Wait, so do you mean Rand was in fact still in the Dream when he saw the burn marks, or that the TP somehow facilitated Ishamael's affecting the waking world from it?

The latter.

To me the simplest answer is early-book-ism.

It usually is. Doesn't mean it's always true, though.

In TGH chapter 41 "Disagreements", Rand is in an abandoned town near Falme. He goes to sleep on an uncomfortable mattress and wakes up seeing Ba'alzamon holding his Dragon Banner. They have a conversation and when Rand looks again he is gone, the Banner back in his saddlebags all buckled up, yet there were burn marks on a chair back where Ba'alzamon touched it.

 

So, was this a dream, was it reality, or was it just meant to be mysterious and confusing? Usually the confusing stuff makes sense later, but I could never come up with an explanation for this.

It's very similar to what Amys did when she caught Egwene in Tel'aran'rhiod when she wasn't supposed to be there. I'm thinking the burn marks have something to do with the True Power.

I think dying in Tel'aran'rhiod is only the final death if you are there as a dead Hero.

I'm not sure how the 'small amount' thing works.

Most interesting is an earlier one from RJ, in the Questions of the Week. He indicated that a very small amount of balefire wouldn't prevent the Dark One from grabbing the soul.

Meh, it's a bit of an inverted bell curve, but I wouldn't say there's nothing in between at all.

It's female chauvinism, usually. RJ tried to create a world in which women could believably act toward men the same way men act(ed) toward women in our world.

It would never have occurred to him to kill her for it. Just like it didn't occur to him to balefire Semirhage to get his hand back...

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. Elan Morin was born during the AoL. He later came to believe that Creation should be ended and allied with the DO. By the end of the War of Power he seems to know that LTT's soul champions the Light at each Turning of the Wheel, and apparently he believes his own soul always battles it for the Shadow. Whether he's correct in this belief and how he came by it we simply don't know, but it stands to reason that the DO helped him along (that doesn't mean that it's true, obviously).

Actually, Brandon confirmed that his soul is often twined together with the Dragon soul through the Ages, like Birgitte and Gaidal (his comparison). So that pretty much confirms he's the Champion of the Dark. However, his thoughts in the TPOD prologue suggest that he doesn't have past life memories, unless he's merely complaining that he does not remember back quite far enough. Hard to say, but I'd guess he remembers only this life (starting with Elan Morin) and that everything he knows about his past role comes from the Dark One.

The evidence suggests that Ishamael was free for periods of about 40 years three or four times. Just after the sealing, around the Trolloc Wars (maybe more than once), and during the War of the Hundred Years, and again around the time of the Aiel War. He added at least a couple hundred years to his life during those 3500 years but he got a new body, so...

I think most of the Forsaken were somewhere between 300-400 years old at the time they were sealed up.

//Spoilers for both series//

 

Hello, WOT fans. I made it through ToM about a month ago, and read the Sword of Truth (SOT) series a couple years ago (including a re-read). I have found many cool similarities; although, the two series are very different. This post has nothing to do with accusing either author of copying. It is merely to point out some observations. Of course I inderstand that many similarities are due to common themes in fantasy/fiction literature.

There are many similarities between WoT and SoT. There is one important difference, though:

From USA Today 4 August 2003:

 

Haddonfield, NJ: Second Question - I've noticed similarities between your Sword of Truth series and Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series...(Black Sisterhood vs. Black Ajah; The Order vs. The Seanchan; Richard vs. Rand both discovering their powers, both have Nameless evil Gods...etc.) I've often voiced my suspicion that these two series might be occurring on the same world...how crazy am I?

 

Terry Goodkind: If you notice a similarity, then you probably aren't old enough to read my books.

From USA Today 5 January 2004:

 

Delmar, NY: Have you ever read or heard about the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind? After reading the series it is obvious many of the main ideas are copied from the WoT.

 

Robert Jordan: I'm aware of Mr. Goodkind.

Robert Jordan's blog 15 July 2006 - NO CHAMPAGNE YET

 

For Richard Scholten, I have never discussed anything whatsoever with Terry Goodkind. I suggest that you check the publication dates of his books and mine. Of course, he says he has never read me, or so I'm told, and I would never contradict a statement like that. Just check out the pub dates on his books, and the pub dates on mine, those that contain the similarities you speak of.

In my experience, it's most.

Not according to my poll. Go ahead and cast your vote; I went with both the link being used and the DO's having planned it that way.

I just looked at the poll, and it's as I said - most (29 out of 46) believe he drew it through the link with Moridin, and most of those people (21 of 29) believe the Dark One planned for that. It helps to get a decent sample size first.

In my experience, it's most. Furthermore, most believe the Dark One probably planned it that way.

You know you're a WoT fan when you have something close to 30,000 posts between the various WoT forums...

is egwene going crazy? Because she has a small voice that brought her through the mesaana bit, much like LTT voice helped rand out during trying times

 

I think that's just like the little voice Nynaeve hears that tells her she's a coward and to blame for everything in the early books. The little voice we all hear now an then that points out things we don't notice straight away, or tells us things we don't like.

Which is, of course, what Lews Therin was all along.

Well, some have now transferred it to the Taim=Moridin theory. Some thinks it means that Taim was trained by Ishamael and picked up some of his habits. Some think it only means he has some familiarity with the Old Tongue and thinks that it's a silly name for a bunch of savages who don't seem to be dedicated to much beyond killing.

I think that might be a bit of a false impression, since most of us had the same reasoning as you. We don't really take it for granted; we just find it likely to be true.

I doubt anybody bothered to ask.

Actually, Callandor from Theoryland did ask, in the context of which mysteries will be answered and which will be left open. Brandon replied that he will keep quiet on this for now, but that it's good to know what people are curious about (in other words, he probably hadn't really considered it to be a great mystery before).

Ohhh, yeah! Thanks for reminding me.

lol. You guys must have missed this bit:

 

"Rand al'Thor," Nynaeve shrieked, "that is the most outrageous thing I ever heard out of your mouth! The very idea of telling three women you love them! You're worse than a lecher! You apologize right now!" Lan had snatched his pipe from his mouth and was staring at Rand.

 

Thanks for the reply. This is from WH:12, A lily in Winter? Isn't this the conversation they have before the bonding ceremony talking about love and marriage, Elayne says lets go to our rooms so as not to be bothered by Nynaeve and Lan as she feared Nynaeve would stop them? edit: from bonding with Rand.

Indeed. But she knows of the relationship between the three of them. She would probably have figured out the bond thing a long time ago if the subject didn't repulse her so much.

Also, Mat doesn't know about Min, unless someone happened to tell him, which I doubt. He was taken away right after Falme and likely doesn't remember much aside from the battle itself. Min wasn't at the Stone, and he had left the Tower before she got there. And then Rand sent him away in early LOC before Rand hooked up with Min in Caemlyn when the rebel embassy showed up, and when he took Mat to Salidar he of course had Aviendha with him, but not Min. So Mat and Min haven't even seen each other since Falme, which Mat probably doesn't remember, and before that, he only saw her at the Stag and Lion.

lol. You guys must have missed this bit:

"Rand al'Thor," Nynaeve shrieked, "that is the most outrageous thing I ever heard out of your mouth! The very idea of telling three women you love them! You're worse than a lecher! You apologize right now!" Lan had snatched his pipe from his mouth and was staring at Rand.

So the only connecting clue is to be Mayene geographical closeness to the last known whereabouts of Hawkwing's daughter? It's plausible, I suppose.

It's not the only connecting clue. It's just the one that invokes the Razor.

For the benefit of those of us who haven't read the Guide, do you mind telling me what the other clues were?

Mostly just the stuff we've already discussed. The quote that Luckers gave above also happens to mention the fact that the records agree that Hawkwing had no heirs:

While the Firsts of Mayene claim descent from Hawkwing, through a grandson named Tyrn, there is no evidence that any of Hawkwing’s blood survived him, and all surviving contemporary records state clearly that none did. On the other hand, given the state of affairs after Hawkwing’s death, any living descendant of Hawkwing would have been hidden away as a matter of safety.

The language here is strong - ALL contemporary records state CLEARLY that none of Hawkwing's heirs survived. Going back a little bit, we see why:

Hawkwing met Tamika late in FY 964 on his return from the Aiel Waste and married her one year later. Several sources speak of the Tamika Poems, saying that they showed a man every bit as much in love as in the Amaline Poems, but of course none of them survive. Tamika can certainly be credited for Hawkwing’s return to his earlier policies toward the conquered lands, possibly for several refinements in administration and taxation added after FY 965, and thus in large part for Hawkwing’s reputation as a great ruler. Their first son, Luthair Paendrag Mondwin, was born in FY 967. They had either three more children or four, but we know almost nothing of them. At least two of those children were daughters, for one commanded the “Shara expedition,” and a partial letter in the Royal Library in Cairhien says that “the great Hawkwing died less than an hour before the news arrived of the tragic deaths of his daughter Laiwynde and her son, the last of Hawkwing’s blood this side of the oceans.” Tamika herself died in FY 987; there is no record of the cause.

It is assumed that only Luthair's heirs survived, and this only because they know of the Seanchan. (In other words, these are some pretty dumb historians.) Going back a little more, we get the account of the Shara expedition:

Perhaps this brief war with the Trollocs made the martial juices rise again in Hawkwing, or perhaps the death of his second wife, Tamika, from unrecorded causes the autumn after Talidar reminded him of his own mortality. There is evidence that he began massive planning in the winter of FY 989. In FY 992, a force of incredible dimensions (sources vary widely, but a typical one claims two thousand ships of all sizes carrying over three hundred thousand soldiers and settlers) sailed into the Aryth Ocean from the western ports, under the command of Hawkwing’s son, Luthair Paendrag Mondwin. Its destination was Seanchan. Surely the world had never seen such a fleet, yet the following year Hawkwing sent out another, reportedly of equal size, from the southern ports. Much less is known of this fleet than of that led by Luthair Paendrag, only its destination was the lands known as Shara, among other names, and that it was under the command of a daughter of Hawkwing. The fate of the Seanchan expedition is all too well known, now, but of the Shara expedition there is only silence, beyond a few stories of the sort told in village taverns, claiming that Hawkwing conquered “lands beyond the Aiel Waste.” Sea Folk ships’ logs of that time do show that the landings were observed on the coast of Shara in FY 993. Other logs report seeing large numbers of ships burning in late FY 994, primarily in the same bays where the initial landings were recorded.

So, with barely any evidence worth mentioning, they assume that Hawkwing's daughter died in Shara. The beginnings of Mayene are apparently shrouded in some mystery as well, and there is no commentary on the grandson Tyrn, which makes it likely that his name wasn't recorded at all. The historians assume it was one of the unnamed grandchildren - two quotes above makes it clear the historians didn't even know the gender of all of his children, or how many there were, but the contemporary historians recorded the death of all the heirs save Luthair and the daughter who went to Shara. Clearly, that daughter had a son named Tyrn, and thus began the line of Mayene.

Like I said, the geographical location is far from the only clue. It's just the one that makes the evidence convincing.

Also, it's possible to put together from the above quotes that Ishamael was certainly behind all of this, probably including the deaths of his last living heirs. The coincidence on the timing is too much to ignore. It was important to Ishamael to destroy that empire:

"I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed."

Back to the BWB, we can see exactly when Ishamael started hanging about:

Very little is known of Moerad, though he appears in several sources, most notably in letters gathered in the Terhana Library in Bandar Eban. In FY 973 he appeared in Hawkwing’s court, making his first entry into history. Many at the time wondered about his background, and some who inquired too closely into it may have suffered fatal accidents. It is noted that Tamika was icily cold toward Moerad, if always correct, yet although Hawkwing trusted her counsel, by the late summer of FY 974 Moerad was one of the High King’s closest advisors. He maintained this position until Hawkwing’s death despite frequent long absences, a volatile temper, and a temperament that more than one observer recorded as “more than half insane.”

 

It is on that proximity of dates (late summer, Moerad became a counselor; early autumn, Hawkwing dismissed Aes Sedai from his service) and the startling fact that Moerad seemed openly contemptuous of Aes Sedai that all theories concerning him rest. Contempt is an odd stance toward Aes Sedai, and even those who hate Aes Sedai are wise enough to be discreet; yet such feelings are hardly enough to condemn him.

 

A partial manuscript (private collection in Andor), dated some twenty-three years after Hawkwing’s death, builds on these shaky facts. According to the writer, within days of Hawkwing’s demise Moerad was advising Marithelle Camaelaine. When she was assassinated, he supposedly began advising Norodim Nosokawa (again within days), and immediately after Nosokawa’s death in battle, Moerad appeared at Elfraed Guitama’s side. As these three came the closest to seizing the whole of Hawkwing’s empire in the twenty years after his death, Moerad obviously either was an advisor of great skill or a man with a keen eye for a winner. How these things are supposed to tie into responsibility for Hawkwing turning against Aes Sedai is unfortunately among the missing portions of the manuscript. An odd note: The writer claims that Moerad never aged from the day he first appeared to the day he vanished, abruptly, some forty years later. What that says of the source’s veracity is left to the reader.

When the planning for the expeditions began, Hawkwing had been under Ishamael's influence for 16 years. And then of course, there's this from Ishamael's bio, way back in the beginning of the book:

When the Dragon led the final strike against the Dark at Shayol Ghul, Ishamael may have been in some way only partially trapped by the seal on the Bore, leaving him aware and able to touch the world while the others slept within the seal - this according to a recently discovered tern manuscript attributed to Aran son of Malan son of Senar (born circa 50 AB). The manuscript, which was apparently incomplete at Aran’s death, is based largely on letters and diaries which Aran attributed to Aes Sedai who had lived during the Breaking of the World itself. These writings (unfortunately represented today only by small quotations within the manuscript) claim that there were sightings of, even encounters with, Ishamael after the bore was sealed, in fact perhaps as much as forty years after. In no case were the sightings by the women who wrote the diaries, but Aran apparently trusted them implicitly.

 

Such claims might be thought ridiculous except that Aran is known to have been a writer of strict honesty, one who never cited a source that he could not verify (though both his sources and the verification are long lost to us). He speculated (citing other lost sources) that it may have taken some years for Ishamael to be drawn fully into the trap with the other Forsaken. If this was so, it seemed possible that Ishamael might well be thrown out of the prison holding the others and drawn back again on some regular cycle. During his lifetime Aran made observations based on cycles of various multiples of forty years without discovering any indications that one of the Forsaken was loose in the world at those intervals.

 

The last pages of the manuscript suggest that Aran had become doubtful of his own thesis, but we have evidence that he may have been right. Interviews with imprisoned Darkfriends revealed that a number of them received instructions from Ishamael long before the other Forsaken were freed (an event generally agreed to have occurred in 997 or 998 NE, and to have been caused by the gradual weakening of the seals). Some claim to have received instructions from him as early as 983 NE, when plainly the seals were still strong enough to hold the others.

 

It seems entirely likely that Ishamael could have been free in still earlier times, and that the cycle was merely longer than Aran could observe. Certainly two periods of the greatest upheaval humanity has known since the Breaking of the World, the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years, would be likely times for one of the Forsaken to be free and working his malevolence. During the Trolloc Wars the name Ba'alzamon, later claimed by Ishamael, was used by a paramount leader, and later by other Dreadlords. No such connection exists during the War of the Hundred Years, but it is hardly impossible given the other evidence. Perhaps some future researcher will determine whether Ishamael was in fact responsible for those two disasters to humankind.

And of course, we are those brilliant researchers who have finally figured it all out.

The reason why so much effort was put into this business might possibly have something to do with the Seanchan plotline. Like Moiraine said, 'If the Dark One wants a thing, I oppose it. Can there be a simpler reason, or a better?' The Shadow wanted to destroy Hawkwing's dream of one land and one people because the Dark One wanted the world to be weak when the time came. And as minor as Berelain seems, she is a rather well-developed character. It's like the whole Berelain-Faile competition was just an excuse to keep her around and in the spotlight. I don't doubt that she will join the Imperial Family. How could we doubt that, after this?

"Serving girl? Serving girl! I am —" Faile bit her tongue to stop the furious words. The First of Mayene, indeed. There were estates in Saldaea larger than Mayene. She would not last a week in the courts of Saldaea. Could she recite poetry while hawking? Could she ride in the hunt all day, then play the bittern at night while discussing how to counter Trolloc raids? She thought she knew men, did she? Did she know the language of fans? Could she tell a man to come or go or stay, and a hundred things more, all with the twist of a wrist and the placement of a lace fan? Light shine on me, what am I thinking? I swore I would never even hold a fan again! But there were other Saldaean customs. She was surprised to see the knife in her hand; she had been taught not to draw a knife unless she meant to use it. "Farm girls in Saldaea have a way of dealing with women who poach others' men. If you do not swear to forget Perrin Aybara, I will shave your head as bald as an egg. Perhaps the boys who tend the chickens will pant after you, then!"

Only the Imperial Family shaves their heads completely. And Tuon is of course planning on re-filling the ranks of the Imperial Family. No doubt she would prefer an actual descendant of Hawkwing:

Galgan was a wide-shouldered fellow with a crest of white hair atop his head. The other members of the Blood deferred to him; they knew he had her favor. If things went well here and with the reclamation of Seanchan, there was a good chance she'd raise him to the Imperial family. The ranks of the family would need to be refilled, after all, once Fortuona returned and restored order. Undoubtedly, many had been assassinated or executed. Galgan was a valuable ally. He'd not only worked openly against Suroth, but had suggested the assault on the White Tower, which had gone well. Extremely well.

Perhaps Mayene has secret histories, and Berelain is aware that they are descended from the daughter sent to Shara. Perhaps there are no secret histories, but she figured it out on her own. Perhaps someone like Balwer will figure it out. But it will undoubtedly come into play in AMOL. I think the Shara element is necessary because the contemporary records are so clear on the fact that none of Hawkwing's heirs survived him.

It's not the only connecting clue. It's just the one that invokes the Razor.

Here is what the Guide says...

 

While the Firsts of Mayene claim descent from Hawkwing, through a grandson named Tyrn, there is no evidence that any of Hawkwing's blood survived him, and all surviving contemporary records state clearly that none did. On the other hand, given the state of affairs after Hawkwing's death, any living descendant of Hawkwing would have been hidden away as a matter of safety.

 

So it doesn't imply the daughter, so much as a grandson already present in the Westlands and hidden away upon Hawkwings death. Tyrn could be the child of any of Hawkwing's children--if the claim is true, of course.

 

Of course that doesn't rule out the daughter, and the daughter might theoretically explain the lack of records, if she survived the destruction of her fleet... *shrug*

The daughter is implied in the way of the BWB. That is, all of the pieces are not laid out for you clearly in the BWB, despite the fact that it appears to be a straightforward history. For instance, the clues about Moerad being Ishamael are spaced out so that you have to puzzle it out on your own (and feel like you are smarter than the historians who wrote it). It seems elementary to us now, but those pieces had to be put together. It's the same with Hawkwing's daughter and the Firsts of Mayene; they make it really clear for us despite not spelling it out for us. If Hawkwing's descendants had resurfaced in, say, Arad Doman, then the connection would not be so obvious.

The implication is that Berelain was descended from Hawkwing's daughter who was sent to conquer Shara just as Luthair was sent to conquer Seanchan. The point was supposed to be that none of Hawkwing's heirs would be around to claim his empire when he died; apparently the descendants of the daughter took some time to recover from the expedition. The claim of the Firsts is disputed because the records show that all of Hawkwing's heirs were killed; however, Luthair and the unnamed daughter disappeared before Hawkwing died, so they weren't accounted for in the murders that happened after Hawkwing's death.

We don't know much about the line of Manetheren - just a few names and a few stories, most of which can be found in TEOTW, either at Moiraine's speech about Manetheren or her later speech about Shadar Logoth. We know that the line is originally descended from Arad - presumably the king who joined the Second Covenant when the Ten Nations were formed - and we know a little about Aemon's father and mother, Caar and Rhea. Rhea was likely from the Borderlands, and her name is a parallel to the mother of the gods, which also goes for Rhea, sister of Rand's Aiel ancestor and possible matriarch of the Andoran royal line.

Yes, that was everybody's first theory after TGS came out. Many of us believe that it would be a very bad thing if Rand used the True Power again, though it's likely to happen if Moridin takes over his body. Many of us also believe it doesn't make much sense to try to seal the Dark One up with his own power. Seems like it would give him an automatic loophole.

Also, I would resist delving too deeply into the physics of WoT, seeing as how RJ has said that stars don't go supernova in his world.