@Durinax that rumor didn't have to be a DF work and most likely wasn't IMO. why do you think it is? there are plenty of wrong rumors flying about. the rumor that Rand destroyed half the palace in Cairhien and killed a lot of people there is explicitly shown to be generated and spread by the servants in the palace.

Also, I don't quite understand what you mean by DF plots not explicitly shown on screen. something that we only suspect is a work of DFs? The dealings of Masuri and Annoura with Masema are beyond suspicious IMO. One of them is highly likely to be Black (I think luckers has a theory on that).

I have a feeling though that this plot arc was entirely dropped by BS and we may never find out.

This has probably been discussed before but while recently rereading the scene of the fight between Ishy and Rand at the end of tEoTW I realized that I never figured out what exactly was the nature of the figure of Kari Al'Thor that makes a brief appearance there. I've assumed before that it is simply a TAR creation like all the other things Ishy conjures up in that scene. But then why does she react positively to Rand killing her?

Rand’s scream echoed hers. The void boiled in his mind. His sword was in his hand. Not the heron-mark blade, but a blade of light, a blade of the Light. Even as he raised it, a fiery white bolt shot from the point, as if the blade itself had reached out. It touched the nearest Fade, and blinding candescence filled the chamber, shining through the Halfmen like a candle through paper, burning through them, blinding his eyes to the scene.

From the midst of the brilliance, he heard a whisper. “Thank you, my son. The Light. The blessed Light.”

--tEoTW, ch 51

RJ answered that in an interview

Thomas Howard

 

What does Maisia mean? In case you don't remember, Sammael called Graendal this when they were messing with the Shaido.

Robert Jordan

 

Mr. Jordan stated that it was a name for pets in the Age of Legends, "like Fido or Fluffy".

 

As far as I know, the only thing AS have done to Rand that she believes she has any need to apologize for is his captivity in LOC and that inherited from Elaida, not of her own doing.

that's a good point. so I guess we have to believe that the Aes Sedai that brought Bode and the other Two Rivers girls to Salidar didn't tell her. this sounds like a plot error although one can try to argue that they told the Hall (they were sent by the Hall after all) and the Hall kept it from Egwene as they were not on the best of terms at the time.

BTW, Nynaeve definitely knows about Alanna as of TOM, Ch 12 but likely much earlier. She should have told Egwene later when she told her of her time with Rand (TOM, ch 33) but perhaps she didn't.

Egwene only got one message from Merana (LoC, ch 9). It mentioned that "Alanna has formed an attachment to the wool merchant which may prove useful" but Egwene didn't understand what she was talking about. They didn't send any messages after they were taken by Rand so I don't believe any word from them came to Egwene. Also, when Egwene thinks that Elayne bonded Rand (TOM, ch 14) she doesn't remark on anything strange about it. If she knew that Alanna bonded Rand too she should have.

Bode and the others made it to Salidar. That means their guardians did as well. I very much doubt that they've kept what they know to themselves.

that's a good point. It's strange though that nobody in Salidar ever mentions that fact and Egwene never once thinks of it even when she thinks that Elayne must have bonded Rand. of course that scene was written by BS and this is the kind of detail that was very easy to overlook.

Demira Eriff and the other Salidar Embassy Aes Sedai escorted the Two Rivers girls back to Salidar and should have brought with them word of Alanna's Forced Bonding. I found it annoying that with Ewgene, Lelaine, Suian and the rest of the Hall's hand wringing over Rand's sworn Aes Sedai, the bonding of Ashaman, and later the BT bonded Aes Sedai that the issue would have come up some way or another, at least with childhood friend Egwene, either in RJs books or Brandons version.

 

Perhaps Demira and the rest kept quiet, either because they didnt want it let known that their acceptance of Alanna among them almost certainly compromised Rand's attitude towards them and contributed to the failure of their embassy, or they are still following that antiquated custom of 'not interfering in another Aes Sedai's business, especially their warder' (which conflicts the stories about Warders bonded too early, and the criminal aspect of the bond).

 

I suppose another possibility is that given the number of threads that RJ was juggling, this one was dropped or he felt it wasnt important ( I hope not)

Actually, we don't know exactly who made it to Salidar with Bode. Kiruna sent 4 Aeas Sedai back to Salidar: Berenicia, Demira, Kairen and Valinde (LOC, ch 49). But only two made it there (tPOD, ch 30) and they are not named. One of them must have been Kairen because she is mentioned several times as being present in salidar in CoT before Aran'gar kills her but who the other is is not clear. It's also not clear what happened to the other two. It might be that RJ just messed it up there. As you say he juggled a lot of people.

In any case it's possible but very unlikely that Kairen and the other one didn't tell anybody in Salidar about Alanna. Egwene would have questioned them and she should have asked to explain Merana's letter.

does the dark side know that Alanna bonded Rand (assuming Alanna is not Black herself)? Elza knew (WH, Ch 25) but she was killed very quickly after SH contacted her. Anybody else?

 

All the Aes sedai in Caemlyn knew, so I imagine word got back to the Salidar AS, at least, and some of them were BA. I would guess it is general knowledge among AS.

 

Egwene only got one message from Merana (LoC, ch 9). It mentioned that "Alanna has formed an attachment to the wool merchant which may prove useful" but Egwene didn't understand what she was talking about. They didn't send any messages after they were taken by Rand so I don't believe any word from them came to Egwene. Also, when Egwene thinks that Elayne bonded Rand (TOM, ch 14) she doesn't remark on anything strange about it. If she knew that Alanna bonded Rand too she should have.

about DF ta'veren RJ said the following in an interview

 

It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta'veren, but it seems unlikely. Ta'veren are part of the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta'veren are created. I can't really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta'veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern.

This makes it clear that there are no DF ta'veren running around.

does the dark side know that Alanna bonded Rand (assuming Alanna is not Black herself)? Elza knew (WH, Ch 25) but she was killed very quickly after SH contacted her. Anybody else?

souls killed in TAR are really destroyed. this is confirmed in the books by Hopper and also in the interviews by BS.

blindillusion

 

Is there any way for someone to be removed completely from the Pattern?

Brandon Sanderson

 

(Sorry I cannot put out his precise words, but here is the gist)—Jordan started by having balefire do this, but he later debunked this theory by saying someone killed by balefire can be reborn at some point. We currently know of nothing/no method that will completely remove someone from the Pattern.

blindillusion

 

I thanked him and turned to walk away at this point, so that he could continue with the signing. But he called me back and commented that:

Brandon Sanderson

 

The wolves in the Wolf Dream. We know that in the Wolf Dream something can be completely removed from the Pattern.

good point although neither Perrin himself nor Egwene are close invincible in TAR.

In general, it's clear (especially from his interviews) that BS kept inventing stuff about TAR entirely on his own, without fully checking it against the previously established rules. At this point TAR rules are pretty much broken and I gave up looking for consistency there. Yours is but one example of that.

Well, Birgitte made it sound like when they're called by the Horn they're not there 'in the flesh', and the One Power can't touch them. I assume that normal weapons cannot harm them either. She was able to ride a horse on water and shoot an arrow that set a whole Seanchan ship on fire, so she certainly isn't following the normal rules of reality, almost like a reverse T'A'R.

 

If they can be harmed, it would have to be something different. Maybe destroying the Horn, or the Dark One breaking free, or the True Power, or balefire could harm them.

That's what I figured too although I don't think that TP can touch them given that the OP can not. Also balefire is OP so it should not be able to touch them. Most likely this whole issue won't be explored since otherwise the Light side will have a small army of uber soldiers in god mode at the LB. This leads me to believe that tHoH will only play a perfunctory role in the LB and also makes the possibility of Rand dying and coming back to win the LB as a HoH very unlikely.

I very much doubt they can be killed, they are essentially souls waiting for the Wheel to spin them out, and souls cannot be destroyed. I believe that's the case in TAR as well as when they are called by the Horn.

Souls can be destroyed in TAR as Hopper explained to Perrin. It's what's happened to Hopper himslef when he died. Birgitte also explained to Nyn in the same scene I quoted that while in TAR tHoH are as vulnerable as anybody.

As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh. That is why the Power could not touch us. Here, all is part of the dream, and the One Power could destroy me as easily as you. More easily. I told you; I am an archer, a sometime soldier, no more.

--TSR, CH 52”

sorry, I didn't mean to snap. I just didn't want the question to veer off in another direction as happened in the other thread.

 

We've not seen any way that they can be harmed, but when you consider that they dwell in T'A'R' and can be harmed there (i.e. Moghedian > Birgitte, TAR wolves dying etc.). I think a more appropriate question is whether the shadow understands that the heroes must be found and killed in T'A'R'.

we know they can be harmed in TAR. that's not my question. what I want to know if they can be harmed in any way when they are called by the Horn.

I asked this in another thread but it got buried there so want to have another go at it.

Can the Heroes of the Horn be killed or harmed in any way when they are called by the Horn?

They can while they wait in TAR but a comment by Birgitte suggests that they might be invincible when called by the Horn.

As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh. That is why the Power could not touch us.

--TSR, CH52

It would be beyond strange if they were in some kind of god mode when called by the Horn, yet that's what Birgitte's comment seems to imply.

I suspect this is not really addressed in the books but perhaps I'm missing something.

hey, why not? I recall somebody posting a theory recently that Demandred is posing as a woman. And Arnie in Junior is a literary character parallel.

I really think we should tell BS that we finally cracked Demandred's identity.

that's certainly a possible explanation. still, it might be a clue to his location as it might indicate local fashions at his base whatever the current season there at the time.

In Demandred's first PoV, he reaches Shayol Ghul wearing a fur-lined cloak at a time when all of Randland is suffering from an extended summer. Demandred has mastered the trick of ignoring the effect of the heat and cold. He isn't affected by the cold outside the Pit of Doom or the heat inside. So, the cloak seems to be part of his disguise. The question is: Where has this been discussed earlier? Thanks!

That's an interesting point. I had a thread a while back discussing Demandred's clothing as a possible clue to his location but his clothing in this particular POV was not discussed there. I can't really think of any place in Randlands he'd need a fur-lined cloak at that time. It could have been a fashion statement as he was apparently prone to those. The only other fur cloaks mentioned around that time are those worn by the Seanchan that Avi and Rand encounter on the other side of her gateway.

Lastly, I think the only person other than Demandred ever described as wearing a velvet fur-lined cloak is Elayne (tEoTW, ch 40).

sorry, I don't think I know what you mean here.

That's because I was remembering wrong. It's Boann and The Dagda, and she makes fairly comprehensive summaries here and here.

Thanks, this is quite interesting. this might indeed be relevant. I still would like to know how something like stopping or slowing time can be achieved.

I think we did discuss it a bit. In that context, Terez's suggestion about the Bohda or whatnot (I'm on my Android right now, can't check for particulars) is interesting.

sorry, I don't think I know what you mean here.

After all, what's the point of Elayne's pregnancy if we don't see her carry it to term?

oh, come on, there are plenty of reasons to do that, especially if Rand dies/disappears for good in the end. plus there were originally outriggers planned.

Time flow differently in Finnland as well. So that's another factor.

Or Brandon may simply be referring to the fact that he's still trying to synchronise different timelines (Black Tower/ Avi, Rand, Lan, etc) in AMol.

I doubt that BS would refer to Finnland as a part of this world. Also, I'm quite sure it's not a matter of different timelines (like the Black Tower one) catching up with each other. BS wouldn't be that cryptic if that's all it was. He talked about those things quote openly on a number of occasions.

I'm curious if BS has mentioned at all how much time aMoL actually covers.

He did, and it was a very interesting answer to boot. He said it depends on where you are, whatever that means. I can't find it, for some reason.

 

EDIT: found it

http://www.google.co...wSrDwR5OA9KiGiA

woa, I totally unaware of this quote! has this been discussed on the forum? what are the theories on the subject? Are we talking about time travel? or is it something like time flowing differently in different parts of the world? This can happen in TAR and there seems to be some merging of TAR and the real world near Shayol Ghul.

Would that possibly have to do with the "day that dawns twice"

yes, that's the natural guess.

I was wondering: We know that TP can destroy cuendillar and that there is one other way. (And I'm aware this must have already been discussed...somewhere. But I can't find that thread, so I can't check if my theory is old for you, for me it's new).

 

The only other way I can think of is to take some object of cuendillar into TAR while going there in the flesh, hand it to Perrin³⁰⁰⁰ and ask him to unmake this.

 

What other theories are there?

I like the idea of using TAR to do it but I suspect it's something else.

I asked BS at a recent signing if it's possible to figure out the second method to destroy cuendillar based on what we know and he said no.

This tells me that it's something really new which should rule out trying to do it the way Perrin destroyed the dreamspike or anything similar.

I don't understand the connection. How does this relate to the viewing that Min had? It was about a man other than Thom juggling fire and the White Tower.

 

The man juggling fire represents men who can channel. Post-Taint, there will need to be a balance of power developed. This vision perfectly describes such a thing--Thom, the Grey Fox, working on behalf of men who juggle fire [men who are not himself] to ensure they have a place in the world--and any such act would intrinsically involve him dealing with the White Tower, and developing a balance of power with them.

 

So in short. Man Juggling Fire = Men Who Can Channel. Tower = White Towers opposition. This Being About Thom, But Thom Being Neither Of These Things = Thom being a mediator who stands between the two groups. He has the motivation--he failed Oweyn--and the skill. Through Moiraine he has the intelligence on the Tower, and she has shown her willingness to right wrongs done by the Tower towards men who can channel.

 

 

Also, Thom wants revenge on the Aes Sedai who gentled his nephew. He might get that although I highly doubt this will be addressed in aMoL with so much other stuff which needs to be taken care of. In any case, that's quite different from organizing male channelers. I don't see why his services would be in any way required there. Rand already took care of this. Taim and his cronies would have to be cleared out of BT of course but I don't see Thom and his Game of the Houses skills playing any role in that.

 

I think ultimately Thom will take the higher path--Moiraine's entire purpose in that meeting was to prove to him that Aes Sedai can be better than that. He will answer his debt to his nephew not by taking revenge, but by helping others like him. Moiraine will provide the other side, by helping him make Aes Sedai be better than what they were.

 

 

ok, got you. Thanks for the explanation. It's an interesting idea. Somehow I don't think that's it as I have a feeling that the man jugging fire in that vision represents a real person and is not a metaphor for male channelrs. But you could be right, we'll see.

herid, it's simple. Owyn made Thom unable to resist helping a channeling man deal with AS. All Ashaman are now in need, because having their own place doesn't make AS regard them as equals (like it was in the AoL). If, on the way, Thom can take revenge on those Reds (who are bound to be vocal critics of any normalization agreement with the Ashaman), all the better.

how does any of this relate to the vision Min had? She saw a man (not Thom) juggling fire and the White Tower. What is this supposed to represent? I fail to see any connection between this vision and Thom getting revenge on the reds who gentled Owyn or him helping the Asha'man.

Apologies if this has already been asked.

 

Doing my first reread and they just reached Baerlon. Min says her viewing on "the gleeman" is a man, not him, who juggles fire and the white tower. I could make sense out of everyone else except this. What are these for Thom?

 

My theory is this refers to a role Thom will play in sorting out a place in the world for men who can channel--he has the motivation, his debt to his nephew. And with his skills in the Game of Houses he'd be perfect for this.

I don't understand the connection. How does this relate to the viewing that Min had? It was about a man other than Thom juggling fire and the White Tower.

Also, Thom wants revenge on the Aes Sedai who gentled his nephew. He might get that although I highly doubt this will be addressed in aMoL with so much other stuff which needs to be taken care of. In any case, that's quite different from organizing male channelers. I don't see why his services would be in any way required there. Rand already took care of this. Taim and his cronies would have to be cleared out of BT of course but I don't see Thom and his Game of the Houses skills playing any role in that.

Especially of the black tower in andor gets destroyed and elaidas palace becomes the new black tower.

Now, that's a cool idea. This might very well happen. The WT and BT really ought to unify post TG as the Aes Sedai were in AoL and I found it strange that they didn't in Avi's visions especially considering RJs statements that the idea of men and women working together is on of the main themes of the series.

 

wasnt it stated somewhere that the TP takes the rough shape of the OP when weaving it, so to a woman it would react like saidar, and to a man it would react like saidin

BS sort of confirmed this in interviews.

Matt: Ok. So, obviously a channeler uses the True Power. We’ve discussed this before: they weave the True Power just as they weave the One Power . . .

Brandon: They do, and you don’t have to learn, and so that should tell you that the weaves are similar if not identical to the One Power. There are certain things the True Power can do that are different and it goes about things in different ways, but you don’t have to relearn everything.

But I don't recall that being explicitly mentioned in such way in the books. it's implicitly implied though. Rand knew how to use TP right away for example.

Graendal suggests the same in ToM prologue

Graendal wove a ribbon of Air. Working with the True Power was similar, yet not identical, to working with the One Power. A weave of the True Power would often function in a slightly different way, or have an unanticipated side effect. And there were some weaves that could only be crafted by the True Power.

 

Speaking of which - does Thom feels guilty for killing Moiraine's brother Taringail?

 

Doubtful, it was either kill him or allow him to kill Morgase.

yes, I don't see why he should feel guilty about that one. and Moiraine didn't seem to hold it against him either. What's interesting is how she knew that it was him who did it.

 

=/ When did this happen and how did I miss it. Or maybe I´ve simply forgotten it... But Thom killed Taringail?

Moiraine implies that Thom did it and Thom's reaction strongly suggests that she is right about it. The details are unknown so what exactly happened is unclear. The "official" line was that Taringail died in a hunting accident (FoH, Ch 19).

Her smile was just short of laughter, but she spoke as if reading from a page. “Thomdril Merrilin. Called the Gray Fox, once, by some who knew him, or knew of him. Court-bard at the Royal Palace of Andor in Caemlyn. Morgase’s lover for a time, after Taringail died. Fortunate for Morgase, Taringail’s death. I do not suppose she ever learned he meant her to die and himself to be Andor’s first king. But we were speaking of Thom Merrilin, a man who, it was said, could play the Game of Houses in his sleep. It is a shame that such a man calls himself a simple gleeman. But such arrogance to keep the same name.”

 

Thom masked his shock with an effort. How much did she know? Too much if she knew not another word.

-TSR, Ch 17