Honestly they should have just had Amalisa first throw weaker lightning, that was insufficient to actually stop the trollocs, and then in desperation to save her city, intentionnally pull far more than she can safely handle and boom big lightning and so on.

Rand being able to channel so much thanks to the eye is a pretty clear early bookism. That and the eye being a one of a kind thing + Rand being the Dragon Reborn + Rand being pretty much the strongest taveren ever.

Its not supposed to make sense given the established rules of channelling, but at the same time those rules get broken at times, impossible things become possible, so I feel like this is one of those mysteries that are acceptable. 

I do worry a little about showcasing such immense power so early, without the precise conditions Rand was given in the book. And there's a lot of stuff Rand pulls in the books where you just go eh, he's the Dragon Reborn, so pass.

I think the scene was poorly done, but could have been better had a few details been changed.

The main source of power is Nyneave, and at that point she's somewhere between Moiraine and Moghedien (her strength at the end of book 4). Add in Amalisa, who would be of mediocre strength at best, that really isn't enough to justify the destructive power showcased. My issue is that it would be fine if they had done a better job of showing Amalisa basically going nuclear (like Eldrene) in order to have enough power. 

Unfortunately it feels like they did it the wrong way around: she blows up the army and then, unable to let go, pulls too much of the power. Should be the other way around.

As for Egwene healing Nyneave, it doesn't really matter to me. It wasn't done well at all (looked like she was healing death, so not good for casual audiences), but Egwene actually having healing ability unlike in the book changes absolutely nothing other than a passing detail.

Amazon isn't pouring milions of dollars into these adaptation just to cater to the fans of the source material though. They want to cater to the largest possible audience, and will insist on all kinds of changes in order to achieve that. Faithfulness to the original work just isn't the priority for them.

The showrunner hopefully tries to limit that (and also, you know, put out a good show hopefully), but their power is ultimately limited.

Incidentally, this could also be why fantasy adaptation are very difficult. They cost a ton of money meaning they become in a sense "too big too fail". Which in turn causes greater meddling from the producers, when they should just be letting the actual showrunner/filmaker/script writers do their jobs.

5 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

In the flashback at the start showing the 3 rings for the elves - and I think again at the end on the ship taking the ring bearers from middle earth.

Yeah you just don’t really get a good look at him I think. Believe he’s actually supposed to have a beard.

40 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

According to the Tokien Gateway, that choice is in the "The Silmarillion, "Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath"".

Something Amazon doesn't have the rights to.

I mean sure but I don't really see how that affects how they choose to represent him. They don't actually have to say that he's a half elven who chose to be elven, just actually show him as such. I'd be shocked he's not named as Elrond half-elven at some point in the LotR as well. 

Anyway, it's more that the elves are kinda all over the place in age appearance in RoP. Whereas in LotR they pretty much all look ageless. Only one who really shows his age should be Cirdan, and I don't recall if he showed up in LotR.

6 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

Well, he is half human?

Yeah but he was given the choice between elf and human, and chose to be an elf.

As over the top as it was, I could accept the Nyneave mass heal. Simply because it is afterall what she's good at, it came from a deep emotional place (again fitting for Nyneave), and it demonstrated her considerable power. And it legitimately looked amazing.

Her holding off machin sin on the other hand? Just why. Could have just given Moiraine her time to shine, just like in the books, where she holds machin sin and opens the escape path. Only reason I can think of is, oh yes, the Dragon Reborn mystery...

Having a lot of tall and slender actors play elves also helps.

On 10/21/2022 at 12:23 PM, DojoToad said:

Self-inflicted limitation there...

The less said about that whole "plot" the better. If it hadn't existed my opninion of the show would probably be significantly better.

22 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

In the book finale of Book 1, Perrin is all around useless, Lan is pretty much completely absent, and while Rand does give a show of uncontrolled power (NOT related to breaking the seal), in the show breaking the seal /is/ a considerable show of uncontrolled power since the seal is cuendillar and cannot be broken, and Moiraine and Lan make that clear. 

Also Rand has plenty of time to show the slow escalation of his power. If he does all the big special effects in S1, he doesn't have anywhere to go.  Special effects budgets can only go so far.  This way there's plenty of room for more drama to go.

Don't really agree, they all are together fighting their way to the Eye in the book. Lan in particular is very much at the forefront of the fighting. Its only when the Forsaken arrive that it all comes down to Rand (and at first Moiraine).

Regardless though the book is not the tv show. The book is almost exclusively from Rand's perspective, putting him front and center, so it makes sense that the ending is the same way. The tv show intentionally splits the pie up amongst the Two River characters far more than the book. They try to call back to Perrin's struggle with violence for a second but frankly it falls flat. Perrin's issue isn't defending himself, it's losing control of himself in the middle of the fight. That is what needed to be shown of him in the last episode.

As for Rand's show of power, to me it's simply not enough. It doesn't come across to me as some massive show of power that the show had been hinting the Dragon would be capable of. Especially considering the fact that he was using a Sangreal. To be clear I do like the confrontation between Rand and Ishamael, I just think its lacked at little oomph at the end. That, and I would have prefered if the conflict between Rand and Ishamael had been about Rand's identity and his struggle with being the Dragon Reborn, rather than focusing on Egwene, since the former has far more impact on Rand's character arc than Egwene ultimately does. It would have been an opportunity to bring in Tam as well. Like I said though I like the general idea of the confrontation.

On 10/16/2022 at 7:50 PM, expat said:

Why would they want to be free of the Dark One?  The wanted to be Nae'blis which they could only do by being a servant of the Dark One.  Also, there wasn't enough saidin in the pool to permeantly escape the Dark One.  The pool didn't last one fight and they would have to assume they would be attacked by the other Forsaken at some point.

 

I don't mean free as in renouncing the shadow. I mean free as in they're not completely reliant on him when it comes to the One Power. They're Forsaken, they'd much rather not rely on anyone but themselves.

Robert Jordan went very heavy in the first book with the whole the Wheel weaves as the wills idea. Nearly every thing you said is Moiraine justifying it by thinking this is what the wheel is pointing them towards, and trusting that they must trust in their fate. Which doesn't make it fine obviously but it is an explanation, as transparent as it might be.

I don't recall about Egwene and Nyneave really (maybe Min's vision was brought up? Not sure), but she wanted Rand, Mat, and Perrin all there because they were very powerful ta'veren, and even their passive pressence would have a considerable impact.

Arriving at the Eye perfectly on time isn't suprising, since it's specifically supposed to be about need. Makes sense they would arrive there when they need it most.

Aginor and Balthamel attack the EOTW because its a way for them to be free of the Dark One. They were only free of the taint so long as the Dark One allowed them to be. Which is why later when saidin is cleansed, one of the female Forsaken points out that they must be worried the Dark One will no longer trust them as much since they aren't reliant on him.

Anyway the ending of the first book is all over the place regardless. I still enjoy it of course but its hardly his finest work. It's still significantly more satisfying then episode 8 that said. I can't hold some things too much against the show without knowing the effect Covid had on the filming. So things like the combination of the Shienarans being mostly useless, and Amalisa wiping out all (or most, whatever) of the trollocs I'm dissapointed with but can't judge too harshly. Same with Mat not being there and the blight's lackluster appearance (in my opinion). However the horn coming out of nowhere, Perrin being all around useless, Lan being completely absent, and Rand not giving a considerable show of (uncontrolled) power after breaking the seal I definitely hold against it. The last is particularly egregious what with the buildup they gave to how powerful the Dragon Reborn will be. Adaptation or not, thats just poor payoff to me.

I actually like the overal structure of the episode (yes even Rand not appearing at the battle), but the execution left a lot to be desired sadly.

4 hours ago, nsmallw said:

What exactly is her block anyway. In the tv show it seems like she has to be afraid/enraged either for herself or others.  Others thoughts..

My hope is that it'll be PTSD from her near death at the end of the 1st season. She nearly died because she had given up control, which is exactly what you have to do to wield saidar. So her block will be her inability to give up control I imagine. Which frankly is more interesting than simply needing to be angry in my opinion.

Yeah strictly speaking only elves with Vanyar descent should, or could rather, have blonde hair, I believe. Which means almost nobody in Middle Earth.

1 hour ago, Dagon Thyne said:

 They did know about the existence of the true power and that it was a tainted version of the one power is 1 power used by the dark .  This was the reason for their hesitation to use the one power to try to refill him.  They feared that it would be tainted in some way.  This was confirmed by Robert Jordan.  

Really? I can't find anything about it in the interview database. You don't happen to remember when he said that by any chance?

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

The cold open did a horrible job of portraying how desperate things were.  The strike on the DO was born out of desperation and knowing they were about to lose the war.  It seemed way to casual of a coversation.

 

LTT's memories ensured Rand didn't make the same mistake.  Without them Rand would have been going in totally blind like LTT was.

 

The Big White Book does a good job of explaining the situation.  The plan to use the giant se'angreal statues was doomed to fail because when LTT was devising his plan, the place where the ter'angeral to access the huge statues were lost.  The area they were being made was overrun by the shadow.  The ter'angeral were successfully hidden but now the Aes Sedai had no safe way to use the se'angreal.  They believed even the strongest Aes Sedai that tried to use access the giant statues would be burned out by the huge flow of One Power, probably within minutes.  The pattern basicly forced LTT to do his plan.

Yep, I've often though that the pattern forced things to happen as they did. It's supposed to be a complete coincidence that the shadow happened to attack where the access keys were, which, yeah right.

On 8/6/2022 at 7:00 AM, Dagon Thyne said:

I remember RJ saying once that the reason the female Aes Sedai refused to help LTT was because they didn't like the idea of using the OP to directly imprison the DO.  And they were right.  Using Saidin to try to hold the DO in his prison allowed him to taint it just like the TP is tainted.  They knew the TP existed, and that it was a corrupted, but undivided version of the OP used by the DO.  It's why they drilled the bore to begin with.  They like feared a possible taint like that of the TP if the OP were used directly on him, and that's exactly what happened.

 

Rand realized this and realized that the TP could be used to shield the OP from being directly touched.

Strictly speaking the fear was not about using the OP to imprison the DO directly, or indeed touching him directly with it, but simply about channelling near Shayol Ghul, same as in the Third Age actually. That and placing the seals was incredibly dangerous. It was about proximity, and the risk to the individuals taking part in the attack not a danger to saidin itsef.

In fact its all but certain they did not know the tainting of saidin was possible, since the taint was not discovered for some time after.

44 minutes ago, expat said:

Sometimes you lose the ability to suspend belief needed to read fantasy.  This was one of those scenes.  It just struck me as so wrong to the characters that the seams of plot progression became too obvious.

 

I definitely get that. When I first read it my my reaction was definitely in part “Of course Egwene is made Amyrlin, can’t have one of the main characters not having great importance”. Up until then Egwene was kinda trudging along without being very impactful. I suppose the motivation behind was simply convincing enough for me.

35 minutes ago, Kalessin said:

Let's see, Galadriel is the daughter of Finarfin the youngest son of Finwe, the King of the Noldorin, and Earwen the daughter of Olwe, the King of the Teleri, who is the brother of Elu Thingol, King of the Sindarin (Teleri who remained in Middle Earth in the First Age). Gil-Galad is the son of Fingon, the son of Fingolfin, the second-oldest son of Finwe.

 

Galadriel is thus Fingon's first cousin, since their fathers are brothers. She's Gil-Galad's first cousin once removed. (Source: The Silmarillion)

Yeah that’s with Fingon. I just don’t know what considered the most likely nowadays. Issue with him being Fingon’s son is it begs the question of why Turgon became king instead of him when Fingon died.

2 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Would the pattern have been totally sundered by Profligate use of Balefire?

Who knows, events could have turned out differently in a number of ways.

I tend to think that was an overreaction anyway. If the pattern didn’t get torn apart in the Age of Legends between what was literal armies of channellers, I have a hard time believing Taim would manage it. 

I guess that depends on what Rand would qualify as in your comparison. Cause part of the reason for choosing Egwene was her ties to Rand. So a Jesus figure who could set off Armagedon and blow up the whole world?

Also the black ajah was involved in her election as well, if I remember correctly. They were creating division and strife in the tower at every possible turn and Egwene becoming Amyrlin furthered that goal.

Still regardless of whether it made sense or not, enjoying that twist is a seperate thing. I didn't care either way but found it more interesting once the reasoning was revealed.

9 minutes ago, expat said:

You have it absolutely backwards.  Egwene's nomination as Amyrlin is bizarre from the Aes Sedai's perspective.  The whole series hammers the Aes Sedai's psyche that Novices and Accepted are not Aes Sedai.  They are students needing strong guidance to achieve Aes Sedai status. They haven't shown they are worthy yet by passing the Aes Sedai tests.

Another part of their mindset is that the three oaths are integral to making them what they are.  Accepted haven't taken the oaths.

The rebel leaders would never entertain the notion that an Accepted should be placed over them.  Their world view is cast in concrete after decades or hundreds of years as Aes Sedai.  It's comparable to a 90-year-old voting for a Democrat or Republican for the first time after voting a straight party ticket for 70 years.

Yes that is all true which is exactly why she wasn't intended to be a true Amyrlin. Only a puppet, only for show. They don't care that she's hasn't shown she's worthy or anything. They don't want someone worthy.

They (the sitters and particularly Lelaine and Romanda) were very pointedly not treating her like an Amyrlin, ignoring her authority entirely because she wasn't meant to have any. She was nothing more than the person meant to take the fall when everything got cleaned up. In fact Lelaine straight up tells her to her face that she's just a figure head, nothing more, she wields no actual power.

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

That then leads to what happens when the land they were king of, is no more? 
Do they ignore their bloodlines until they create their own kingdom, and prior to that have to defer to the king of the land they currently reside?

I'm pretty sure immortality throws a big monkey wrench into succession..

I don't believe any of the noldorin kings ever survived the fall of their kingdom, and some, like Fingolfin, died before it fell. So that was never an issue.

As for immortality and succesion, Ingwe, high king of all the elves, is sitting pretty in Valinor at over 10000 years of age by the end of the third age, so his children might be getting a tad impatient.

18 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I've never delved that deep into Lotr lore. Don't really care that much lol.
From the show, if we assume everything else about linages from the book are true (Until otherwise stated) then my guess is that they don't care about linage, but about who's currently the leader.

Does the combined works of Tolkien go into how elvish leadership works? Is it the same way human kingdoms work?

Oh for sure, with how limited the show is on what they can pull from the books since they have the rights to very little, basically can’t assume anything is the same.

I imagine they’re portraying Elrond and Galadriel as younger and less mature then they probably would be in the books (particularly Galadriel), maybe to show how they get to being where they are in the LotR.

As for how Elvish leadership work, I don’t recall it being any different then human leadership but I’m no expert. The title of high king of the Noldor for instance went from father to eldest son (Finwe, Feanor, Maehdros who surrendered it to Fingolfin, then Fingon, Turgon, and lastly Gil-Galad). Elrond himself is the great grandson of Turgon through his daughter if I remember correctly.