I think its too early to know whether or not halima put compulsion on egwene, it could be something more against rand than anything an with the very limited interaction between the two of them it could be possible yet

Her only real accomplishment that is known as yet was to free Moghedien. Something no female Forsaken could have done and no male Forsaken could have gotten close enough to her to accomplish.

He/she also stood-in for Graendal dying gloriously in her stead leaving Rand convinced that Graendal is dead.

Therefore, Graendal is gonna hafta do something pretty substantial to justify both her presence and Halima's.

Hi Everybody. I've been a fan of The Wheel of Time since it started...and I've lurked at Dragonmount off and on over the years. Other than in the 4th Age threads...this is my first post here in these forums.

 

I've been listening to Towers of Midnight on Audible.com and this has been bugging me since I heard it.

 

When Perrin is at his trial...he reveals that not only has the Horn Of Valere been found, but it has been sounded. No one reacts to this...not even a gasp from the on-lookers.

 

When did it become common knowledge about the HoV? Shouldn't someone have reacted? An eyebrow raised? A start from his chair? A gasp from the crowd?

 

Did I miss something here?

I hadn't even considered that. It may be one of those things that we readers ( and Sanderson was a reader before he became the author ) have known about for so long that it seemed natural that all the characters know it, too, even though they shouldn't.

However, a lot of amazing things got said at that trial. Perrin had already admitted that he can talk to wolves. On the Whitecloak side, that just gave confirmation of his Darkfriend/Shadowspawn status. Byar was the only one who saw any of the Falme battle, and, to him, they weren't The Heroes of the Horn, but "ghostly apparitions." Rather than fighting alongside Bornhald's Whitecloaks they were supposedly fighting against them. So, on that side of the pavilion, they believed Perrin was lying about it all. They simply discounted the Horn really having been blown.

I'm not sure why there wasn't a reaction from Perrin's side. But there certainly wasn't.

Peter is having login issues, and wanted someone to post this here:

 

Rifle and riffle are two different verbs. Rifle means to search thoroughly, ransack. Riffle means to leaf through hastily or cursorily. I do believe riffle is onomatopoeia. It dates from 1754. Rifle's ransack definition is its oldest, from the 14th century. Oxford Online more or less gives rifle as one definition of riffle, which annoys me. Merriam-Webster keeps them separate.

Riffle is a rather calm and orderly activity. Something idly engaged in. To riffle through the pages of a book.

Rifle used as something other than a firearm is a more frantic and much more disorderly activity. To rifle a safe ( dig through and possibly scatter the contents of ). If one rifled a book, it would likely indicate that pages were torn free of the binding and scattered.

Riffle is idle, rifle is energetic, maybe even frantic.

Okay, how about these ones (I'm mostly pasting from what I wrote in the 'ask a thread' topic)?

a) Both Morgase and Wil heard Perrin when Masuri's reportedly erected a ward around the tent (Perrin stepped out, Morgase inside, Wil faraway).

 

b) Elayne HERSELF referred to the civil war as a succession war, when she was adamant it wasn't a succession unless one House succeeded another in KoD. BTW Thom did that as well, and I believe him equally unlikely to make that mistake. If I'm not mistaken, the same happened in TGS somewhere.

 

c) Wasn't there something off in Elayne's timeline? She was aligned with Mat at the beginning, yet when Gawyn arrived at Caemlyn she was aligned with Egwene, plus there was her meeting with Egwene in the Dream World which I don't know how to fit in. I do remember that I felt something was seriously wrong the first time we got to see White Tower dwelers from her PoV (when that was, I'm not sure).

Different characters with so many different groups plus moves here and moves there, the timeline is very snarled throughout the whole book. I'm entirely unsure who did what when in relation to anybody else.

page 625 3rd paragraph from the bottom:

"... They galloped their horses to the of camp, ..." probably should be "... the edge of camp, ..."

page 386 just after the break:

... My own sister, Sigril leads the Lastriders, who will watch from the ridge to the southeast and send word if we should we fall. ...

Did Rand channel in Whitebridge when the fade came at Thom them, and is that the cause of the blue flashes?

 

I am currently readin EotW, and being very thorough about it due to spotting when Rand learns about the Black Ajah (will return to that another time). I have just finished the Whitebridge episode, and thought of the mystery of the blue flashes.

 

The following leaped out at me combined with knowing that next time we see Rand (it goes to Perrin for the next chapter) he is having a fever and other bad symptoms.;

The black cowl froze Rand where he stood. He tried to summon up the void, but it was like fumbling after smoke. The Fade's hidden gaze knifed to his bones and turned his marrow to icicles. [...]Rand tore his eyes away - he almost groaned; it felt like tearing a leech off of his face - but even staring at the stones he could still see the Myrddraal coming, [...]

Thom then pushes Rand who is still fixated on the Myrddraal, Thom crashes into the fade "before theblack blade was half drawn, and both went down in a thrashing heap"

Thom yells for them to run and then "the air in the square flashed an eye-searing blue".

From the description the Myrddraal has not gotten its sword out, Rand is fixated on the tableu, and the preceeding pages description of the feeling in his bones parallels the descriptions of Saidin several other places. Rand was reaching for the void and in a state of fear for his life (like the previous - and later - times he channels.

Jordan did say that the flashes were because "Thom's best knives are very special indeed." But, he also said that Thom's best knives were not Power Wrought Blades. So how "Thom's best knives" caused the blue flashes has never really been explained.

ETA: Oh, yeah, BTW...if WOT so regularly fails at giving you what you think fantasy should be, why do you keep reading it? I'm serious: you obviously get something out of it, but it sure doesn't sound that way.

Why do I keep reading the series? The Eye of the World was a pretty dang good book. It promised us a fresh look at Ragnarok. That's always a story that's worth reading, so I promised myself I'd see it through.

Why has doing that become very hard work? Partly because Jordan has overplayed the "reluctant hero" bit, maybe the biggest fantasy cliche of all. And partly due to how he has portrayed all of the side characters. We are left, after twelve books, with very few characters to root for. At this point, for me, Furyk Karede is just about the only one who hasn't been a disappointment. The other characters read like a Who's Who of negative traits. Jordan has belabored everyone's shortcomings to the point that all of the characters have become tiresome. Even the heroes. Having faults, being human is fine. Being unremittingly selfish and stupid and childish isn't ( unless you're a Bad Guy, they're supposed to be hatefully selfish ).

Maybe somebody coming into the series today wouldn't have the same problem with it that I do. I've been reading it since 1991. When you wait, sometimes years for the next installment, and it's just more of the same - especially that multi-book Perrin/Faile disaster - it leaves a really bad taste.

I'm not the only one for whom that's true. Just the one posting about it in this thread.

To bring this back to Cadsuane - from where I sit, she should be played by Margaret Hamilton. Just a total mis-characterization of what she was billed to be.

Then it's not a problem with the characters but rather an issue with you and your tastes. Just because you believe Fantasy should be written in a particular style doesn't mean it should be or that things are WRONG when they go outside of the stock standard fantasy setting. I'm glad things go outside of what is considered the norm otherwise all we would have is Dragons, Elves and Dwarves Wizards for magic and only a handful of characters we would ever get to see.

It's not style that's the problem, it's substance.

But, I probably shouldn't be trying to discuss this with somebody who comes to a fantasy series looking for realism.

 

That's the whole point he made whiny characters, because IRL PEOPLE ARE WHINY, Aes Sedai are brought up to believe they are the bees knees, the main crew from Emonds Field are still quite young so i don't blame them being whiny and slightly incompetent, i mean lets take your average school leaver and plonk the fate of the world in their hands, lets see how they accept it. RJ made characters that are realistic, more so then most book series out there. it's because they act this way that i like them, and since when does a Hero HAVE TO roll up his sleeves and accept whats going on without issues? I cant think of too many HEROES that didn't have a whine about why they have to do what they do. IMHO it's Heroic BECAUSE they moan and groan about not really wanting to act that way, a hero is one because despite all the issues they have about what they have to do they do it anyways.

 

And Rand does strut around acting high and mighty, how many times do they aiel mention it? I mean come on, he tells EVERYONE that because he's the Dragon he can do whatever he wants. I never said that Cadsuane didn't act high and mighty, she does though she's kinda expected to she has been around for 300+ years and is Aes Sedai.

To repeat it one more time - if I wanted reality I wouldn't be reading fantasy - I'd turn on TV or read a newspaper.

Yes, real people are whiny. I don't come to fantasy to read about real people, I come to read about people that are a little better than those I find in the news everyday. That's why it's called FANTASY, because it is NOT REAL.

I never said they shouldn't have issues with what's on their plates. What I'm trying to convey is that they shouldn't have nothing but issues with what's on their plates. Go ahead, have a fit. Get drunk. Curse. Have a good cry. Whatever it takes. Then, leave the pity party, sober up, and get on with it and DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

But, most of all, STOP THE WHINING. It was boring after four books. After twelve books, it's enough to make me root for the Dark.

Bob - I understand the anti-Faile, but in general, she's not really that much of a whingebag, is she? Like really, in proximity to her hubby, she's in the ha'penny stakes. To paraphrase Rand in Far Madding, [Masema] just needed killing, is all... She saw the need, saw Perrin wasn't really gonna do it, so she got it done fairly efficiently. Go on, points for that?

I don't fault Faile for her pragmatism, I fault her for her gaminess, her deceit, her attempts to seduce Perrin away from supporting Rand. I fault her for her failure to talk to her husband, her insistence that he read her mind and her mood and respond the way she wants him to this time which won't necessarily be the same as how she wanted him to respond last time.

She goes behind his back as a matter of course not a matter of necessity. Killing Masema wasn't hers to do. It especially wasn't her place to do it covertly. She epitomizes what is wrong with the Westlands. She makes no attempt to work with her husband, only to work around him. She consistently is a hurdle Perrin has to overcome, not a partner. Perrin and Faile are less than the sum of their parts, rather than greater.

But, this is fantasy. The Good Guys are supposed to be larger-than-life heroes, and the Bad Gus are supposed to be even larger-than-life villains.

 

I totally disagree, i think making the characters less EPIC and more rounded makes us relate to them so much more. i mean come on i related alot more to rand knowing he feels anguish over the things he cant control, i cant say i would relate as much if all he ever did was strut around blowing away shadowspawn and acting all high and mighty.

 

As for Cadsuane, it's her arrogance that allows us to connect to her, we as people these days are just as arrogant. I can't say i like the character but i DO like the way she is written.

Who said anything about "strut around blowing away shadowspawn and acting all high and mighty"? Other than the "blow away shadowspawn" part, that describes Cadsuane. She's the one who struts around acting all high and mighty. There's nothing at all heroic in that. A hero is somebody who tightens his belt, rolls up his sleeves and gets on with the heavy lifting. Without whimpering or whining about the unfairness of it all. ( In fairness, Cadsuane does do a bunch of that. She just exerts her efforts in unproductive ways. )

To me, the function of literature, and fantasy in particular, is to encourage us to grow and to be better than we are, not to excuse us for being the least we can be. Jordan gave us lowest common denominator characters. Whiners, backstabbers, crybabies, poseurs, morons, and idiots. And, those are the "Good Guys." The Bad Guys are just lame.

Mat and Perrin are near tied at the top of the whiner list. Rand doesn't whine much but he has been a crybaby. Yup, he's supposed to die. Guess what? That's true for everybody. Nobility of all nations heads the backstabber brigade. The Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders ( actually all Sea Folk ) are probably the worst poseurs. And, everybody, top to bottom, wall to wall rides the short bus.

A pox on all of them, but Cadsuane and Faile most of all.

Except for Furyk Karede. He doesn't whine. He doesn't pretend. He puts his head down, uses his brain for something other than to keep his ears from rubbing together, and gets on with the job at-hand. He aint perfect but he's pretty damn good.

I admire Robert Jordan for being willing to try to flesh out the scraps of Eddas that have come down to us and write a comprehensive Ragnarok. I admire him additionally for trying to give us more rounded, three-dimensional characters.

But, this is fantasy. The Good Guys are supposed to be larger-than-life heroes, and the Bad Gus are supposed to be even larger-than-life villains. More rounded characters are better than one-dimensional cardboard cutouts, but rather than give us an array of well-rounded people, he gave us nothing but greedy, unthinking children. Not a real hero or villain in the lot. Just a bunch of all-to-real, selfish, stupid babies doing boringly pedestrian selfish and stupid things. Whiney, too.

Cadsuane was his best opportunity to give us a character with some real maturity and wisdom. One character in this whole overcrowded kindergarten who thought and behaved as an adult.

He blew it. She's the most gamey, deceitful, manipulative ... ummm ... person in the series. She's even more deceitful and manipulative than Faile, and that really takes some doing.

DIE Cadsuane, DIE! And, take Faile with you.

But, there quite simply is far too much stupidity in this series as is.

 

*Looks at real world*

 

*Looks at books*

 

Nah, that's about the right amount of stupid.

True, the real world gets pretty stupid.

This is fantasy, though. If I wanted reality I'd read a newspaper. For a fantasy, there's just far too much stupidity going on.

Thanks for those links, didymos.

To pile on-

True Power is just a different form of power. It is NOT the WOT equivalent of a BFG.

The Choedan Kal were the WOT BFG's and they're both gone now.

It was these kinds of actions that attracted Rand's attention and made him ask Cadsuane to be his advisor, before Min's viewing. So, how is complete and utter success stupid?

You have a very loose definition for "complete and utter success."

Her actions have been just short of complete and utter failure. All her game playing has done is soak up bandwidth that Rand needed to be using figuring out how to get the people of the world to work together to defeat the DO. The only time he makes any progress on fulfilling his destiny is when he is away from her, Cleansing excepted.

All you Cadsuane apologists are forgetting one thing - Rand is the greatest ta'veren ever. The Wheel will give him what he needs to survive to make it to his pre-ordained destiny. Since he would have required an adequate guard force for the Cleanising the Wheel gave him one. Cadsuane didn't "choose" to be there, the Wheel chose her for that task.

Ultimately, of course, her biggest fault is that Jordan wrote her very, very badly. As with the Forsaken, he told us she was one thing ( a tough maiden aunt who challenges you to be better than you thought you could and makes doing so the best scary-wonderul fun you've ever had ) and showed us someone entirely different ( a harridan with no redeeming qualities ).

Actually...I believe I did mention that. And pointed to it as a reason why Cadsuane should be even more careful around Rand than Moiraine was.

 

She chose a path that I think is entirely destructive and any success on her part is due to Min's prophecy staying Rand's hand rather than her own brilliance.

Precisely. Without that Viewing, Cadsuaqne is dead long since.

As for examples of her stupidity, let's start with her entrance ACoS ch 18. She barges into a private meeting with the most powerful man on the planet and some of his chief lieutenants, unannounced, unwelcome, and entirely unnecesssarily. It caused Rand to distrust her even more than he would any Aes Sedai. Not an intelligent way to begin an important association.

She doesn't advise. She corrects. She remonstrates. And, worst of all she does it publicly, undercutting Rand. Stupid in the extreme.

I repeat - DIE Cadsuane, DIE!

In return to 'appologist twaddle', I think your position is 'Mummy she was so mean to my hero!'

 

I don't care if Cadsuane hurt Rand's feelings. She did what was right, and it worked. You can't much get around that.

No my position is she was, is, and always will be irredeemably stoooooooooooopid.

Now I accept that if the characters do not act stupidly, there is no conflict, no tension, and no story. But, there quite simply is far too much stupidity in this series as is. By the time Cadsuane Melaidhrin shows up there are already at least 4372 named charaters acting very stupidly. There simply is no room left for the excessive stupidity of Cadsuane. DIE Cadsuane DIE! Preferably yesterday.

Read the original post. In particular the section you are looking for is Degrees of Nastiness, an Escalation of Nastiness, and The Culmination of Nasty Work. I lay and fully reference Cadsuane testing Rand's nature, choosing to force him, and her reasons for doing so.

I'm trying to think of something not terribly confrontational about this and I just can't. Those arguments are apologist twaddle.

In ACoS 18, she charges into a situation she knows nothing about, pushing and prodding a man who isn't really recovered yet from being kidnapped and abused, with no thought for the consequences of her ignorant blundering. She doesn't learn about the kidnap and abuse until after Rand gets wounded by Fain later in the book, and then comes out with her "won't hurt you more than I must." nonsense.

Fact is she shot herself in the foot with how she introduced herself in chapter 18. From there there was nowhere to go but downhill. And, downhill she went, taking Rand and everyone else with her on a toboggan ride very nearly all the way to Hell. There is almost nothing she could have done any worse than she did other than deliberately get Rand killed. She at least didn't manage to derange things that much.

Whoopdy-doo she managed to keep a bunch of even greater incompetents from killing Rand at the Cleansing. I'm not willing to give her a gold star for not being completely incompetent.

Dislike? No I flat hate her after that little bit of sadism. Why? Because she begins from the standpoint that she must hurt him. She never once considers that there might be another, better way.

 

She does actually consider it. She decides against it. I think she was right to do so.

I need a quote substantiating that.

 

And Cadsuane......Cadsuane touched Rand's pale face, brushed strands of hair from his forehead. "Do not be afraid boy," she said softly, "They made my task harder, and yours, but I will not hurt you more then I must

 

Not sure how anyone can really dislike Cads after that. Which is probably more genuinely compassionate for Rand then anything we've seen from anyone save Nyn or Min(and that includes Elayne or Avi!).

Dislike? No I flat hate her after that little bit of sadism. Why? Because she begins from the standpoint that she must hurt him. She never once considers that there might be another, better way.

The primary reason that Rand descends as far as he does is precisely because everyone keeps trying to manage, massage, and manipulate him. Cadsuane is simply the worst of those who have no real clue.

Yes, Cadsuane is pretty good at reading people. She intervenes and does so forcefully any and every time she believes she can get away with it. She refrains only when it is clear that Rand has made up his mind about what he's going to do and how he's going to do it. It's a fool, and one who is willing to be seen as a fool, who issues orders he knows won't be obeyed. Cadsuane is unwilling to ever be seen to be a fool.

Pull him back. Let him run. Make no mistake, Cadsuane is trying to accustom Rand to her and only her hand on the reins. Break him to saddle and bridle. Make him meek and biddable.

I might be able to tolerate all that, if she had even once attempted to sit down and talk to the man. To reason with him. To advise rather than order. After all, at nearly 300 years of age, she is supposed to be the adult in all her interactions, not merely the biggest, meanest little kid.

She's a waste. The single most poorly written character in the series.

According to Tor's website and Q&A that used to be contained thereon, the Horn of Valere was secreted at the Eye of the World along with the Dragon Banner because the Foretellings that make up The Prophecies of the Dragon said it must be.

 

 

You misread it. It actually says (bolding mine):

It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

 

 

IOW, one group of Fortellings became the Prophecies and there was another, separate Fortelling about the Horn itself that was not part of them.

OK, where are you getting your quote from? The one I've got does not include the parts you've bolded.

According to Encyclopaedia WOT, the Karaethon Cycle is also known as The Prophecies of the Dragon.

According to Tor's website and Q&A that used to be contained thereon, the Horn of Valere was secreted at the Eye of the World along with the Dragon Banner because the Foretellings that make up The Prophecies of the Dragon said it must be.

Yet, according to Chapter 20 of The Great Hunt, the Horn of Valere is not mentioned in the Karaethon Cycle.

So what is true here? Does Karaethon Cycle = The Prophecies of the Dragon?

If so, either the Horn was placed at the EoTW because the Prophesies said it must be or the Prophecies never mentioned it. It has to be one or the other but it can't be both.

If the KC does not equal TPotD, then what is the Karaethon Cycle?

Nope.

Old site had an Asmo thread that was nearly 200 pages that disappeared in the software changeover.  There was another one after the changeover here in the General forum that exceeded 100 pages.  And, still the one in the Structured forum that's over 200 pages now.

There has been an entire LoC sized book of posts about Asmo's death.