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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Sloth

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Posts posted by Sloth

  1. So much SoT hate ;D

     

    I personally like the series (enough to re-read from time to time).

     

    I guess I'm just one of those people who can look past the astrocious (at times) writing and offputting, awkward rape scenes that border on sadomasochism. I also don't have a problem with how "preachy" the books are accused of being. TG himself referring to his series as more philosophical than fantastical in nature aside, his 5 paragraph lectures of the evils of socialism, of the same recycled material, is nothing compared to the 5 page descriptions detailing the clothing, gestures, postures, body language, hair, material possessions, etc. of every person in a given room. I tend to agree with a lot of what Wool-headed lummox had to say about the series, though i wouldn't go so far as to use it to discourage other readers from reading the series which is why I don't understand why 95% of the WoT fan population seeth at the mention of SoT and have a knee jerk reaction to point out all of it's obvious flaws, completely oblivious to the fact that their beloved WoT has it's share of flaws. You could argue that TG stop with all the damn preaching. I could argue that RJ stop all the damn lip licking. I mean really.. WoT wisdoms/healers seems to know enough about herbs to concoct sedatives and painkillers, but seemingly no cure for chapped lips?.. jeez.

     

    So, with that said, I would recommend SoT. Yes, there will be books in the series that you remain indifferent with.. some that may infuriate you (Naked Empire/Pillars of Creation were pretty iffy for me).. but what series doesn't have those? Don't let it stop you from finishing an amazing epic. I've only read tWoT series once, but I remember skimming through either WH or CoT. I just could not make it through the entirety of one or both of them. Also, TG has recently released the first of a three part book series that continues the SoT series. Titled "The Omen Machine", I wouldn't bother with it. It's trash.. a long winded short story written to pay off the mortgage. To say that I was disappointed is an understatement.

  2. I either don't agree, don't remember, or didn't mind the bullying. Feel free to pull a few passages from the bookes to prove your point.

     

    The bolded bit is obviously the case as you can't not agree with what is written straight out. She hits, kicks and uses threats to enforce her will all throughout the first part of the story. She clearly felt the need to resort to this as a young Wisdom. It has been by far one of the most talked about aspects of her personality in the fandom. She does change somewhat in the later part of the books and even admits in TGS that her old ways aren't going to work on Rand anymore.

     

    TGS Ch. 32

    How did one handle a creature like the Dragon Reborn? Nynaeve knew that the old Rand was there, within him somewhere. He had simply been beaten and kicked so many times that he'd gone into hiding, letting this harsher version rule. As much as it galled her to admit it, bullying him was just not going to work. But how was she to get him to do what he should, since he was too bullheaded to respond to ordinary prodding?

     

    In my defense, I've only read the series once and it's hard to keep track of every miniscule detail aside from the major plot.

     

    I guess I just didn't mind the bullying. I didn't really view it as bullying which is why I still don't see Nynaeve as the bullying type.

  3. I don't see Nynaeve as the bullying type.

     

    Sorry but is that a joke?

     

    No.

     

    Ok well then you must mean that she isn't that type "now" as of ToM because that is just about all she did for the first three quarters of the story.

     

    I don't agree.. just as most fans wouldn't agree with my sentiments that Perrin and Mat are the most abysmally boring and unlikeable characters in the series.

     

    I agree wholeheartedly about Perrin and I think most fans would as well. The problem with your viewpoint on Nyanaeve is the facts are in the story. You can pull passage after passage of her bullying and browbeating people. It isn't even up for debate.

     

    I either don't agree, don't remember, or didn't mind the bullying. Feel free to pull a few passages from the bookes to prove your point.

  4. I don't see Nynaeve as the bullying type.

     

    Sorry but is that a joke?

     

    No.

     

    Ok well then you must mean that she isn't that type "now" as of ToM because that is just about all she did for the first three quarters of the story.

     

    I don't agree.. just as most fans wouldn't agree with my sentiments that Perrin and Mat are the most abysmally boring and unlikeable characters in the series.

  5. Nynaeve is my favorite character fighting for the light.. so it really annoyed me when Egwene was acting all self righteous and insulted Nynaeve for being "so reckless" in T'A'R when she herself had basically almost got sucked into Gawyn's dream among several other near death experiences that was a direct result of her hypocrisy and arrogance. Oh.. and every other instance of her belittling Nynaeve after realizing that she could.

     

    Might have asked you this before but Nynaeve's bullying never bothered you at all? Not to mention much of the humor around her character is based on her acting in a hypocritical fashion. Does it not just hit as hard because it is played to comedic effect?

     

    I don't see Nynaeve as the bullying type. She has a strong personality and the ability to change, which is why most fans give her the benefit of the doubt. Still, I fell in love with her character since she was first introduced and I couldn't have been happier when it was revealed that she was one of the strongest channeler born in this age. I've never had a problem with her.

     

    Egwene, on the other hand, is just arrogant. One example is the fact that she would take any opportunity she could to put Nynaeve down after that instance I had mentioned earlier. And I bring this up because you seem to be placing Nynaeve on the same level as Egwene.

  6. Nynaeve is my favorite character fighting for the light.. so it really annoyed me when Egwene was acting all self righteous and insulted Nynaeve for being "so reckless" in T'A'R when she herself had basically almost got sucked into Gawyn's dream among several other near death experiences that was a direct result of her hypocrisy and arrogance. Oh.. and every other instance of her belittling Nynaeve after realizing that she could.

     

    I wouldn't mind her ego if she were punished more severely (or at all) for her blatant contradictions and flat out arrogance.

     

    Still, she's just a minor annoyance and I loved the role she played throughout tGS and the book that preceded that. She's not even one of my least favorite characters.

  7. Perrin. Mat. Gawyn. Hate them.

     

    Why Mat and Perrin?

     

    Why not Mat and Perrin?

     

    Perrin because he's boring to read.. I also blame him for introducing Faile, forcing me to read her chapters too (as well as her unnecessarily long winded rescue.)

     

    Mat because I find him terribly unfunny. Also boring to read. Just die already.

  8. The Creator is the reason why time exists. You can't hold the Creator subject to an entity/principle that he/she transcends. It is for this reason that time is considered an infinite dimension (since it defines itself, there are no beginnings or endings).

  9. Pretty much every scene featuring the points of views of Graendal, Semirhage, Lanfear, Mesaana, and Moghedien

     

    Verin revealing that she's BA to Egwene

     

    The climax of Egwene vs. Elaida at the WT in which Egwene in which Elaida loses her temper and uses the OP

     

    The cleansing of Saidin

     

    Nynaeve <3

     

    Seanchan attack of the WT

     

    Egwene + WT vs. Mesaana + BA

  10. I enjoy the Sword of Truth series enough to re-read them from time to time. While I do agree that it has gone downhill some since the third book, I still enjoyed the 8 books that followed. (Especially Faith of the Fallen and the Chainfire trilogy.)

     

    Obviously, I also enjoy the Wheel of Time series (or I wouldn't be here). As someone who has read both series up until the most current books, here is my personal analysis:

     

    Better writer?

    RJ, definitely.

     

    Better plot?

    WoT, by a slight margin. (A little too tricky and long winded for it's own good.)

     

    Characterization?

    WoT, again, by a slight margin. I could do without the fifty or sixty characters that are introduced, usually never seen again, yet are referenced from time to time leaving me asking "who the hell was that?" Still, that's better than not bothering to develop any characters outside of Richard Rahl's immediate circle of friends, I suppose.

     

    Magic system?

    WoT.

     

    Which series do I personally prefer more?

    WoT.

     

    Other thoughts..

    The majority of TG's books are 20% repetition/recap. The Omen Machine, TG's latest book, is terrible. It's a poorly written, poorly developed, long winded short story with no creative input whatsoever.

  11. No, Sloth, the difference is that I have made claims based on the evidence, you have made stuff up. A character can indeed speak in arrogance or ignorance, but there is a massive difference between a quote made in arrogance or ignorance and a complete absence of evidence, or at best some highly dubious interpretations of the evidence. I have quotes to support me, or at the very least a claim that you have no quotes to support you (a claim which is hard for me to find a Jordan or Sanderson quote to back up, for reasons which should be self evident). You have nothing to support you. Where are your quotes? I've asked for evidence, I've seen none.

     

    I'm talking about the misguided claims that Moghedien could stand equal to Semirhage or Mesaana in the OP since apparently there is no evidence to suggest it when in fact there IS evidence-- circumstantial evidence and implications-- to suggest that she is the weakest.

     

    Who are you to say what suffices as evidence and what does not? Statements made out of arrogance can be just as misleading as implications made from subtle nuances in the books if not more. After all, it's easier and takes less effort to make a red herring out of a simple statement born from misconception and rumor than it would be from slight innuendos constantly built up from a reoccurring theme.

     

    A clear statement from BS that Moghedien is the weakest would be nice. Alas, we don't yet have one, nor did RJ ever give us one. We have no quotes from the books stating outright that she is the weakest. We have guesswork, not anything with a basis in the facts. On the other hand, we do have direct quotes for Rand being the strongest, Ishy matching him, Lanfear and Aginor being the next strongest. Now, the people making those statements might be misinformed, but we still have the statements. What do we have for Mggy? She acts like a coward, therefore she must be weak. No, she acts like a coward because she's a coward. She's treated with contempt because she's a coward. There is never the slightest hint that they think less of her because she's the weakest, nor Asmo. It is their weak personalities that are despised. You have nothing, yet like so many before you you refuse to admit that. By the way, misusing the word literally is not a tactic that usually persuades me to agree with people. I am not literally demanding something as undeniably true as a BS quote (a strange thing for me to demand, when I don't consider BS statements to be undeniably true - he can be wrong, too unsure to be reliable, etc.). I am literally asking for a shred of evidence. Not pure unadulterated guesswork. A quote. Some logic, a few facts. Something besides "I think it's true, therefore it's true", which is about all you've managed so far. I don't think it's too much to ask.

     

    You're setting me up to fail knowing there is no direct quote from any of the cast of characters that say "Moghedien is the weakest forsaken" and therefore tainting my well of evidence, overshadowing the fact that a direct quote isn't any more evidence than implications in the book.

     

    That Ishy matches Rand, Rand is the strongest and Lanfear and Aginor being the next strongest are all speculation. Until all of them battle to the death, it is still speculation... which is why you're "literally demanding a WoG quote" to be convinced.

  12. I may be being difficult, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. We have precious little evidence on this matter. We have direct quotes stating that Ishamael was as strong as LTT, that Aginor and Lanfear vied for the place of second strongest Chosen, but we have no such similar quote for most of the others. Who is the weakest? We don't know. There is not enough evidence to say with any degree of reliability. It certainly could be Moghedien, but there is nothing like the evidence we would need to state that it definitley is her, or even is most likely her. She is merely a possibility. By my logic, there is evidence to say Lanfear is next to Ishy in strength - there are quotes saying as much. There are no such quotes to say, or even imply, that Moggy is the weakest. None at all.

     

    Doesn't matter if they are direct quotes. They could be made out of arrogance or ignorance so we don't know them to be fact. You see, there's a difference between our assumptions and your conjectures. Our assumptions are backed by very circumstantial evidence and numerous implications throughout the books whereas you pull suppositions out of thin air and state them to be just as possible just because there is no evidence to support or deny these claims.

     

    Therefore, if we can't make the claim that Moghedien is the weakest female forsaken/weakest forsaken, you can't make the claim that Rand is the most powerful channeler, stands equal to Ishy, that Lanfear is the second strongest channeler/strongest female channeler, that Aginor almost matches Ishy in raw OP strength, etc. In all of these cases, I could say that there isn't reasonable enough evidence and explain why whatever evidence you do have would not suffice since you're literally demanding something as undeniably true as BS stating "Moghedien is INDEED the weakest forsaken" to be convinced.

  13. The quote I give you says that with the angreal, she would be as strong as Lelaine and Romanda, who are below Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha, and even Cadsuane. Therefore, Moiraine would still be weaker than Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha with her angreal.

     

    The quote you gave me says that, but the 13th Depository Power-Level Chart doesn't. In fact, it says that was -Old- Moiraine's power level before dropping to "Level 2". With the angreal, her Level should be somewhere above Level 12. We don't know how much.

     

    http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

     

    This is why I am stating that somewhere along the line, 13th Depository failed and I suppose it comes from trying to intuit too much from too little information. Or maybe it was two different writers? I'm not familiar with their site and don't know what the discrepancy results from.

     

    Wait a minute.. I'm almost certain that Romanda and Lelaine are both stronger than Elaida, former Siuan, and former Moiraine.. so why are they lumped together? Anyways, going by my original idea, that Romanda and Lelaine, I'm assuming Moiraine would be, while stronger than them, not exponentially stronger. Hmm.. then again, the only other people above she can compare herself to, who are above Romanda and Lelaine would be Lanfear, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, and Aviendha. Since it isn't said that she's at or above their strength, I'm assuming she's still below.

  14. I'm not familiar with Moiraine's stats other than what 13th is telling me, so I can't comment on whether she was a weak channeler beforehand, but in point of fact, she indicates that even with her diminished state, her angreal makes her very strong, even moreso than she was before she was diminished.

     

    She wasn't a weak channeler beforehand. She was considered to be one of the strongest Aes Sedai during the start of the series. She's about 3 levels below Elayne, Egwene, and Aviendha in the OP.

     

    As far as that quote you've provided goes, I'm not sure how they determine she's "not even as strong as Elayne/Egwene/Avi" when they have all of two sentences to go on. She used to be "Level 12", but we're given no indication of just how much stronger than that she is now, just that she's "even stronger than she was before". There's only two power levels of difference between Old Moiraine and the three, by 13th's estimation.

     

    The quote I give you says that with the angreal, she would be as strong as Lelaine and Romanda, who are below Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha, and even Cadsuane. Therefore, Moiraine would still be weaker than Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha with her angreal.

  15. Do you have evidence to support any of that?

     

     

    Read the books, it's all there with the exception of Mesaana and Semirhage. BS told us he is pretty sure Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana and that Semirhage is stronger than Nynaeve.

     

    Asmo was considered the weakest of the male Forsaken and he is even with a pre-maxed out Rand.

    A maxed out Nynaeve is still a level of two below a pre-maxed out Rand.

    Moggy was even with a pre-maxed out Nynaeve, she is below Nynaeve now that she has reached her full potential.

     

    Tell ya what, YOU provide the evidence against anything I said.

     

    Uh... I think I know what quote you are referring to in regards to Nynaeve and Semirhage, and I'm almost certain he was referring to the fact that Nynaeve is stronger than Semirhage.

     

    And also, where are you getting the idea that Nynaeve has reached her full potential? Women are said to reach theirs smoothly whereas men skyrocket due to forcing and the nature of saidin, I suppose. Even in the current incarnation, whenever people refer to a channeler they see to be stronger than Nynaeve, they would say something along the lines of "her potential even surpasses that of Nynaeve's!" indicating that she has yet to reach hers.

     

    On the upside, we now know that an angreal-enhanced Moiraine is the same power level as Cyndane. *nudges thread back on topic*

     

    Uh... the only thing that would make sense regarding angreal/sa'angreal is that they act as a multiplier rather than a "well" with a fixed amount of saidar/in that it adds. Even though we know that Moiraine's angreal is almost strong enough to be considered a sa'angreal, her power is so diminished that even amplified, she wouldn't be incredibly strong.

     

    One thing to consider is that Elayne with the "not so strong" angreal she found in Ebou Dar can handle twice as much of the OP as Nynaeve.

     

    Also, quoted from 13th Depository: "It is a very strong angreal, almost a sa’angreal according to the Eelfinn (Towers of Midnight, The Light of the World). Using it, a woman too weak to be Accepted would be very strong, stronger than Romanda or Lelaine (Towers of Midnight, A Rabbit for Supper).".. so it looks like the angreal doesn't even make her as strong as Elayne, Egwene, or Aviendha. She'd be more powerful than her former-self unaided.

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