The pattern doesn't make you good at your job or not, if you are incompetent its not the patterns fault. 

 

Moghi whole purpose in AMOL never made much sense to me.  The whole spying on Tuon instead of just balefiring her and being done with it.  She easily could of used the TP blasted tuon and used the tp way of traveling and of been gone before anyone knew it.  or used compulsion on the death watch guards and has them assassinate her.  Like many of the chosen when it came down to it they seemed rather inept, not many of them lived up to their scary reputation.

 

Only way off hand I can think of her being really beneficial to the light was when she was captured. But in the end like when I mentioned once how the plan to trap Rand in Tear seemed needlessly complicated and elaborate.  I was told that's how RJ wrote it and if they just appeared by Rand and killed him it would be a very short series.  So I doubt the pattern was ruining moghi's plans and schemes.  She attempted some things like I am pretty sure it was her that impersonated Sam to send trollocs after Rand but her biggest failing is she was a coward.

Mog was not inept. She seemed quite intelligent and cunning based on everything I see her doing in the series. Her being a coward is what gave her her power in a way. It made her cautious and careful in a lot of respects.

And the Pattern not screwing with her? She would've killed Nynaeve but pigeons threw her aim off the second she fired. The timing meant that HAD to have been the pattern. She also led to Birgitte becoming Elayne's warder by bringing her out of the world of dreams. I considered that a pretty awesome moment for her though. Especially considering she had just been hit with an arrow at the time.

The pattern didn't give rand access to the TP, either the DO did as a way to try and tempt Rand or it was because of his link with Moridin.  I believe the DO set Semi up then allowed Rand through his link with Moridin to get the TP and kill her in hopes the seductive nature of the TP and wanting revenge would be what makes Rand join the shadow.  The pattern didn't allow Rand to suddenly access the TP in order to save him.  The pattern is about balance but as we saw at the end with Rand's perfect world, the pattern also is about freedom of choice.  If Rand had joined the shadow the pattern couldn't suddenly spin out a new champion.  In some cases yes by being tav'ern the pattern will force him along a certain path and may provide things here and there he might need.  The pattern didn't try and save Rand when semi fired off a fireball at him and it didn't save him from Semi capturing him. 

What about Mogehdien then? She's an intelligent shadow warrior and yet all she does is end up being beneficial to the Light side in one way or another. Did she have no chance of winning?

So I still can't decide this. How much did the Pattern plan out in this series? Because it still bothers me how it can meticulously plan for stuff even though it involves the Dark One's direct interference (like being able to save Rand from Semirhage via Rand having access to the True Power) Semi was only released because of the direct actions of Shaidar Haran, a subset of the Dark One. So how did the Pattern plan for that?

I keep trying to give the story the benefit of the doubt and I'm trying to convince myself that the PAttern didn't do EVERYTHING but I keep thinking that the implication is that it did. And that would make this series awful if it did. That means there was no danger or risk or tension if I could be confident that the Pattern had planned a fool proof method of victory for literally every single thing that happened without fail.

The only film I've ever walked out on is Iron Man 3. So I guess I could call it the worst purely judging by how violently I reacted to it. XD

I still say Aiel as "Ale" rather than "Eye-eel" because I keep thinking a culture like them would have a single syllable name. Pragmatic and all that.

So when a channeler creates a flow of something. are they creating that element from scratch? or does it do something like create a flow which only interacts with that particular element?

Like, if a channeler was  trapped somewhere with limited air and water, Could they use flows of water and flows of air to keep themselves alive?

Are there any Chanelers who are strong but unskilled?

Like, there are two tropes on tv tropes. Unskilled but strong and Weak but skilled. and they mean pretty much what they imply.

I was just curious if I've missed something. It seems that all channeleres who are strong in the  power are also prodigies when it comes to memorizing and utilizing weaves as well. Is this an actual thing intended by RJ and BS or is it just that all the main characters are amazing because they're main characters?

then how do you explain all the stuff that's set up for them? All of the stuff that had to have been set into motion years in advance to get them where they are now. People who happen to own things and set out in odd directions and gave certain maps to others that eventually end up with perrin. That is not feedback or reacting to something that happened. That's actively taking steps to reach a desired outcome down the line. The PAttern made it so that Rand could take over the Aiel via prophecies (even predicting that the news would break them) and did something similar with the Sea Folk. Why not the Seanchan too?

So it made those seanchan prophecies and just ignored the part where Ishamael corrupted them? It couldn't see the effects in advance? I say nay. Because the Pattern started churning out powerful channelers in preparation for the release of the Forsaken. So it can plan ahead and predict things like that. Whatever calculations it was running should've also seen the damage the Seanchan would cause in it's current state if they returned on the horizon of the Last Battle. It's meant to be a powerful learning computer.

From my understanding, the Pattern can spin out taveren at any time and at any place.

There might have been at least one taveren on the Seanchan continent during the mentioned time and no one knowing about it.

Not sure if a taveren on that continent could have changed their behavior towards the Dragon Reborn (or towards anyone on main continent).

 

The main goal of the Pattern (if it has goals) would be that there be balance.  taveren are spun out when things start to become unbalanced.

I'd call conflict against the saviour of the pattern and harming his chances of winning in the last battle to be pretty darn unbalanced

The Seanchan and the damage they caused was one of Ishy's most brilliant schemes. Usually you like that sort of thing from your villains Emperor.

 

As for the pattern, that's not really how it works.

I still wanna know HOW the patterns works. It can apparently set things YEARS in advance. and can predict events. and can maneuver peopleinto advantageous positions. If Ishy tricked or subverted the Pattern then I want to know exactly how he did it. If I don't know, then I can't be happy about him doing it.

Why didn't the Pattern do something to deal with the Seanchan during the many years between their departure and their return? Like create a Ta'veren within the seanchan empire to make them more benevolent towards the Dragon Reborn when he's born. (the rest of reality contrived itself to make helping the Dragon Reborn a priority after all. Look at the Aiel and the Sea Folk)

I know the Pattern used MAt to deal with it when they arrived. But not before they caused a heap ton of conflict and weakened the Forces of Light considerably. Wouldn't the pattern have wanted to minimize damage as much as possible before the final battle? It's not like they haven't contrived a crap ton of other stuff years in advance.

In either book 6 or 7, did Sammael actually manage to persuade Graendal into working with him?

Like did his ploy of sending that rigged messenger to Rand actually work in making Graendal think he might genuinely have the upper hand? Or was that all manipulation on her part?

Cuz I could've sworn he was legitimately in charge of their alliance for at least a limited time.

I thought the idea was meant to be that behind his overwhelming arrogance Sammael actually did have considerable brains, just not as many as he thought he had

Is it more or does it seem like Ishamael hasn't actually done much since the series began?

He killed a Ta'veren in Hawkwing. He started the trolloc wars and kept the world in this sorry state but since the series began he's been doing bugger all but fail. He was said to be saner as Moridin but he still hasn't been doing much and he's angry ALL the time.

Isn't he meant to be smart? Wasn't he all "Rand is dancing to my tune"

I was getting excited for a second there I thought he was up to something competent.

 

and people like Cads never gets her moment

 

RAFO

 

If someone gives Cads the same kind of treatment Nynaeve gets starting around Fires of Heaven I will shave myself bald save for a topknot and go out to fight the blight myself

 

Why can't Egwene be dressed down once successfully? I don't get how I'm supposed to be invested in her if she's unstoppably amazing at everything, almost always wins, and doesn't seem to flinch when she doesn't. And no one has ever been able to score any kind of win against her. Even when she's stuck as a damn novice she's still successfully dressing down Aes Sedai without any effort!

Very vague spoilers:

she does eventually get subdued physically/locked up, but no, she never 'mentally' breaks.

 

 

I think the problem with Egwene is that she had her low-point (mentally and emotionally) very early in the series when she was damane in book 2.  From that point onwards her arc is pretty much a climb up.  Even her Novice time doesn't dent her self-confidence an inch.  Many of the other characters have the knocks to their confidence much later (e.g. Rand from LoC-tGS, Perrin from aPoD-ToM, Nynaeve from tFoH-KoD).

 

and people like Cads never gets her moment

Give it time.

 

And there are plenty of threads dedicated to Egwene bashing, so you're not alone in your annoyance.

There's only 3 books to go. and I hear she's even WORSE in the Sanderson books!

Why can't Egwene be dressed down once successfully? I don't get how I'm supposed to be invested in her if she's unstoppably amazing at everything, almost always wins, and doesn't seem to flinch when she doesn't. And no one has ever been able to score any kind of win against her. Even when she's stuck as a damn novice she's still successfully dressing down Aes Sedai without any effort!

I am still utterly perplexed over how much the world of WOT seems split over whether the Forsaken are competent or not. I've seen people call them the best villains of all time and actively shunned me for thinking otherwise. Other have done the same except they think they're obviously some of the most pathetic. It bothers me so much that I can't get a straight consensus. Then I could work on reconciling the things that annoy me about them via discussing them with people.

but anyway, Robert Jordan called Sammael a mite who didn't deserve any kind of worthy defeat. Why? What made him so much worse than the other Forsaken? I thought he was one of the higher ranking Forsaken? You don't get high in the ranks without being skilled. Graendal even complimented him inside her own head on some things. and the Forsaken hate each other. And he's not even the only Forsaken who became evil due to haivng a beef with Lews. Demandred and Be'lal have that honour as well. So why is HE so bad in particular?

I think there's also the possibility that Elayne and Nynaeve expected the Seafolk to be decent human beings

They deal with Aes Sedai and they expect any woman in this series to be a decent human being?

So how many things in this series happen that WEREN'T a result of the heroes being stupid?

It's like people seem to think that if team light had put 2 seconds of thought into something Team Shadow would've never stood a chance... That's depressing... to know that Team shadow can only function when they're opposed by morons :(

It would be the Dark One that would destroy/twist/etc the Pattern; not necessarily the Shadow.  And that at his release; unless the Light side could stop him.

 

This issue is actually whether the Pattern could predict which side would win Tarmon Gaidon; since the destruction would depend on that event.  The first 13 books have not told which side would win.

 

edit::

Gathering Storm mentions this issue.

I always thought that the Dark One's forces can mess with the pattern in some fashion, since the Dark One is trapped and yet Ta'veren are created to correct stuff like the Forsaken, implying that the pattern needed something to deal with them because they were messing things up. I highly doubt the pattern's calculations would want 1 in 5 Aes Sedai to be evil so in some manner Team Shadow at large must be disrupting the pattern.

Can the pattern predict it's own destruction? How far into the future can the pattern see? It knew the tower would be attacked by Seanchan for instance, so in some capacity it can see into the future. But if it always knew that such a thing would happen I doubt it would allow the situation to get that bad. It would've found SOME way to lessen the situation and expose the black ajah earlier for instance, if it had literally all data from past present and future to work with.

And if the Pattern can see it's own destruction, for instance if the shadow twisted things so awfully that there was almost no way the pattern could contrive a means of succeeding hypothetically, would things like Min's visions go blank? Or would it proceed  under the assumption that it can win and only go blank when it's destroyed?

I heard a quote from Robert Jordan that the Pattern broadcast the battle in Falme up in the clouds on purpose so that the one true dragon would be accepted.

If the Pattern can just do that kind of thing by itself. Why does it even need Ta'veren? Why can't it just strike the Forsaken down dead? Why can't it kill the Shadow's forces. Why does it need to use anyone if it can cause such a grandiose event to happen that defies all the laws of magic set up by this series' universe?

 

 

Or, in the case of the map Perrin needed for that attack, the odds of someone having that map were incredibly unlikely but not impossible, so fortune twisted in his favor and it turned out that someone did have it after all.

See this is my issue. Did the Pattern give him that map months before Perrin met him to set up the meeting where he gave Perrin the map? Or did he get it by coincidence and the pattern guided Perrin to him?

 

See, probability alteration like this doesn't work when it comes to things that had to have been going on MONTHS or YEARS in advance. Or did the Pattern warp reality to give him the map then gave everyone memories of the Banner General receiving it?

 

Except it does work like this months or years in advance where the Pattern is concerned, even decades or centuries.  It wove Rand's birth on the slopes of Dagonmount.  The Aiel going from the Way of the Leaf to being the fiercest warriors on the continent.  King Laman cutting down Avendoraldera.  The Aiel crossing the wall, an Aes Sedai telling Rand's mother to join them because of one of her visions, Tam getting separated from his force and finding them on the mountain before Rand could die from the cold as a newborn.  Rand being raised in the remnants of Manetheren, gaining their many positive traits and growing into a *relatively* mature young man before Moirane ever found them.  If the Pattern can set up that many coincidences in just a few decades, imagine what it could do across the centuries since the Breaking.  Or just as easily in the few short years since the Seanchan have landed on this continent.

 

 

In the case of Perrin's map, I worded my last post poorly.  Here you have a Seanchan general who has been mapping local areas.  The pattern didn't alter fortune so that the guy had the map, it altered fortune for Perrin so that the guy who owned that map was part of the Seanchan group Perrin made contact with.  Essentially, the Pattern brought Perrin the one person he needed most - someone with quality information about their surroundings - at a time when he would need that person to plan the attack.  The Pattern alters chance, not reality, and it makes full use of what's available.

 

That Banner General could just as easily been leading a different war party, hunting for more marath'damane in a different location; if that had happened then the map would never have been used, Perrin's attack would have either failed or had far higher casualties, and any number of other things would have gone wrong from lack of information.  Just as easily, the officer could have died in an earlier battle; one stray arrow, or a Power-wrought explosion, and there would never have been a map created in the first place; or even just scouting a different area and mapping that instead.  A million ways that could have gone wrong, but the Pattern brought both the Banner General, and that map, to Perrin alive and intact.

 

Is it ever explained why Ta'veren need to exist for all this to happen? The Pattern was setting all of this up purely so that the Ta'veren could benefit from it. Some of it needed to happen long before the 3 even became Ta'veren in the first place. Is Ta'vereness an abstract concept that creates ripples throughout the entirety of time itself to warp things into going how the Pattern wants them to go? Why can't the Pattern do whatever it wants whenever it wants?

They keep describing it like the trio are warping the Pattern in real time, even though they benefit from stuff that had to be set up before their Ta'veren powers activated. So is Ta'vereness not a power and more like what happens if the Pattern focuses in on one person and centralizes so many events around them? Well that can't be the case since they have the power to influence people's responses and cause weird random occurances whenever they stick around in an area. So it's definitely a power of some kind. So I guess it has to be a power that transcends time in order to set this stuff up.

But then if Ta'vereness works like this then how did Ishamael manipulate Hawkwing into death and destroy his empire? The pattern should've seen that coming and stopped it.  When people kidnapped Rand in book 6 the Pattern had already placed Perrin next to him long before so that he could go off and rescue him when it happened.

My point is is there any legitimate in-universe danger of the Forsaken winning if the pattern can see everything and just put people where it needs them to be.

And don't you dare say that that happens in other books. In other books that's only noticeable if you're a genre savvy reader. It's not explicitly stated in universe that the heroes are invincible

How come the Forsaken seem to gain 100 IQ points whenever they aren't on page?