trust me i'm QUITE FAMILIAR with the JUdaic version of god and in the Bible description of how God treated my ancestors :))))

and if u notice beeing god chosen ants -> AINT FUN :)))

"do wrong in the eye of god ---> punished" is quite a repeatable thme in he bible :)))

the main problem with Nakomi beeing the Creator/ Patern Avatar is her meeting with Avienda

why the world (creator/pattern / cosmos..) will care about 1 speicific tribe ???

do u play favorites with the scale in your hair/ or the ants in your backyard ... ???

the meeting with Avi had NO EFFECT on the great battle !!!

her vision show the great battle was WON even if she do nothing after the meeting .

and if u claim the creator do care in such details... please explain the existenc of any bad thing /evil empire... that exist in Rand univerce.

i agrea it relay on the ability to bluff.

but could the sea folk took the risk ???

and is the argument -> "the DO playing with the weather , we need your help to fix it , but if u dont want to help we will try anyway " is really a bluff ???

wasnt the sea folk -> " we dont care about the weather and wont help u unless a+b+c+d+e...." a much bigger and much harder to believe bluff ???

i could easily see -> we help u and keep the bowl in return deal.

but we keep the bowl + u give us slave teachers + we get dominion over u and who u sent (like the demand that Nyn will teach and not another AS) + other terms i currently dont remember....  way too much

the Jen Aiel was the only Aiel tribe with AoL AS.

and Aiel tradition DONT prevent channelers from  marriege and child bearing.

so personally i see no problem with a small Jen Aiel tribe with AoL knowledge channelers surviving .

also ruhidein (sp?) forest of crystal tar'angeril dont seem like the kind of thing u move a round on wagons so it stand to reason the Jen Aiel constructed these Tar'angeril which indicate they may have access to much better viewing of the future and past then what the prophecies provided the rest of he world.

the rason i'm still inclined to Nakomi beeing a prior cycle person /soul /reflection.. is that i get a been there done that , wive from her.

author words are final decrea :)

shame it was a really nice theory :))

ithink Nakomi is a person with knowlege far behind these age.

the main reason i dont accept a manifistation of the wheel is due to her talk with Avi, the wheel is neutral it will take no side in which ANT COLONY rule supreme.(even a totally evil sanchean colony).

i now tend to think Nakomi is either a prior age Moirain (sp?) an eternal guide and teacher of the dragon (or to seal Morcoock term) to the eternal champion.

or a Genn Aiel AS with either inverted weaves or ancient and enlighten enough to learn a new way to wield power.

may i ask where it was aid the dsragon was alway male , always as in every cycle and every age ?

about only 1 champion of light soul -> Rand and LTT co existed for a time and cant a prior champion soul or a tleast a speicific part of it exist OUTSIDE of the patern waiting for the new champ soul to take it place ?

this deal bother me as well.

as mentioned before Nyn and Elaine KNOW that the bowl was an artifact of GREAT value to the Windfinder.

but there another point that ppl ignore that make these deal even more horrible.

the sea falk leave ON THE WATER !

they are much more VULNERABLE to bad weather then anyone else

all Nyn and Ellaine had to do was to claom : o.k we wil;l try and play with the global wather in a try and error method , what the worst that can happen -> storms ? , Hurican?... it not like we are the ppl who leave on the sea.

i hadnt readed all the 18 pages of prior discussion in this thread, so i apology if i repeat or reopen a close issue.

Dirty_Bird said it first and i 90% agrea with.

i think Nakomi is the last cycle dragon.

my 1st theory about Nakomi was that she was a Jenn Aiel, but after MoL i believe she is a prior dragon.

the wheel go in a cycle : a no DO age who end in the release of the DO -> a DO influenced age who end in his recapture -> a rebuild age who end in FORGETTING the DO existed -> ano DO age...

i think Nakomi was the dragon in the last cycle (i dont agrea with the take care position that Dirty_Bird theorize but that my opinion :)   ),  i think she was beeing able to manifest before Avi is due to the warder connection she had with Rand and (personal opinion) the Aiel to my believe are the last dragon ppl/nation...

i tought about White for Galad, but white is more about LOGIC then about LAW.

so i percieve white is 2nd option after Gray/ Green :)

i would enjoy seeing Galad discovered as Channeler :)

it seem like a nice ending to his endavour to re-educate his idiots :)

progress so fer : work with channeler to save the world -> talk BEFORE you charge -> work with ppl who have strange abilities ->check if a person is guilty or not BEFORE you judge-> accept healing from channeler -> work UNDER ppl with strange abilities -> Galad as channeler: have a channeler as yoyr commander.

also i dont think there more deserving Char to get such power , he is by far the most Ethic char in the book :)

btw if Galad could channel what Aja u think is best for him.

i'm torn between Grey (as judge more then diplomat) or Green

what make u think the WF are provincial ???

they travel and interact more then any other society in Randland.

true Taleen wanted to run, but it wasnt to run TO the WT is was to run FROM the WF who abused her just to show there is no favoratism.

and remember Egy assumption that the WF sisters will run back to the seafalk and that after YEARS of beeing in WT.

the Aiel also not as provincial as u percieve, remember the peddler scene where it was shown that they have knowledge and understanding about the wetland /prices / quality of products....

and again Traveling change ALOT.

if u had the ability to go everywhere in the world in a blink of an eye, will you leave in the city center of in your home with family and friends.

about WT training beeing a breeze...

is it a good thing ???

will u prefare to learn in a party college or in an Ivy League college ?

will u prefare to learn in a place that hold you back , or in a place that push you and allow you faster and greater access to the one power.

and will you prefare a society that value your skill and brain or a society that value your muscle (one power streangth) ?

.

Mudd

i fear your logic have 1 fundamental flow.

u assume that WT is the HEIGHT of modern society and that the WF /Aiel live in 3rd world condition.

where it say so ???

the WF are a culture of MERCHENTS , very successfull merchect (probably the best in the world) why u assume they leave in bad conditions ?

we only seen them on buisness trips , we dont know how well they leave when at their homes.

how worse is the life of an Aiel wiseone in compare to Tar-Valon ??

there no electricity or moden utilities in Randland so there no discomfort of missing it.

with Traveling the distance is not relavent anymore so no discomfort about beeing cut off from the world, or from lacking access to certain products/groceries.

u tlk about the glamour of TV , but what about Ruheidin , give the Ogeir few years and Aiel Channelers and u got a city who can compete with any other city in this area as well.

that why your analogy of Europe/USA and the 3rd world countries dont apply here

(and that WITHOUT entering political things like civil rights , goverments systems, religion and state...)

Lan

Nyn

Perrin

Mat

Sureila

every FEMALE single char is more accurate Yos :)

Perrin needed to be dragged into learning dreamwalking :)

and when he finally show interest his teacher help pushing him -> here a nightmare jump in and try to survive :)))

and i dont think the BT preach patience and safety in his curicilum :))

i feel the debate is railing into the extreme.

to say Egy did no good is rediculus.

she DID reunited the WT.

she DID HURT the black Aja

she DID destroyed a forsaken.

and she did have good scenes (the WT captivity /wise one training was the bests in my opinion).

but the fact that a char do good things DONT make it a likeable char.

compare Avi to Egy

Avi developed into a wise one.

she is respected but she DONT take over Amys , she show respect to the current wise one and acknowledge their age /experience and wisdom.

you can forsea that she will grow to be the next leader (probably hace relation with Amys like Amys have with Sur now), but her growth dont come in expence of others and you are shown her weaknesses and her streangth

Egy rosed by Siuan to be Emiralin, immidately bully into the position, start ordering everyone around.

after her rising Suian (decades of expewrience, leaving in Salidar for month , knowing all the key ppl for decades) tell her her plan which is almost exact (slightly better in few fine points) to the plan Egy who just arrived to Salidar and who hardly (if at all) know the key char come with.

another example -> Bridgette Silver bow a LEGENDARY hero of the horn, a LEGEND for milenias

avi reaction to Bridg -> respect mingled with determination to hold your own , mingled in awe

Egy reaction -> u stuipd girl hide it from me, now stop acting silly and confess.

i think Egy prob is not her beeing bage, but a lack of a co star.

think Nyn with and without Elain / Lan.

Think mat before and after Talmanes/Thom

Elain with and without Nyn/Avi

Siuan with and without Lean (sp?)

Egy need a character /PoV to balance her, to emphesize her glory and to point out her shortcoming and to ligh when she fall on her face becouse she kept her nose up.

u forget that Rand and Perrin had other thing to worry about.

ambition is based on making a better future.

Rand dont think he have any future -> hard to be ambitious when u believe u die in few weeks (and even then he tried to leave a Legacy/be remembered)

Perrin was fearing he will turn into a wolf -> hard to plan for the future when u dont know if u still be human tomarrow .

notice how Perrin accept lordhood and refused to give it up or to surrender TR autonamy (his rule) after he reached inner peace.

"If egwene is arrogant then what was elaida?"

so we should let all the thieves/robbers/ rapist/ murderer/pimps..... free couse they not as worse as a LUNATIC serial muderer ???

yup Egwene is less arogent then Elaida (really 'hard' achivment) , she is also much saner then her (even the Red admit Elai went mad), that dont mean Egwene is not arrogent.

and instead of fixating on -> u dont like Egw it must be becouse u are Rand fanboy, please adress points like how Egwene treat Siuan and Nyn.

or how come every AS suddenly become a Moron without any self control so she could be shone as a shining beacon of wydsom in EVERY area of life. (still dont buy an AS going to Ege about how to deal with an Aging warder).

yup Egw HAD good scene, and there been situation i (and i believe most of her disliker) rooted for her and even warmed to her.

but this situation are the exeption and usually follow by her Usual i'm Ameralin u must obey and all u puny AS i can read u like a book -> obey puppets

there a diffrence between dislike and hate.

cant talk for others , but i have no hate for Egw i simply dont like her.

another part of why is becouse the way she portraid as better then the rest.

i liked her when she was with the Wise one and i enjoy her solo adventure in the WT. (altough i really dont like how most of the AS been written)

but this are the exeption and not the norm in regard to Egw.

i dont mind char flow but i dont like when the char flow are shown as merits.

i think what Egw lack the most is a PoV from a side spectator who pass objective commantery.

take Nyn for example i really warmed to Nyn during her advanture with Elain.

where u been given Elain view of her and instead of remaining a 2 dimensional char -> angry pushy strong channeler, we got a view of the person inside.

smart and strong willed but having trouble to admit when she wrong , stingy but capable to great generocity. her acting near Lan...

u get a full person there merits and flows, i dont get a full person from Egw

with all due respect (as was clear if u readed my post) not all Egwenr dislike are Rand fan.

for me it about her disrespect toward her mentors Nyn/Siuan and her out of controll arrogence.

and its about how every AS portraid as an idiot just so that the 18 year old wonder GIRL could be seen as a wise genius ! ,like how she give a brown sitter advice on how to deal with a warder getting old, which i found as a streatch that a young girl who never had serious relationship yet, never had a warder yet, and hadnt deal with the affect of old age on ppl (Bran hadnt shown any effect of old age limiting him) can advice an AS who is much older and much more experienced then her, and even if the AS needed help why would she go to Egw in the first place.

since it 23 long thread pleae forgive me for not reading the entire thread before posting.

there 2 things the bug me about Egwene

1 her fault the other is circumstencial.

the first is her arrogence.

one of the scene that reaaly annoy me was in Salidar, Suian the former Emiralin, Egewene mentor, the woman who is legendary in politic and intrigue, tell Egwene that there a strange pattern in salidar sitter choosing , and the mighty baby from her vast experiment of 18/19 years and months of starting to learn politic not only dismiss this but literally thnking about ordering Suian what to think.

personally i found it as the height of arrogence.

the second is:

i reaaly dont like how the AS was written down to protrait Egwene as so mighty, woman who have centuriews of political experiment acting like blind idiots without any shred of logic just so Egwene simple solutions will shine brightly.