Graendal

TY

Who killed Asmodean? Was it Moridin? I always found this assassination to be needlessly enigmatic and annoying.

Faile and Elayne. Two totally unneccessary characters.

 

Yeah because saving the world by righting the weather counts for nothing?

 

Totally agreed on Faile though...

 

Aside from riding to gather reinforcements for the Two Rivers, in doing so saving many lives, including, most probably, one of the three ta'veren on whom the continued future of the world may depend :P And, you know, having the political and practical knowledge to do much of the management of Perrin's forces and helping him act as a leader when he seems determined not to. Yep. Faile does nothing :P

 

OK, in case that came across as a little snappy, not intended, I just haven't let out the Faile love for a while ;) I wouldn't label Faile as "necessary" in a sense- her role COULD have been played by another. But then, the same's true of many other characters in the book. Faile works well with Perrin because they complement each other, at least in terms of their skill sets. He is strong, cautious, he wants, or believes he wants, a simple life. Faile is political, she has knowledge of how to manage a large force of people on the move, and how to deal with other politicians- bear in mind that whilst we see Rand and Mat accomplishing a lot, not only by their ta'veren natures- Mat has his luck, Rand has his memories, and the knowledge by the world that he is the Dragon Reborn- when dealing with powerful leaders and other authority figures with much more experience behind them. Perrin, on the other hand, relies a lot on Faile in these matters- in ToM, for example, he lets Faile take the lead in negotiations with Elayne, because it is her strength, not his. Faile is very much a supporting character in a literal sense of the word- she's almost tailor made in her skills to be a good team with Perrin- and when he doesn't have her, he goes a little crazy trying to get her back- he allies with the Seanchan, he'd probably have allied with the Dark One himself. That's my thoughts on why Faile works for the plot, at least in part. I enjoy her as a character in her own right, though I recognise that most people disagree ;P

I totally agree. I have always liked Faile, especially since she provides the impetus for one of the few genuinely emotional scenes in WOT, when she gets Perrin to grieve for his dead family. Also, the love between Faile and Perrin is a great deal more believable than the romances between Rand and his somewhat fabricated three "wives" (to say nothing of Mat and Tuon!). The Perrin-rescuing-Faile-from-Shaido plot goes on WAY too long, but that is the only complaint I have about Faile's presence in the books.

Tel'aranrhiod. It always bored me before, but this time through the series I am struck by just how phony and unsubtle the whole concept is.

Incessantly repeated stereotypes: stout innkeepers; cooks who wield wooden spoons as weapons; ugly commoners/beautiful nobles; Brown ajah aes sedai with ink smudges on their noses; women with hard stares that should knock a horse flat and cause everyone around them to jump or run scared; "soft, as a stone is soft"; characters never ever guessing right about what someone else thinks; characters constantly lying to themselves and others out of sheer stupid pride; everyone thinking Rand's insane when he's just thinking out loud; shadowspawn attacks that are all too easily defeated and which serve little or no purpose, just an excuse for action in an otherwise frequently tension-free storyline.

And Mat's a jerk to Rand.

Thanks, everyone!

It's funny--this time through TSR and the prologue of TFOH, that particular Aes Sedai struck me as a possible candidate for Mesaana, (that smirk and the stuff with the masons were hints) but she was just one among others, and I would never go so far as to claim that I "guessed correctly." Still ... what a coincidence!

Again, thanks ... knowing this will really boost my enjoyment of her scenes.

A question for which I WANT a spoiler answer:

Who is Mesaana?

Obviously, having only read up through KOD, the Aes Sedai whom Mesaana is disguised as has not been revealed to me. I'm rereading WOT now, but I confess to feeling some impatience with RJ's frequently irritating mysteries. Frankly, I would like to know ahead of time who she is, so that when I encounter her on the page I can feel some genuine suspense vis a vis her interactions with others. This will enhance my enjoyment of the story, not ruin it ... at least that's how it works for me. I don't need all secrets to be revealed ahead of their time, but I would appreciate this one.

Pretty please, and thank you.

More annoying things:

[Paragraph deleted. Read our code of conduct]4

One more thing: mysteries that just don't matter much. I have only read up through Knife of Dreams, so I don't know as much as everyone else here does. Maybe Demandred's secret identity has been revealed, or maybe not. But to go by the discussion here, it would seem that Jordan/Sanderson admit that Demandred's secret identity doesn't even appear "on screen" until at least TGS. If that is the case, then what the hell good is the mystery? If there aren't any clues to be gleaned, then a mystery cannot be solved, and the ultimate revelation is meaningless. Same with Mesaana: I gather her secret identity has been revealed by now, but the only clue I remember--something about a fringe on her dress?--doesn't seem to be planted anywhere else for an observant reader to notice. (Maybe I'm wrong about that.)

The problem with these clueless mysteries is the lack of suspense. Real suspense is when we readers know something that the characters don't. There just isn't enough of this in WOT. I'll give an example of suspense done well: in Gene Wolfe's four-volume series THE BOOK OF THE LONG SUN, an important character is revealed, halfway through, to the reader alone and in a subtle fashion, to be an alien invader disguised as human. We then get to spend the rest of the series watching this disguised alien interact with other characters without any of them having a clue, but we live in dread for them because this character is so smart and charming and almost entirely unsuspicious--though we get hints of nefarious doings which we alone can recognize. When his evil alien nature is finally revealed to everyone, near the very end of the story, it is done in a manner which completely changes the game for everyone, and sets us up for the major themes of the story's sequel, THE BOOK OF THE SHORT SUN.

That's how it's done, people. Imagine, say, that Demandred is Mazrim Taim. Yes yes, I know, Jordan/Sanderson and others have ruled him out as a possibility, but just for the sake of argument: imagine that we readers discovered this, say during the course of LORD OF CHAOS, but the secret was kept from Rand and the others. Now that would create a terrible sense of suspense, us knowing that a Forsaken was leading the Ashaman! Mesaana in the White Tower should be suspenseful, but since we don't know which one she is, it is just another meaningless mystery to stretch out over hundreds of pages. All too often in WOT, when Jordan does shoot for a variety of this suspense, we are treated to mysterious characters that seem obvious to us and who should be obvious to our heroes--take Lord Luc being Slayer, for example. Luc is so obviously a villain in disguise that there is no suspense at all--we know damned well he's up to no good, and Perrin seems almost dumb in the way he hates and distrusts Luc and yet is surprised when he learns that Luc is Slayer. Sometimes, Jordan gets it right: Egeanin befriending Nynaeve and Elayne is a good example, and the moment when Domon reveals that Egeanin "do be Seanchan!" is a terrific and memorable one just because we've been waiting in suspense for that revelation to come, and to see how the Supergirls react to it.

Okay, rant over. I like WOT, but it's good to get these things off my chest. Over the course of thousands of pages, irritations do tend to build up a head of steam.

The Player of Games, Iain M. Banks. Terrific book, highly recommended.

One of his best for sure. I'm glad that some other people on here read Banks, the guy's created an amazing sci-fi universe.

 

Have you read his latest release, Surface Detail? I would put it up as his second best book, behind PoG. Compelling story, some awesome scenes with Culture warships, and it actually's got some nice philosophy in it.

I read Banks's novel FEERSUM ENDJINN many years ago. I liked the world he created in it, but looking back, I can scarcely believe I got through it. The phonetic spelling used in half of the book was really off-putting. Someday I imagine I'll tackle his "Culture" novels.

Thanks for the warning about JOHNATHAN STRANGE AND MR. NORRELL. I like novels that aren't light reading (and the last book on my list, Wyndham Lewis's THE CHILDERMASS, is by reputation extremely heavy reading), and I'm really looking forward to it.

Right now I'm rereading WOT for the 5th time. I'm in the middle of TSR right now.

Over the last year I read Milton's PARADISE LOST, Bronte's WUTHERING HEIGHTS and Waugh's A HANDFUL OF DUST. Also LORD VALENTINE'S CASTLE by Robert Silverberg. Amongst graphic novels, I read PREACHER by Garth Ennis, LOST GIRLS by Alan Moore, and ZOT! by Scott McCloud. Some literary criticism from David Denby and James Wood, including THE WESTERN CANON and JESUS AND YAHWEH by Harold Bloom. Biggest of all these reading projects was my umpteenth reread of Gene Wolfe's SUN books, twelve volumes in all.

Although I intend to keep up with WOT until I catch up with everyone else (I've only read through KOD, though I have TGS and TOM waiting on my bookshelf), other books on my shortlist of novels-to-read include JOHNATHAN STRANGE AND MR. NORRELL by Susannah Clarke, I CLAUDIUS by Robert Graves, and THE CHILDERMASS by Wyndham Lewis.

Plot shields around major characters are certainly to be expected. For instance, as I recall, out of all the major and minor protagonists in THE LORD OF THE RINGS only Boromir and Theoden actually die, and of course Gandalf's supposed death in Moria was a red herring (even if it did serve the function of empowering him to overcome Saruman). But series like DUNE or GORMENGHAST or A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE show that you can incorporate the deaths of major characters and thereby enrich the story ... and I believe those are better works of fiction than WOT or TLOTR. Frankly, I wish Moiraine had been allowed to die a true and heroic death--not because I disliked her (I like her a lot) but because it would have leant gravitas and meaning to her sacrifice.

The sufferings, dismemberments, and endangerment of major characters are necessary for story development, and it's good that Jordan included a good deal of this, but they don't often seem to have a whole lot of impact, though I am grateful when they do.

As far as sexism goes, I think that the idea that Jordan meant for his world to be a reversal of the standard pre-feminist human society is correct. Our own world is only barely beginning to reverse the misogynistic standards of the past. By the future time of the Age of Legends, it would be logical to presume that true equality of the sexes had been achieved. After the Breaking, when only women have (or are allowed to have) awesome magical powers, it only makes sense that misandry and backlashes against it (i.e. Whitecloaks) would reign supreme. So all of that "sexism" is probably intentional, even if it does get wearying to the reader.

Ugh can we ease up on the condescension just a tad?! Anyways I don't even know why I'm posting in this thread, this site's purpose is for fans of the world RJ created to gather and share their enjoyment of one of the best epic fantasy series I've ever read, and discuss possible theories and whatnot. And yet, more threads are devoted to what's wrong with the series than most topics I've seen addressed. If there's so much wrong with this series, why even discuss it and criticize it when you can move on to the next book/series? It's not like anyone is paying you for your flaming criticisms.

Just because I like WOT doesn't mean it doesn't deserve criticism. I think a lot of WOT fans have a love/hate relationship with the series and its creator. We recognize that WOT is immense, complex, and impressive, but we don't think Jordan was the greatest writer (or even necessarily a good one) or that his creation is flawless. Flaws and all, I keep coming back to it....

 

 

Oh my god.

 

I was going to apologize for being an arse: even if my comment was relatively mild, it was still rude. And being a gentleman, I still will:

 

I apologize for being an arse.

 

But seriously--to equate your imperfect knowledge with perfect sight-unseen critical judgment? How arrogant and ignorant can you get?

 

 

Thank you for the apology.

However, I see that you are twisting around my words with gross exaggerations. Seriously, give me an honest answer. If a person has been reading fantasy books for 30 years as I have, doesn't it make logical sense that said person would have at least have HEARD about Peake's trilogy if that trilogy was a very good and very well known piece of literature?

I asked you a legitimate question, ... with some attitude behind the question, I'll admit, and in response I get little more than attacks against me by others before you, and then you yourself.

Now I am being shown again why I dislike coming to the WOT General Discussion forums because of all of the hyper-critical posts that I read here.

@Vambram:

An honest answer about how you managed to miss something out there in the wide world?

How could I know that? I don't know you or what you've read. Doubtless your bookshelves and mine have some contents in common and not others. All I can tell you is this: I read a lot of novels, and I also read a lot of books about novels, i.e. literary criticism. It was while reading one such critical tome back in high school (back in the 1980s) that I learned about Gormenghast (as well as most of the authors and works that I have since read and come to love). But I don't imagine that there are no good authors that I've never heard of. It is a strange, rather defensive claim to make, saying in effect that if you haven't heard of it it must not be any good.

Look, I'm not here to fight with you. I don't mean to twist your words, but I can only interpret them as I read them. I don't mean to be rude or boorish. And opinions are like assholes: everybody's got one, and the bigger the opinion, the bigger the asshole. So I apologize once again for my assholish behavior, though not for my opinion, which is just this: no matter how good you or I or anyone else thinks WOT (or anything else) is, there's always something better. Except maybe for Shakespeare.

I'm sorry you've never heard of Peake before. He's not that obscure, though. The books were published in the 1940s and 50s. Peake was a famous British poet and painter in his day, and he died fairly young of encephalitis. The books were never as popular as Tolkien's stuff but they did have a good run during the fantasy-friendly 60s, and have stayed in print. The BBC produced a four hour television miniseries adaptation of the first two (and most relevant) books in the trilogy back in the year 2000, I believe; Christopher Lee, Fiona Shaw, and Johnathan Rhys-Meyers were amongst the stars. Be aware that Gormenghast (as I have said in another post) is not sword and sorcery style fantasy, lacking magic and monsters; if that is the only sort of fantasy you have read (which I will not presume) then it is unlikely that you will have heard of it. All I can say is that he is out there, he has been influential on many other writers, and has an enduring (not to say cult) following.

Truce?

True, true; I'm gnashing my teeth going thru WH.. and CoT yet to come..I haven't decided if I'm going to read Cot or use Wot Encyl. summaries for it. Cot is just.. bad there's no other way to describe it. and Gormenghast is.. different, it's hard to describe..but Steerpike would fit right into Wot backstabbing nobles and cut throats heh.

Yes, COT was terrible--boring and inconsequential. The nadir of the series. The only memorable moments from COT are those times when Aes Sedai and others sense the massive amount of the One Power being used at Shadar Logoth, leaving them all awestruck and uneasy. That was cool. Everything else ... uggh.

Winter's Heart, on the other hand, I enjoyed ... or at least, I remember enjoying the Cleansing of Saidin and ensuing battle; quite thrilling, that.

Yes, Gormenghast is "different." It is not at all akin to the sword and sorcery sort of fantasy that is so often taken for the whole of fantasy literature by some of its readers. No magic, no monsters. But there's incredible atmosphere, an epic sense of scale in the Castle itself, and the characters are of a very high literary quality. I for one think Gormenghast is a better fantasy than WOT or even The Lord of the Rings, but it is certainly not capable of enchanting as large an audience as works such as those, and in any case they are simply too unalike for a meaningful comparison. And yes, Steerpike surely is reminiscent of other ruthless villain types, but we get to know him in an almost Shakespearean way, the same as we do the other people in the story. By the way, the duel between Flay and Swelter in the first book is probably the greatest fight I've ever read in a novel.

It is understood amongst fans of Peake that the third book in the Gormenghast trilogy is not as good as the first two; it's even weirder, and lacks focus. Peake was dying from a kind of encephalitis during the years he struggled to write it, and the strain shows. Like Robert Jordan, he didn't get a chance to finish his masterpiece.

Dude, you need a reality check if you think that series is even 1/3 as popular and read by as many people as was the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

 

Didn't say anything of the sort. Just thought it was quite odd that you would use when it was published to make a conclusion on the "vast majority" not having read Gormenghast. Or even better questioning the quality of the work because you hadn't heard of it.

 

As for me I thought the first two books were quite well done...third not so much. His descriptive style along with dark, surrealist influences really make it unique.

 

So, you were one of the small percentage of fantasy readers that are still alive today whom have read Peake's books. Congrats.

As to why I think I am qualified to determine whether or not a series is better than the WOT? Well, because I have been reading fantasy books for 30 years.. and because I have read books from several other genres, then it is safe for me to believe that if I have not heard of a fantasy book series, then the probability is very high that it ain't as good as Robert Jordan's WOT series.

Oh my god.

I was going to apologize for being an arse: even if my comment was relatively mild, it was still rude. And being a gentleman, I still will:

I apologize for being an arse.

But seriously--to equate your imperfect knowledge with perfect sight-unseen critical judgment? How arrogant and ignorant can you get?

Let's see:

 

Seanchan

Mat

Sea folk

Eggy

Aiel

rampant misandry

lack of screen time for the Borderlanders and Ogier

 

All in all, it's still probably the best fantasy series I've ever read.

I agree about the Seanchan, Sea Folk, and Mat--I thought I was the only one who finds him annoying rather than supercool.

As for it being the best fantasy series you've read ... you need to get out more.

How else should RJ put it? "Nynaeve folds her arms beneath her chesticles?"

lol actually ALL you have to say is "she folded her arms" or "she crossed her arms". we KNOW where it was in relation to her breasts! you don't say "he sat down on his buttocks" or "he folded his hands near his penis" do you? I guarantee you you don't! to me it just seemed like a poor way of forcing a contrived sensuality into the writing that didn't really belong

Is everything to do with sexuality--or even "sexual" anatomy--then automatically a commercial consideration? I wish, for reasons of art and verisimilitude, that there was much more sex in WOT; it would reduce the sense of juvenalia.

Man, I hate prudes.

Yeah, if you think Robert Jordan overdid the description it's nothing compared to Gormenghast. But the way Peake used language and description was much more effective, and it never felt like padding, at least to me. The incredibly gothic world demanded that level of detail and since the first two books take place almost exclusively within the same castle it really works well.

 

But I could gush for hours on why I think Gormenghast is the greatest thing ever and I have no desire to derail the topic so I'll just say that it's worth a try if you enjoyed WoT.

Ah, Gormenghast! I read Peake's magnificent trilogy when I was 19, at least 7 years before I ever touched WOT. A good reminder that for all of Jordan's qualities, he is far from being the greatest fantasy writer.

Do you have any idea

uh, no offense but maybe your reading skill is not on a level with mine? I only say this because for me catching typos is EXTREMELY easy...in fact I can't NOT. it is my burden and my curse. for instance when you write things like

 

In once case,

or

 

by just to make sure

I can't help but read what you wrote as you wrote it. ordinarily I would NEVER point it out or care in the least or think less of anyone for it (especially not when its just casual internet posting)...I just don't think it belongs in a WoT book! yes I could easily catch and fix every typo in a week or less...ALL you have to do is read each word, remain focused while doing so and have good spelling. maybe thats beyond most people but proofreaders of a major series should have that.

 

@ cindy I am in complete agreement with you and ares. the proofreaders should be well compensated for their effort (IMO its an important-ish job they do) and given MORE than one day to accomplish their task. if I was treated like crap then yes, I too would probably poison WoT with typo after typo as an act of rebellion. the ultimate fault (as usual) lies with management. "hey there's still all these typos...ok, what's going on with the proofreader(s)?" <- how hard is that

 

the title of the thread is "what you dislike most about the series" well I cringe at all the typos, sorry! its a totally fixable thing for a competent company and you will never convince me otherwise

Catching typos that others make is one thing; catching your own is another. I notice that you fail to correctly punctuate the contracted form of "it is" in your post. Failing to capitalize words may be your personal choice, but mistaking "its" for "it's" is simply incorrect usage.

Sincerely, the Grammar Gestapo.

It seems like everyone else has already covered it all, so I'll just pull a Jordan and repeat what's already been said ad nauseum:

Feminine bullying.

Repetition of descriptions, phrases, traits, and explanations.

Little attempt to keep minor characters clear (by the latter half of the series I need notes to keep me abreast of just who the hell these stupid people are).

Willful obscurity.

Dragging out over thousands of pages what could be done in a few hundred.

Inability to let characters just plain die (stupid Moridin).

Filler filler filler. And more filler.

Introduction of new major characters too late in the story (Moridin, again).

Mistaking confusion (readers don't know what the hell's going on) for suspense (characters don't know what the hell's going on but the reader does and so can worry about what might happen to the characters).

Prudishness. Whoever said that WOT isn't naughty enough for HBO is absolutely right. The prudery isn't universal to all WOT cultures and nations but it damn well is to the Two Rivers and that keeps the books from feeling adequately adult rather than juvenile.

The irritable personalities of almost everyone. Being pissy isn't terribly attractive.

The frequent clumsiness of Jordan's prose.

The fact that I keep rereading it anyway ... but at least I don't delude myself that WOT is the greatest fantasy series of all time. It's just the longest and possibly the most complex. But it sure isn't the greatest.