first blood.

3. Shienaran warrior - Ingtar.

4. A Kandori - no idea.

5. A Cairhienin - maybe Barthanes.

6. A Saldaean - maybe Vram Torkumen or his wife. Or Taim, though I doubt Taim would be sloppy.

7. A Ghealdanin - no idea.

8. A Tinker - no idea.

9. High Lord of Tear - Weiramon.

10. Andoran Queen's Guard officer - maybe Hanlon or Comar.

11. Sea Folk man - maybe Moad. Whatever his orders were, he was reluctant.

12. Two Aes Sedai - Liandrin and we don't know who else. Others could have been disguised better.

I don't see why you would find that odd. There are others that aren't recognizable, like the Illianer noblewoman. We haven't met any of those.

It doesn't matter; we have no reason to believe he wasn't in the Guard before then. The only other possibility we know of is Lord Comar, but he supposedly left the Guard because he got caught cheating at dice, and we don't know when that happened.

It was probably Daved Hanlon a.k.a. Doilon Mellar, who became captain of Rahvin's White Lions.

I also think that was a Brandonism, though probably for different reasons. Terez and I hold intrinsically divergent postions when it comes to the question of LTT and Rand.

 

IIRC you were in the real'er camp with a twist thrown in? Those were some epic debates...

 

I'm the proponant of the Real Madness theory. I.e. that the manifestation of Lews Therin is really Lews Therin's personality, but that the manifestation is a result of the Taint (the manifestation of a real personality being a form of madness in Randland due to its detsabalising influence on a persons' psyche (as per Semirhage)).

That's just an overly convoluted way of saying what we've been saying all along, but which happens to ignore the fact that the Voice didn't resemble Lews Therin's real personality at all.

I'm also, you know, right, the Theorylander bullied-and-paid-for consensus nonwithstanding.

What??

The RJ quote is not contradictory at all. He's speaking specifically about the perspective of people in the world;

How do you figure, regarding the first one? He seems to say quite clearly that LTT's personality wasn't reincarnated in Rand.

That does not mean that the base soul is not the same person. It just means that the base soul is shaped differently in each life through different experiences. Lots of people change due to different experiences; that doesn't make them a different person than they were before. It's simply a matter of degree. Somewhere in between is an amnesiac.

The RJ quote is not contradictory at all. He's speaking specifically about the perspective of people in the world; if they don't have past life memories then they have no reason to believe (other than theology) that their past lives are actually them, or that death is not the end for them, and thus they fear it. As for the 'raised better' thing, I think that's a Brandonism for several reasons.