Love Perrin.

Hate Faile.

I love how nobody said Cadsuane, Luckers is gonna get frustrated.

But Bela is definitely my favorite character, probably the most active throughout the series, as well as the most determined. 

Edit: Everyone except Haga, my bad.

this thread is about characters you think are universally loved, so of course nobody will say cadsuane, we know allot of people don't like her.

 

 

I like a lot of the people. Moiraine. Thom. Lan. Master Gill. Gaul. Tam. Elyas. Hopper. Birgitte. I think these are all mutually liked. Can't forget Balwer, Sulin, Rodel, Silviana, and Gareth Bryne too. Noal, Talmanes, Rhuarc too. I think the list of liked characters is shorter than those everyone hates.

Silviana? I can't really see that. She may have been a great Mistress of Novices to the Novices, but she was central in administering a lot of Elaida's unjust punishments. Beating Alviarin every morning (indefinitely), breaking Shemerin (the demoted Aes Sedai), trying to break Egwene. While she was doing it by command of the Amyrlin, she really should have taken a stand against it or something.

she did take a stand against it, maybe it was a bit late, but she did stand up.

tam. lan, agelmar, moiraine, gaul, rhurarc, amys. i cannot be sure, but i think these are all universally liked characters not including rand. i would include min, but i think there are many people who dislike her for various reasons. there are likely more characters that are universally liked or loved (ingtar off the top of my head).

Problem with you people is that you are talking from an academic POV and I am talking from experience. Let me stretch the analogy,. Do you have any idea how many students who come to U.S.A for studying on scholarships from different countries go back to settle in U.S.A after they have served their bonded terms? I do. nearly 90% of them and this is not a joke. Out of my session of 260 students 45 of us went to study In U.S.A and Europe on different scholarships. I am the only one left in Pakistan all others are living and working in Europe and US they only comeback for visits and holidays. Thereofre. I am sorry, but you are not qualified t pass a judgement on a situation you know nothing about. As, I said before. Go and check the stats.

i can't even begin to understand what is going on in pakistan, but i do know that it makes the mess that is my country look squeaky clean. but it is not the same situation in the westlands (randland) or on their world.

Problem with you people is that you are talking from an academic POV and I am talking from experience. Let me stretch the analogy,. Do you have any idea how many students who come to U.S.A for studying on scholarships from different countries go back to settle in U.S.A after they have served their bonded terms? I do. nearly 90% of them and this is not a joke. Out of my session of 260 students 45 of us went to study In U.S.A and Europe on different scholarships. I am the only one left in Pakistan all others are living and working in Europe and US they only comeback for visits and holidays. Thereofre. I am sorry, but you are not qualified t pass a judgement on a situation you know nothing about. As, I said before. Go and check the stats.

you are attempting to equate the real world to fantasy land. in fantasy land they are very safe and highly respected in the initial homes, in the real world....

You still have done absolutely nothing to show how the dial is unfair, gives the AS an advantage and binds the other groups against their will to the WT.

well it does bind them to the wt, but it also binds the wt to the wise ones, and the wise ones to the wave mistresses, it binds them all together, none directly above the other. the only way the white tower has an advantage is if you think that the white tower is superior to the others some how, which is pretty dumb (not you sutt, just those who think it is a lopsided deal)

Egwene's job is to look out for the interest of the White Tower. If she got the better of the WO and Windfinders in the deal - good for her. If the Aiel apprentices prefer Tar Valon to the desert, more power to them. It's their life and their choice.

Exactly what I am saying, but does that make her a good, just or a like able person? I can say for myself. NO!

that would have nothing to do with her as a person, it would have to do with her as a leader. the white tower as an accepted wouldn't be a very nice place without good leadership, nor would being an wiseone apprentice or a windfinder apprentice, and based on the way they speak to eachother, none of them are supposed to be very "nice" places, they are supposed to be tough rigorous schools. if anything they will compete to make tougher students.

and sutt makes a great point. the student must return home after. they will be allowed a choice later.

Yar we have had this discussion before I am sorry for repeating myself. Let us take a parallel We have already seen that Seafolk girl running away to join WT. How many novices have run to join SF or the aiels? Tar Valon is the greatest city in the world, how many young apprentices will not carry the memory of it with them back to their ships and sandy hovels how many of them will be able to resist it? If you do not believe me look at the stats from Africa and Asia to US and Europe. We do not even have a comparable fraction of people moving from US and Europe to Africa or Asia. She is counting on exactly that effect to hold the hearts and minds of future WOs and SF channelers. That was exactly what she alluded to when she said, "I will bind you with silk" or something to that effect. Now try reading them together that she will want to come these provincial young women to world's greatest metropolis and she wants her sophisticated initiates to go live in their hovels and ships. I for one cannot read it as a benevolent move to promote harmony and peace and understanding.

 

You have already been thoroughly disabused of this notion many times over, by numerous people in the past. honestly if that is the best you can come up with in stating the deal is not fair why even join in the debate? WFs and their deep rooted love of the sea will not be tempted by a metropolis in the slightest. We have seen nothing from the Aiel to show they prefer big cities. How many of both groups decided to abandon their people and stay in Andor after being stationed there for a time?

well sutt that argument is that one may have, because they had an overbearing and over enthusiastic relative. i still wonder where that wf apprentice went. and why. but we don't know, making that argument moot. she might be dead.

Yar we have had this discussion before I am sorry for repeating myself. Let us take a parallel We have already seen that Seafolk girl running away to join WT. How many novices have run to join SF or the aiels? Tar Valon is the greatest city in the world, how many young apprentices will not carry the memory of it with them back to their ships and sandy hovels how many of them will be able to resist it? If you do not believe me look at the stats from Africa and Asia to US and Europe. We do not even have a comparable fraction of people moving from US and Europe to Africa or Asia. She is counting on exactly that effect to hold the hearts and minds of future WOs and SF channelers. That was exactly what she alluded to when she said, "I will bind you with silk" or something to that effect. Now try reading them together that she will want to come these provincial young women to world's greatest metropolis and she wants her sophisticated initiates to go live in their hovels and ships. I for one cannot read it as a benevolent move to promote harmony and peace and understanding.

she is in fact hoping they they will rub off on each other. she is as disgusted at the method of hierarchy in the aes sedai as any other. she wants the cultures to mingle. if you are saying that the as culture will overpower the home culture you are showing a lack of confidence in the home culture, it is an equal exchage, and they are all STRONG cultures of creating STRONG women. the question will be where do the males fit in?

Bringing more Aes Sedi into the White Tower by removing the age requirmenet, making the Kin almost an adjunct to the tower, and building a relationship with both the Wise Ones and the Sea Folk are all things that will help win the Last Battle and, even more, improve the balance of power with the Senshean afterwards. It seems pretty obvious that beating the Senshean is one of Egwene's main priorities here, and it should be.

 

Remember, all those women that the White Tower never bothered to test before because they're too old, still would be tested and collered by the Senshean if they get the chance.

actually those that would have to be tested to be found would not be found by the a'dam, it only finds those who spark, and sul'dam that have worked with damane for a period of time. they would likely to be found as damane though. but only those who have sparked (or learned somewhere already) would be collared.

 

Well, that's true; those who would have to be tested will instead show up as sul'dam to the Senshean, and become trainers of damme instead. I'm not sure that's better, though.

most will already be too old for that particular test. they will only find sparkers and young non sparkers. they only test for sul'dam up to a certain age.

more sul'dam than damane, because all damane are sparkers, all sul'dam are not, and there are fewer who spark than have the ability, although that is questionable given how many the aes'sedai ignore, and they are the only source of info on that. and in the tower those who sparked are a minority, likely because they sparked near an aes sedai, who in general hang out around political power, not in the backwaters.

Bringing more Aes Sedi into the White Tower by removing the age requirmenet, making the Kin almost an adjunct to the tower, and building a relationship with both the Wise Ones and the Sea Folk are all things that will help win the Last Battle and, even more, improve the balance of power with the Senshean afterwards. It seems pretty obvious that beating the Senshean is one of Egwene's main priorities here, and it should be.

 

Remember, all those women that the White Tower never bothered to test before because they're too old, still would be tested and collered by the Senshean if they get the chance.

actually those that would have to be tested to be found would not be found by the a'dam, it only finds those who spark, and sul'dam that have worked with damane for a period of time. they would likely to be found as damane though. but only those who have sparked (or learned somewhere already) would be collared.

We know when men grasp saidin, they experienced heightened senses; does the same old true for saidar users?

Yes, the same is true for women. Off the top of my head, Moiraine uses that fact in New Spring (the novel, although the Legends short story contain a reference to that fact as well). I don't know if you've read it already (although I wholeheartedly recommend that you do), so I won't specify how and when.

egwene does it in cairhaien to see the seafolk ship more clearly from the shore when she attempts to board it.

We can consider that she was not sure because ['not betraying the DO until my last hour'] (more or less like that...) trying to undo the oaths would likely be kind of betrayal...

I don't think Jordan threw the 'distinctive' detail for nothing, but it could be a clue for another thing entirely; or it could be the plain answer here, I just think the other reason is also very possible.

i think you just found a soft spot in verin's betrayal. trying to subvert the oaths should also count as a betrayal? how could she even plan for what happened?

@agitel

cool enough about the printing presses, i was deffinately off on that

300 feet is HUGE, when every other building in the area is 30 feet tall.

 

I admit, I see WT as a TOWER several times as tall as it is wide, but that's likely just a cultural assumption. If the tallest building in Indianapolis was 10x as tall as all the rest, I'd find it impressive no matter WHAT shape it was.

 

This is a really neat thread, one of the few that can go into the most intricate details and keep me interested.

---------

Someone asked about the size of the Stone of Tear, and if anyone has any thoughts on it, it would be cool to read.

 

Another thought. I just finished ACoS reread. Many of the buildings in the Rahad in Ebou Dar are said to be six or more stories tall. Does anyone know how feasable this is with that level of technology? (Though, since RJ's said late-17th century tech., I suppose it might click.)

 

I just woke up, so perhaps it's not the best time to be posting, but much of "Old Tar Valon" also constructed by the Ogier is pretty tall. Doesn't Mat speak of bridges fifty spans or paces in the air in the Dragon Reborn?

 

I should find a quote.

 

The Dragon Reborn - The First Toss

Twilight was beginning to cover Tar Valon, but there was still enough light to grace the fantastical buildings, and the oddly shaped towers connected by high bridges spanning open air over hundred-pace drops.

 

...

 

Ogier had built the great buildings and towers of Tar Valon, but other, newer parts had grown under the hands of men. Newer meaning two thousand years in some cases. Down near South-harbor, men's hands had tried to match, if not duplicate, the fanciful Ogier work. Inns where ships' crews caroused bore enough stonework for palaces. Statues in niches and cupolas on rooftops, ornately worked cornices and intricately carved friezes, all decorated chandlers' shops and merchant houses. Bridges arched across the streets here, too, but the streets were cobblestone, not great paving blocks, and many of the bridges were wood instead of stone, sometimes as low as the second stories of the buildings they joined, and never higher than four.

 

So these Ogier built towers in "Old Tar Valon" reach over 300 feet high if they have bridges connecting them together at that height. That's more than half the height of the White Tower (and it's more than half the height regardless of whether or not you agree or disagree with the foot = foot conversion, as 100 paces (the height of the bridges) is half of 100 spans (the height of the White Tower). Even so, the White Tower dominates even them.

 

As for whether 6-8 or so stories tall was feasible in 16th century tech, I can't say.

 

Speaking of time period, I've always wondered about the level of industry and the economy in this world. On my first read when I was much younger I kind of imagined it being an earlier setting, but these people are obviously printing books and other things. What's their textile industry like? What else?

only the seanchan have a printing press at this point, i remember it being mentioned somewhere, the westland books are done by scribes. but yah rj seemed to love to describe things, but something he sorely neglected was technology. i would think that as the seanchan have printing presses that they would have automatic looms (it is suprisingly similar tech) but i would bet the looms in the westlands are hand run and operated (don't think i've even heard of one waterwheel or even windmill in this series, although an auto loom can be ran by a hand crank or pedals just like a small printing press can be). as for a 6 story 16th century building, look at venice, a city with a large number of buildings that pre-date the 17th century, and allot of those buildings are at least 4 stories. many are 5 or more, and only some are over 6. it also has canals which makes it a great analogue for the rahad.

as for other buildings in tar valon reaching 300 feet, that just makes a 600 foot centerpeice all the more awe inspiring.

Yeah, I know it's huge ... it's jus that I've always imagined it as being several times as tall as it's wide - at least twice as tall as it's wide. I'm sure it could look elegant 180x120 meters, but ... not how I imagined it :P I've imagined it looking more like it'd be 250 meters tall, or something along those lines.

well the height is up to debate because of the strangeness that in the wheel of time world there are 10 inches in a foot, so the window is actually between 600 and 800 feet, and that would change allot about the needed diameter. other strangeties of the difference in measuring systems also figure into that. but if it were 600 feet tall and 400 feet wide, that would still make it a 2 wide to 3 tall equation, if it were somehow on the outside at 800 feet it could easily fit itself in 300 feet in diameter, and that would make it a 1 wide to 2.6 tall, or greater than twice as tall as wide. the tallest masonry building that we in this world have built is in the 600 foot range, (a hair under, but we changed materials before we really pushed our luck) but i could see the ogiers and aes'sedai together managing something in the 700 range if they were realy trying to push the limits of stone.

Edit: I meant the notes. You might have some specialised lit. historian buying them or a college museum perhaps and then releasing an annotated facsimile edition. It's happened with a lot of mainstream writers.

if hariet were ever to release them, i think it would only be if she thought they could be used to help teach authors. to a school, or something like that. but i don't believe that she will, although i think we will get allot when the encyclopedia comes out, maybe an overdose =P. i would love to see the notes just because i love the book series, but i think there are allot of aspiring authors who would love to see them just to get a glimpse at rj/jr's extremely well recieved method. to get another perspective on what made his books so successful.

EDIT: personally i think that they, like every book that is published, should go to the library of congress in 10 or 20 years, maybe even 30 or 40 years from now. but i doubt that will happen, people can dream.

300 feet is HUGE, when every other building in the area is 30 feet tall.

 

I admit, I see WT as a TOWER several times as tall as it is wide, but that's likely just a cultural assumption. If the tallest building in Indianapolis was 10x as tall as all the rest, I'd find it impressive no matter WHAT shape it was.

 

This is a really neat thread, one of the few that can go into the most intricate details and keep me interested.

---------

Someone asked about the size of the Stone of Tear, and if anyone has any thoughts on it, it would be cool to read.

 

Another thought. I just finished ACoS reread. Many of the buildings in the Rahad in Ebou Dar are said to be six or more stories tall. Does anyone know how feasable this is with that level of technology? (Though, since RJ's said late-17th century tech., I suppose it might click.)

for the rahad it makes sense, allot of those buildings would be relics from the trolloc wars, and technological knowledge has stagnated over time in the wheel's world. a 6 story masonry (brick or less often stone) building isn't uncommon in old european cities, but it deffinately isn't the norm. as for the stone i dont know any references on which to base it's size. i've always thought that the aes sedai should have had an engineering ajah, the brown should cover this, but they already have too much to cover, nor are they interested in action. but if the aes sedai are supposed to serve humanity, shouldn't they make physical things?

I know that it'd technically still be called a tower, but it's ugly. I've always imagined it being much taller than it's thick.

that is literature. it is described in text, you paint the image in your mind, in my mind it is actualy a very graceful peice of architecture that appears impossible because of a mix of ogier work and the one power. it looks massive yet delicate. we keep thinking of this in terms of real world architecture, and forget that it was built by extremely skilled stonemasons working with people who can do things that can only be described as magic. what we work toward is only finding out how much floor space is needed, and basing the size on the known height, a 600 foot building that is 400 feet in diameter could easily be beautiful, and you can adjust those values wherever you want, with the people who worked on it, it can be breathtaking. i think you just think of it as clunky because you aren't imagining a world without our towers like the empire state building, or the chrystler building. steel frame buildings in general. 600 feet is HUGE if you are not using steel i beams.

it doesnt say to the best of my knowledge anywhere the diameter of the tower. and to say the least a 600-800 foot tall round building would be called a tower unless it was something like half a mile in diameter. even at a quarter mile in diameter it could be called a tower, and that would make it wider than it is tall. just trying to say that it's width could be massive and still be called a tower, especialy among people who rarely see a building over 3 stories. it would be a massive monolith. and i think 800 feet was a pretty popular idea on this thread (months ago) and the thread only settled on between 600 and 800 feet for it. but the diameter to the best of my knowledge is never mentioned, and it would be an eighth of a mile wide, with clearly as many as 44 stories (but 22 was in the upper half, not at the half way point, so dont know how many actual stories), and you only got 7 or 14 stories for ajah quarters (the section may be pie shaped, myself i think it was 2 floors of a round tower, otherwise even 22 stories doesn't make much sense even if you add classrooms into it, storage isnt likely to take up much of the above ground tower although there is likely allot of multi-story space in the tower) but anyway if it is 800 feet tall and 400 feet wide i could easily see space for 3000 3 room apartments with lots of room to spare. none of the aes'sedai rooms make mention of a kitchen, or even a bathroom (pretty common in sci-fi to ignore the bathroom, but i am sure it would be there, i dont include it as one of the 3 rooms, but it would be a part of the sitting room i think unless they just use chamber pots and the maid's deal with the mess)

(speaking of a mess, this is a mess. i thought about not posting it, but it helped me organize my thoughts and i figure why not, i can just be told "your wrong". so have fun)

i think calling him "the dragon" is more of a thing for the particular cycle in the books. i doubt that it would allways be "the dragon", simply the soul that we know as "the dragon". not to mention that particular soul isn't important in every age. the aol and the third age are just a small part of the cycle of ages. the age lace as it were. so no, the name doesn't have much to do with the soul, rand is the dragon reborn because he can be identified as being lews therin reborn. they know that lews therin exists because he was one of the most important individuals, if not the most important individuals, of the previous age.

heh, if suian stopped acting like a lovestruck girl at her 15th bel'tine she could likely explain the situation to egwene. egwene thinks she knows the game because of her success with the aes'sedai, suian is a true master only surpassed by morgause, moiraine, and thom. maybe dylin(?) as well, elayne wouldn't have survived without her. even elayne is still pretty inexperienced in the game, though damn good. rand dropped a bomb, but a bomb that can be understood when you read between the lines. egwene clearly understands part of it, but she is missing the biggest part, it is a meeting he didn't need to have to do what he intended, he needs armies, and she knows that, he needs a plan, and she knows that, something she doesn't seem to know is that he needs support. not her support in specific, but the support of the people who will be fighting for him, because that support will strengthen those who fight for him, his people need a cause. that is what the meeting is about, and she is skipping over it because it is too glaringly obvious. but where does an aes'sedai hide something? right in front of your face.

He got the third name before, since Lanfear was jealous of it before he even got with his wife. Hmm, didn't know it meant dragon. So was it known he was the Dragon before the battle with the Shadow then? Did they know what the Dragon was? (Since the battle between the Dragon the the DO was eternal, blah blah blah)

i would expect they would have known that the name meant the dragon

tel as in tel aran rhiod :: the unseen world

aman as in siswai'aman :: spears of the dragon, literaly dragon's spears (the possesive)

siswai :: spear

by elimination

tel aman :: the dragon

telamon is likely a corruption.

verin doesnt just say "unseen world" when she introduces that translation, she says "the unseen world" just as she says "the world of dreams" for the other possible translation. it is made very clear that the old tongue from the age of legends is extremely corrupted by the time moi enters emonds field many times through the series. tel'aman very likely means literaly the dragon, and as with siswai'aman it likely has stronger connotations, like perhaps "the only dragon" or something with that type of meaning at least. it is also made clear in the series that direct translations from the old toung generaly dont work. they seem nonsensical in a world that no longer uses the language in it's culture. it would be interesting to see what "the children of the dragon" looks like in the old toung.

Has the "coveted third name" thing ever been explained?

 

You mean from the Age of Legends?

If so, the third name was earned through accomplishments.

 

Yes from the age of Legends. Nothing further explaining exactly what it was then? Just like a middle name?

earning a third name in the age of legends reflected great deeds done for others. i dont think there is all that much about it but it seems to me that the names were bestowed not chosen by the one who earned them. for lews therin the name he earned was telamon which literaly means "the dragon". i like to think he earned it in battle against the shadow, but it might have been before the war as far as i know. but lews therin's title as far as i can tell was lord of the morning, although he once, apparently not at the time of the strike at sg, wore the ring of tamyrlin, and commanded the nine rods of dominion, and lots of people on this site think of the rods of dominion as governors in the regions of the world, and as such it would mean that at one point lews was leader of the world. it would be hard to say king because there is so little information.

EDIT: oh and of course lews therin also earned a fourth name: kinslayer

So in Lord of Chaos, Chapter 54: The sending, Nandera and Sulin both seem to be responsible for the Maidens that are heading to rescue Rand. Eventually they fight and Sulin wins the fight. But after this, Nandera appears to be the leader of the Maidens. Can anyone explain this reasoning? Why isn't Sulin in charge? Clearly it's something I'm missing something about Aiel culture.

yoni might have hit it pretty close, but at the same time it was a fight, and it wasn't presented as a punishment. maybe sulin in her grey just got her ass beat. but then again i remember it as being amys and another wiseone (bair i think). and i dont remember a fight with sulin against a maiden.

edit: i know the wiseone fight happened in the same context, i dont remember a maiden fight

EDIT2: oh crap now i remember, there was a fight with the maidens, apparently sulin lost somehow, and amys and (bair?) sat down and discussed things untill when they came out amys was clearly a bit above but the other was a very close second (bair?). (didnt edit any above post in either edit)

edit3: still no edits above. but anyway nandera is leading because sulin hasnt met her toh for using maiden hand talk tward a maiden gai'shan when loial's mom and mentor met rand in andor. she broke her punishment when rand was captured.

edit4: remember among the aiel you have toh to those who you admit to have toh to, in this case the maidens. you have toh until those you have toh to tell you that your toh is met, sulin moves back to maiden without being told that her toh is met. you can have toh without realizing it, a very embarasing situation, but i dont think this applies to sulin.