On 11/3/2021 at 4:08 PM, MasterAblar said:

He's only ever with one at a time anyway and pretty much has no idea what going on most of the time anyway.

I think that's a good thing. Otherwise it really would feel like a harem. I would like to see the show focus more on what Elayne and Aviendha taught him and how they helped him. Each of the three women were very important to his development, but we see way more of Min's influence.

On 11/2/2021 at 3:15 PM, aclund3 said:

Egwene being Ta'veren makes a whole lot of sense based on what she accomplishes over the series. 

Actually, it takes away from her accomplishments because now she had t'avereness to help her.

8 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

 

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For those saying this is building up the potential arrogance of the Aes Sedai and that eventually they will be proven wrong or perspective shifting…I personally think this is wishful thinking. Again, it just feels like someone said, “how come it’s only men who can be the Dragon?” And then they made a half baked justification so everyone can be. Then they had to shoehorn in “maybe he is a woman now”, Which again is so unnecessary considering the awesomeness of all the characters in the series that are women and they accomplishments they have. Wasn’t Rand who countered balefire…it’s all the more impressive particularly since they are not Ta’veren. It just felt like a not so subtle political agenda insertion due to gender conversations these days and the gendered magic system was ordered to be struck down or altered. (And RJ can’t be here to say no. Which frequently happens with older properties.) 

Agreed. This series has so many AWESOME women, and as I said in another comment, Rand could not have succeeded without some of them. You don't need to diminish the men in order to exalt the women.

 

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This paired with the lame additions to Mat and Perrin’s backstory has me a bit prickly. Ohhh, we need everyone to potentially be the Dragon Reborn, annnnnd if it is a woman it will be EVEN better than if it’s one of the guys, oh also…make Perrin way shadier by letting his wife die and Mat shadier by giving him trashy garbage parents, but give no clues or any hint at all whatsoever that we will do anything of the sort like that to any of the female leads core character development. So…it’s socially acceptable to dump all over male leads and change their story from the way it was originally written?

I believe Perrin killing his wife will be an accident. But Mat's parents being trash? That totally ruins part of Mat's characterization, a big part. Yes, he's a scoundrel, but he's a scoundrel with a heart of gold who NEVER breaks his word because HE WAS RAISED WELL.

Whereas Egwene, who in the books, joins the party because she's immature and selfish and wants to go on an adventure, is now given a noble reason for leaving, to protect her village because she might be the DR. (Honestly, I don't even like Moiraine telling any of them about the DR. I liked the way it went in the books that the DO was after them but she wasn't sure why.)

8 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

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Another minor example of messing with a character I’m not thrilled about is Lan emoting as much as he did. All these are seriously weak additions that are lent specifically and only to the men, either due to post modern social norms and stereotypes or new “desired” traits. Subsequently everything that “elevates” someone goes towards the women. And it’s not one or the other that bother me it’s the coupling of these things that’s so frustrating and makes it more glaring. 

I don't like Lan's display of emotion either. I understand why they did it, but they could have accomplished the same thing by showing Moiraine physically feeling Lan getting wounded. One AS in the books stated that she felt every wound her warder took before he died.

8 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

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I think dudes have some right to be angry. It’s becoming more and more socially acceptable to screw with their moral character on screen, but not to do so with the women counterparts? (I’m looking at you Disney)

I agree, and I'm not a dude!! Come on, men mistreated and disrepected women for hundreds of years, yes. But now we're going to correct that by dumping on men? No, it doesn't work that way.

8 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

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I will also clarify this is based on what I’ve seen so far and this could change when I see the show, but as of now I’m not super thrilled. Lastly, I think they are leaning into the whole, “it’s a new spinning of the wheel”, way too much to cover for their iffy alterations. It’s manipulating book readers to placate them against these changes. To me it’s a lovely crutch of an excuse for lackluster changes. Making Perrin kill a fake wife isn’t condensing plot. It’s complicating it further. In truth, it could come back to bite them plot wise later.

 

I have been very generous and open minded about changes over the last year and a half. But as they pile up, I am becoming less generous. They don't necessarily point to lots of unnecessary changes that significantly change the story, but there is a good possibility they do. I have to wait and see, but I am going into this with much lower expectations. If I'm wrong, then I'll be thrilled.

16 hours ago, Guire said:

So then the world like early Mo may have this incomplete conflicting idea of Dragon. 

But she heard the foretelling. Book Moiraine and Siuan( and every other Aes Sedai sent out looking for the DR) knew he was a boy, so now we need to make another change--the foretelling.

10 hours ago, Indil said:

They can very well just mention the female counterpart of the Dragon for the sake of woke and feminism, instead of making the Dragon possibly a female. Which leads to all sorts of inconsistency in world building they'll have to fix, and irritating book nerds like me.

Well, actually they can't because they wouldn't remember that there is a female savior in some ages. We only know that because RJ said it. So, since they can't credit women with being the savior in other ages, we have to change this one. Never mind how many very powerful, impactful women there are in the story already, without some of whom, Rand would never have accomplished his goal.

10 hours ago, Morani said:

But how on earth would people in randland know this for a fact?

Dunno. How do they know they are reincarnated or that there is a wheel and a pattern? The catechism has been handed down through the ages. Not everything has been forgotten.

9 hours ago, Borderlander said:

I don't believe RJ ever definitively answered the question of exactly how alike are the Ages when they come again. Is every single molecule in the world the same, every name, every spoken word, every blade of grass in every field, every cloud in the sky, every thought in every person's head? My impression was alwasy to the contrary; not everything is the exact, carbon-copy same. Names might changes. Minor 'plot' points might change. The same ta'veren souls might be spun back out, yes, but how they navigate from Point A to Point B might change. 

Actually, he did. In TWoRJWoT, says that the Pattern of the Age forms the substance of reality for that age. This design is predetermined by the Wheel and can only partially be changed by those lives which make up the threads within the weave. Which means there is variation each time the same age comes again. Also, With every pass the changes vary to an increasingly greater degree.

The most important people of an age, who drive the major events, will always be spun out again, but they won't be exactly the same as they were the last time that age came around.

Also, there is Artur Hawkwing's comment to Rand, I think, at Falme, that he has gone by many different names.

So I would say your impression is correct.

8 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

They really want to lean into the question: Who is the Dragon? 

I think that's a stupid thing to lean into. Others disagree. But I would argue this isn't a compelling question.

 

I'd rather they lean into: why is the possibility of being the Dragon (a Savior figure) such a fear to the three boys. And how would small town (backwoods, ignorant, set in their ways) people react to being told, "Come on this journey to save the world!"

Anyone who has listened to the audio books has likely heard the interview with RJ about how he came to write the books. And he said, he had begun to question how an average person would respond to "You're the savior of the world." So that is indeed the idea he started the series with.

8 hours ago, Agitel said:

I think the main motivation for allowing the Dragon Reborn to possibly be reborn as a woman (even if that doesn't happen) is that soul-gender essentialism and the idea that the savior metaphysically has to be a man are not kosher in today's world,

So the show panders.

8 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Everyone knew from the beginning this is "an adaptation", that they were going to (and had to) cut content, and compress the story for television. This often includes "liberties" of expanding side characters to help fill in the gaps between the main characters storylines that sit around doing nothing for 4 books except mope about trying to find their lost wife.

 Cutting out and compressing, expanding side characters are one thing. None of that is changing basic world lore. Maybe this will be the only change. But when they make one, you can't help wondering if they're going to make more.

18 hours ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

Ripple effects: So if the Aes Sedai do truly believe the dragon could be male or female, then presumably most everyone in the world thinks the same. So with this change, there should be plenty of false female dragons, right? Not even just women who can channel but just women seeking greater political power. Especially if there is this concept of people actually hoping  for a female dragon, like is being suggested here. Imagine the effects on the world's history. Further, imagine the effects on Aes Sedai history and politics (scheming Aes Sedai believing they might be the dragon)...

 

I'd prefer not to imagine any of that because I really liked the story as written. Guess I'll be hoping Rafe's "Spiral Snakey Thing of Time" inspired by (that's looking to be a better term than adapted from) Jordan's The Wheel of Time still turns out to be an enjoyable watch...

WOW!!! I never even thought of that. That would be absolutely awful!!

3 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

Yes some people might assume that, but they would have been wrong. The initial point @Agitel was making is that the female Aes Sedai were not to blame for the taint. The DO's counterstroke would have happened even if they'd helped. 

Yes, I understand. But in the books, the female AS had no way of knowing that for sure that I can recall, and therefore could't rightfully put all the blame on the male AS since they refused to even try to help. They didn't know the DO was going to backlash and taint saidin, did they?

23 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Also, maybe we shouldn't be looking at is as Moiraine being made woke. Maybe instead we should look at it as proof that the women of show-WOT will be as full of it as their book counterparts. That's exactly how many of the Aes Sedai and even just women look at men, and why the "wonder girls" are seen as insufferable. 

 

More to be said there, but I got to sign off.

I don't see it as Moiraine herself being made woke. And showing how full of themselves the Aes Sedai are? Yeah! All for that! But it means they have to learn that the Dragon never could have been a female for it to really serve that purpose. And like I said in a previous comment, that's the only way I can think of that would make me accept that change at the beginning.

10 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

What if they added some prophecies about Egwene and Nynaeve (maybe even Elayne and Aviendha) using female pronouns. But have it unclear they aren't actually about the Dragon.

 

I mean 

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Egwene sacrifices herself to repair the pattern and arguably saves the world in doing so.

 

Even if they include the existing prophesies with the male pronoun, wouldn't the addition of something like that be enough to sow some doubts with Moiraine, without it actually being possible the DR could be female?

But then we drift even further from the original story. That's the problem with changes. They have a ripple effect, so you have to be very careful about what you change.

For instance, in LoTR movies: Aragorn's character was changed from a leader ready to assume his throne to a reluctant leader afraid of his human weakness. But he does his duty always and still helps to save Gondor and becomes king. But, change Sam's unwavering loyalty to Frodo, and Frodo never makes it to Mount Doom, and Sauron wins.

11 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

It's canon that Rand used the True Power as a glove to prevent the Dark One from backlashing on the saidar and saidin he was channeling to heal the Bore. The DO had to be "pushed" back from the Bore so he could heal it, meaning the One Power he was using would have been in contact with the DO and vulnerable if he hadn't used the True Power as a glove.

 

If Rand hadn't been linked with Moridin, and if Callandor wasn't "flawed", Rand's plan wouldn't have worked.

Oh, wow. I never realized he was using the True Power as a glove. Thanks for the insight! But until Rand figured that out, no one knew for sure that Lews Therin's plan wouldn't have worked if the female AS had helped, right? Because they always did their best work when men and women worked together, it was logical to assume that it might have worked.

23 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It is given a backwoods sheepherder who is destined to go insane.

It's hilarious, when you put it that way!

7 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Last one, but LOLOLOLOL 

 

So man hating comes to the Wheel of Time. Let's just ignore the actually lore of the world we're adapting in which the only reason that women were not present when Lews Therin tried to seal away the Dark One is because all the female Aes Sedai formed the Fateful Concord and refused to go with him even after their plan to use the Cheoken Kal had failed and there was no other option. The female Aes Sedai's hubris and unwillingness to work with men is directly the cause of the tainting of Saidin and the Breaking of the World.

 

But I guess having women make mistakes is too problematic an idea to fly in 2021, so we'll just rewrite it to say that everything is the men's fault. 

 

Holy crap. 

Welcome to the woke world of 2021. And people wonder why we're worried Rafe's feminism is influencing the way the show is written. (And I'm a woman, just so you know.)

42 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

If women had been present, saidar would have been tainted as well, and the world even more doomed. Their Concord saved the world from that. Rand was only able to protect the One Power by using the True Power as a glove.

Is that canon? I don't recall that ever being said. My impression of it was always that if the women had helped, it might actually have succeeded and there would have been no backlash, thus no taint on any part of the OP.

2 hours ago, Rose said:

it was always a bit weird that in the wake of a literal Trolloc attack destroying her village, Egwene was all "lalalala let's go on a fun adventure!!!". It came off as pretty childish to me,

It was, that was the whole point. She had a lot of growing up to do and she needed to do it fast. They're cutting some of character development.

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

RJ said in some turnings the "saviour" is the soul of Amaresu.

But Amaresu isn't the Dragon. In the third age, it's the Dragon who is reborn and is the savior, and that is the crux of The Wheel of Time series set in the third age. Make it Amaresu, and it's a different story in a different age, not the one we all love.

3 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Having a female Dragon could be justified by the lore, but at that point, we're not talking about a WoT adaptation anymore. We're talking about a fanfic, a really high budget fanfic.

Totally agree. I was under the impression that we were getting an ADAPTATION of WoT, not a fan fic. In fact, I specifically remember RJ saying in an interview that he did not approve of WoT fan fic. He said it is HIS work and he expects people to respect that. (Not those exact words.)

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

I am finding it difficult to understand why this has provoked such a strong reaction.

I don't find it difficult at all. Up until now I have been very generous about changes and taking a wait and see attitude. But now we're talking about potentially changing the basic world lore. That has me VERY concerned. If they are willing to change basic lore, what else are they gonna change?

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

Is it possible there is a little bit of confirmation bias going on, that people who see a gay liberal self-declared feminist showrunner automatically assume that his decisions will follow his dogma which is very different from theirs? Then when minimal changes are seen to have occurred, with fairly clear and understandable reasons, they see this as yet another example of what they were already expecting? 

Yes, it is possible. But I think it is possible, if not probable, that his world view is going to affect his decisions. (Already we see his fave, Egwene, leaving EF for a noble reason--to protect the village--instead of an immature desire for adventure, not caring that she is giving Moiraine yet one more person to worry about.)

But I have to argue that this is a minimal change with fairly clear and understandable reasons. The not knowing whether it's a boy or a girl was not needed to throw the audience off about who the DR candidates are. "One of the 4 of you" would have done the job just as well, and would have been perfect Aes Sedai dancing around the truth.

The only way I can see that I personally would accept this is that Aes Sedai do not know that the ability to channel saidar is attached to a woman's soul, and that the ability to channel saidin is attached to a man's soul, but that this is revealed as part of the world lore somehow.

8 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

You know, the other day I was at a Halloween party, and this guy said he was Ted Lasso, but when I pulled on his mustache it came right off! 

So we're not supposed to be able to trust that when the show runner says he's doing an adaptation that is really what he intends? I never knew fan fic was synonymous with adaptation.

5 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

If it were an adaptation of The Wheel of Time, it might bother me, but why get mad at a fanfic?

Because they said it was an adaptation of WoT, not a fan fic.

17 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

Yeah, I think this can go either way, but I will reserve judgment. I think it’s a misdirect to draw out the mystery, but then again there are some staggering rumors going around about characters so maybe they do start editing lore too? We will have to wait and see. 

After seeing the new clip today, I think we've seen. ?

On 10/27/2021 at 2:52 PM, JaimAybara said:

The “one of you four” becoming, “one of you five”, doesn’t change the linguistic argument being had here a single iota. One of them being the Dragon Reborn is still true, it can still be misconstrued as including the ladies as well. Let’s just wait and see what it actually looks like when it drops. The Trollocs were fantastic and I’m digging the costume design the more I see of it in context. 

Perhaps this has already been mentioned (I am only on pg 4 of all the comments), but for one, the "five" is dubbed if you look closely. (On Amazon Prime page it states one of 4.) It's not what she is saying. Also, it goes from Moiraine narrating "the dark one has woken, but one person can stand against him, etc." to her actually saying "one of the five of you".  She probably does say one of the 4 of you so she can have an excuse to drag Egwene along, but It's possible that snippet of dialogue was plucked out of a completely different sentence.

On 10/27/2021 at 12:25 PM, DojoToad said:

They cut it off for time.  Otherwise those fireballs later on are illegal.

Really. Can you imagine a non book fan having to sit through that long ass oath in a trailer?

I listen to the audio books before bed, so for the last year and a half I've been on a continual loop. I had planned to reread the first couple books though.

On 9/3/2021 at 2:50 PM, Beidomon said:

Pros:

- Could have been so much worse.

- I think Rand/Perrin/Mat all look pretty great.

- The action stuff looks high quality.

- The baddies look great.

- We're gonna see plenty or Reds and Logain in S1, which will be welcome additions.

- Shadar Logoth looks great.

- Egwene actually looks better than I thought. I'm less worried about her.

- What music there was sounded pretty great.

 

Cons:

- The faces, costumes, and colors look kinda YA-TV in my opinion. This and the W word are my biggest worries now.

- Several scenes in the trailer are adding content to S1 that wasn't in the books - and that's fine (see Logain) - as long as it's good content. But I dunno about the whole paint pool and shoving into river stuff.

- Not sold on Nynaeve's look and accent. We will see.

- Lan looks a little too young.

- Rand and Nyn are gettin' bizay. Not sure about that at all.

I think the EF boys look great! Especially when Mat smiles--he looks perfect. And he even tosses dice on the table!

What were you worried about with Egwene?

The  30-40 something AS look YA to you? I think some of the costumes are just a trend away from medieval looking dresses to coats and pants. Not a fan of the huge shoulders on a few of the dresses, but aside from that Siuan's dress is gorgeous. The Ajah colors in the collar is a great touch.

Ny's accent? She said 2 words. She wouldn't be smiling approvingly if she saw Rand and Egwene later though! (Not crazy about that either.)

Lan looks great, but a little gray at his temples wouldn't hurt.

I think the paint pool is Egwene's first prophetic dream.

On 9/4/2021 at 6:48 AM, Guire said:

No scars in books on face.  I just meant something to make him look like a man who has spent his life fighting an unwinnable war.  Some of it is just Henny is pretty like I said.  I will get used to it but I come from a military family.  I know what old soldiers look like.  Hopefully Henny can capture that.

But he has an Aes Sedai to heal his injuries so it makes sense he doesn't have any visible scars. He's been with her for 20 years so any scars he got before (unless REALLY bad) would have faded.

It's okay that he doesn't LOOK like Lan, as long as he acts like Lan, and that will incude stony facial expressions. Daniel Henney is actually about the same age as Lan. And as a woman, I am very happy to have some serious male eye candy.

On 9/4/2021 at 3:47 PM, king of nowhere said:

The trailer starts immediately with egwene being thrown off a cliff, and it has a few more sequences of that,

I think book fans should understand the scene of Egwene coming up out of the water, even if not immediately.

And the Logain scenes, with the exception of Moiraine, Lan and Nyaneave being there, shouldn't come as such a great surprise because we do hear about the battle.

On 9/4/2021 at 7:15 PM, king of nowhere said:

just saying that at times it was confusing. and for a fan not used to it, it would be even more confusing

The whole Witcher series was confusing on first watch, and it was a great success! I'm sure the second trailer will give us a better overall understanding of the story. This one was meant to be exciting.

On 9/4/2021 at 6:56 PM, johnnysd said:

I am actually not sure I will watch the second trailer.

I'm waiting for the second trailer and then I'm gonna send both to my kids and my friends who were in GoT.