Recall from the start we said it's not about generic fantasy tropes.

Recall what I said about the vast majority of similarities being generic tropes.

 

"Male wizards are derided/looked upon with fear/need to be controlled. (&)There are no organized male institutions in the modern day." How many have devices like the a'dam and gender specific type magic that use woven flows of elements?

What you're asking for is too specific. I can find series where magic users are looked down on I'm sure but I don't know if they will be male. It may be that only RJ and Goodkind chose to spin the trope that way. I'll also note that iirc male magic users are NOT looked down on universally in Goodkinds series. The Midlands was friendly to Wizards.

 

We are talking about incredibly specific things. And it's not just one or two, but many things that go beyond generic.

That's what I'm trying to say. It IS just a few things.

Prophecy.
 
Harry Potter

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..."

 
Sword of Truth

Of all there were, but a single one born of the magic to bring forth truth will remain alive when the shadow's threat is lifted. Therefore comes the greater darkness of the dead. For there to be a chance at life's bond, this one in white must be offered to her people, to bring their joy and good cheer. - Page 341

 
Wheel of Time

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow,
born once more as he was born before,
and shall be born again, time without end.
The Dragon shall be Reborn,
and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth.
In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people,
and he shall break the world again by his coming,
tearing apart all ties that bind.
Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us,
yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle
and his blood shall give us the Light.
Let tears flow, O ye people of the world.
Weep for your salvation.

 

Orphan Rescue.

Rand - Wheel of Time

Olver - Wheel of Time

Richard - Sword of Truth

Eragon - Inheritance Cycle

Orik - Inheritance Cycle

Aragorn - Lord of the Rings

Harry Potter - Harry Potter

Neville Longbottom - Harry Potter

 

Religious Zealots.

Blood of the Fold - Sword of Truth

Children of the Light - Wheel of Time

Followers of R'hllor - A Song of Ice and Fire

Steel Ministry - Mistborn

Tal'Darim - Starcraft

(Granted the last two don't necessarily "fight evil")

 

Special/named Sword.

Callandor - Wheel of Time

Justice - Wheel of time

Sword of Truth - Sword of Truth

Brisingr - Inheritance Cycle

Zar'roc - Inheritance Cycle

Anduril/Narsil - Lord of the Rings

Sting - Lord of the Rings

Glamdring - Lord of the Rings

Orcrist - Lord of the Rings

Grond - Lord of the Rings

Excalibur - Arthurian Legend

Sword of Shannara - Sword of Shannara

Needle - A Song of Ice and Fire

Lion's Tooth - A Song of Ice and Fire

Longclaw - A Song of Ice and Fire

Ice - A Song of Ice and Fire

Oathkeeper - A Song of Ice and Fire

Sword of Gryffindor - Harry Potter

Twinkle - Drizzt series

Icingdeath - Drizzt series

 

Satisfied? I'm not going to spend hours thinking about tropes and different series and how they are used when I'm sure someone will just come back and accuse me of cherry picking anyway. Instead of me providing some comprehensive list of tropes for both series and other series those tropes are used in why don't you give me JUST ONE similarity that you think is unique to just the wheel of time and sword of truth series.

Also I don't see how the point was lacking as I didn't see any argument against it that was not "yeah, but look at all this other stuff".

Oh, my post that I made hours ago got ate

Cool story forum

 

Anyway to sum up what I posted before you haven't addressed my point about why the number of similarities between the two series matter when both series also share a large number of the same tropes with other series. It's not a matter of one ripping off the other it's that both are using common (and some uncommon) tropes that are also used by other authors before and after both series were published.

 

And yes I did address the "position and use within plot" argument.

Suttree: If you're using the same tropes it would follow that they are used generally in the same ways at the same times in a story. Prophecy for example usually comes early in a story, with bits and pieces sometimes becoming clearer as the story goes on until the end where it's made completely clear.

In other words tropes are used the way tropes are used. If you're using a certain trope it follows that the reasons and/or timing of that trope will be fairly consistent across series. That's what makes it a trope or cliche.

But it doesn't take those tropes from WoT that's my point. WoT doesn't own those tropes, didn't create them. They are not unique to WoT.

 

If you can show me some things that are unique to just those two series then I'd give the argument some consideration but as far as I can think of they don't share any similarities that they don't also share with other series.

Ares: I think you are missing my point rather than the other way around. I was just using an example to illustrate that the similarities between WoT and SoT are not unique to them and are actually shared across the genre. My point is that if they are not unique then why does the number of similarities matter? You can name any two random series and find dozens of tropes and plot devices they share.

 

Suttree: If you're using the same tropes it would follow that they are used generally in the same ways at the same times in a story. Prophecy for example usually comes early in a story, with bits and pieces sometimes becoming clearer as the story goes on until the end where it's made completely clear.

 

Agitel: See my argument above. You can provide thousands of examples and that isn't going to sway me unless you address the fact that if these things are not unique to just SoT and WoT (the vast majority are not) then why would it matter how many examples there are? A thousands bad examples does not make a good argument is what I'm saying.

 

 

 

Yeah I don't know why the number of examples would make a difference if none of them are exclusive to both series (meaning one was obviously borrowed from the other).

As I said before:

 

While many fantasy stories share universal myths and archetypes, SOT uses a number of quite specific items taken from the WoT that are not a dime a dozen in fantasy.

As Luckers said in an old thread:

 

The issue here, at least for me, is number and nature of the correlations between The Sword of Truth and the Wheel of Time. Their position and purpose within the plot are just too similar to result from the idea that both men drew from the same mythologies.

Add in to that his answers about RJ and fantasy in general, well it paints a pretty clear picture.

Yeah but that doesn't really address my question of why the number of similarities would make a difference if the similarities are not unique to only Wheel of Time and Sword of Truth.

 

Look here is the point. While many fantasies stories share universal myths and archetypes, SOT uses a number of quite specific items taken from the WoT that are not a dime a dozen in fantasy. It is the sheer number of those type of similarities, that causes people to quite rightly call foul.

I really can't think of one similarity between the two that couldn't be found in another series.

When you have a similarity to another series, people probably aren't going to cry foul. When you have a similarity to any number of works in the same genre, then people might accuse you of cliché but if they accuse you of plagiarism they will hardly be taken seriously. When you have a number of very specific similarities to another work, that looks suspicious. It's not a problem to share ten ideas with ten different works, but sharing ten ideas with the same work looks rather more dodgy. When you say X is similar to Dune, Y is similar to Earthsea, Z is similar to Lord of the Rings, and so on, that's not the same thing as saying X,Y and Z (not to mention A, B, C, D, E, F, and G) are all similarities between WoT and SoT. The case against SoT has been made before, and it is quite damning.

Of course, the damning problems with SoT are there even if you ignore any accusations of plagiarism. Even thinking about how bad it is makes my thing rise up so that I have to kick a six year old in the jaw. Of course, the book itself offers an explanation for its own success: "Wizard's First Rule: people are stupid."

Yes but what I am saying is I don't think there are that many examples that WoT and SoT share that they don't also share with other series.

I'll take the example of Aes Sedai and the Sisters of the Light as I believe they are one of the examples that would be cited, correct me if I'm wrong though.
Yes, WoT and SoT share a school/bastion of magic using women. But coming to the conclusion that one is taken from the other is being far too hasty in my opinion.
Here are a few other examples of such things in other works:
1.Beauxbatons Academy of Magic from Harry Potter.
2.Miss Cackle's Academy for Witches from The Worst Witch.
3. Greenlaw College from Scholarly Magics.
4. Wyverly College from Old Kingdom.
5. Witch Girls has several schools for witches.
6. And I'd even go so far as to cite the women of Avalon that take Arthur after he is mortally wounded.

Maybe this isn't the example you would have chosen to use though and I'm open to hearing others.

Yeah I don't know why the number of examples would make a difference if none of them are exclusive to both series (meaning one was obviously borrowed from the other).

It's possible he lied so that crazy fans wouldn't accuse him of stealing. Or maybe he's not paying homage.

 

As for showing disdain for fantasy. I remember the guy who was working on the Hobbit films before PJ officially took over saying something similar about Tolkien.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything though. Like I said I don't care if people don't like him. I'm just saying I don't really see any evidence of ripping off RJ that isn't just a fantasy trope.

 

And I really wouldn't know where/what to search for the threads you're referring to.

I don't usually step outside the mafia and debates subforums so the larger part of DM is kind of a mystery land to me.

Which is exactly why the quotes provided and his attitude towards RJ is rather telling(as well as the publication dates). There certainly was no "trying to pay homage" involved.

Really? I didn't find them telling at all. Goodkind claims to have never read Wheel of Time and RJ may or may not think that Goodkind is a liar.

You can draw your own conclusions but the answer is not definitive one way or another.

 

Look here is the point.  While many fantasies stories share universal myths and archetypes, SOT uses a number of quite specific items taken from the WoT that are not a dime a dozen in fantasy. It is the sheer number of those type of similarities, that causes people to quite rightly call foul.

 

I really can't think of one similarity between the two that couldn't be found in another series.

 

 

 Think Goodkind inspires such rage because of who he is as a person and the content of his series(which is verly poorly written as well).

Yeah, that's fine. I get that. I don't really care if people don't like him or if you think his series is poorly written or any of that.

I just don't see the "rip off" claim as a valid argument. Anything Goodkind "ripped off" can be found elsewhere in fantasy. RJ doesn't own the concept of wizards and dark lords and all that you know?

 

And anyway if there was a "rip off" of anyone it is quite clearly a rip off of Rand more so than Jordan.

Jordan was putting a new spin on fantasy and Sword of Truth never did that. What it did is poorly rehash Rands ideals and used them to beat against strawmen as Luckers said earlier in the thread.

Kind of ridiculous how many common fantasy tropes are being used as "proof" that Goodkind was stealing ideas from Jordan.

 

You don't like Goodkind as a person or you don't like his books that's cool and all but please don't accuse him of stealing.

Even if he did take ideas from Wheel of Time (something I doubt) there is still a line between outright plagiarism and being inspired by someone else and trying to pay homage to their work.

Nope.

 

Talk about the radio having hooks...

 

Not as much as you might think

 

Dunno what you mean

 

:( Poor Enya...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUAtQt9lBlc

Ok what about Enya?