Its war. Things dont make sense, things arent fair, people dont live because they have so much ahead of them. One of the main characters had to die for that final battle to have any real impact, and Egwene was the best candidate.

barid, the issue here is you dont build up a character so much give them so much achievements only to die off in the end. Rand the male half of egwene himself made it out alive Then you have no funerals for her. Just a glancing remark by nynaeve of egwene's death and perrin tearing up. reeks of last minute dot come death.

Why not? I can name about ten other fantasy series where characters are built up and then just killed off, and thats just off the top of my head. I dont understand the problem, I really dont. Its not like she died a pointless death; she essentially created an entirely new weave that wasnt thought to exist, and killed Taim and who knows how many other channelers.

In universe, I have to wonder a bit at the decision to make Cadsuane Amyrlin, since she shouldn't live very much longer... I suppose she could force most of the Aes Sedai to cooperate in her time, though.  I imagine she'll mostly stick with Egwene's changes, and her role in history will be that of a transistory leader, one that keeps them afloat and enforces new policies.  I don't know how diplomatic relations between her and Logain will go though.  Didn't she have a hand in capturing him?  That's not going to be pretty.

She gets along with the Aiel, the Sea Folk, and the Asha`man. She is easily the most open minded Aes Sedai around, who values talent, loyalty and leadership over strength in the One Power. Egwene would never ever have agreed to any sort of alliance with the Seanchan while Tuon still held onto damane, her thoughts with Tuon in their last encounter prove that. Cadsuane however is open minded enough to create some sort of... agreement. She is loyal to the Whitetower, but also understands its weaknesses. I could see her convincing everyone else to give up the oath rod, something Egwene became steadfast against.

Once Cadsuane dies, I could see maybe Pevera becoming Amyrlin.

Not to mention, Cadsuane taking over makes perfect sense, from an ironic and a future-build point of view.

 

 

 

duskfire, would u say egwene's death was a violent one? would u say gawyn caused her death when it is plainly obvious it was the balefire mayhem from taim? we got no viewinga from min on eggy's death and possibilities of her death didnt match her battlefield death at all. Egwene's death to me looked like it was a sanderson/harriet planned death rather than RJ

 

That's not possible, since the entire epilogue was written by Robert Jordan, and Egwene's death is clearly mentioned in that.

RJ also tried to downplay callandors important defect by claiming it was a manufacturing flaw.

 

authors tell fibs. RJ may have wrote the epilogue but insertions and additions can be done

Well, I would say Callandor being able to channel the TP is a pretty massive flaw. Jordan never lied, he just held back the truth. Which is sort of his job. If he had said, "Oh yeah, Callandor has this massive flaw where you can channel the TP through it and whatnot," he would have been given away a massively important detail of the last book. Omitting is not lying.

duskfire, would u say egwene's death was a violent one? would u say gawyn caused her death when it is plainly obvious it was the balefire mayhem from taim? we got no viewinga from min on eggy's death and possibilities of her death didnt match her battlefield death at all. Egwene's death to me looked like it was a sanderson/harriet planned death rather than RJ

I did point out that I wasnt neccessarily saying that those viewings were tied to that specific death, but rather to argue that there was foreshadowing for her death. You claimed there wasn't any at all, when there clearly is. Not to mention, Gawyns death clearly led to hers. After that, she was completely and utterly reckless, when if her husband and warder had still been alive, I doubt she would have been nearly as much.

Besides, I am not sure why its such a bad thing to have a surprise death. Happens all the time in other fantasy series. Not everything needs to be neat. Not everything needs to fit. Someone in theory had to die, and we knew Elayne and Mat were most likely safe. Perrin would have been too important after TG to kill off. Therefore, that left Egwene.

She should have gotten her own funeral, maybe even alongside Rand (I understand she didnt really have a physical body anymore, but at the very least, a mention.) Rands death seemed to have completely glossed over hers.

egwene's death has not even been foreshadowed once.

 

There's nothing.

 

Either RJ planned a suprise major character death or brandon killed her off. Nothing could explain the bulding up of character and achievements of egwene.

 

Even the male rival counterpart rand survived!

Eh?

Gawyn kneeling at Egwenes feet with his head bowed, and Gawyn breaking Egwene neck, first one then the other, as if either could be the future. She had never seen that fluttering back and forth, as though not even the viewing could tell which would be the true future. Worse, she had a feeling near to certainty that it was what she had done this day that had turned Gawyn toward those two possibilities. (Min Viewing)

Her mom weeping (Egwene dream)

In another he began swinging a door closed on her, and she knew if that narrowing gap of light vanished, she was dead. (Egwene Dream)

Not to mention, she has been compared to a couple of historical Aes Sedai, one of them being Rashima Kerenmosa, who died during the Trolloc Wars in a similar heroic manner.

So those above dreams and viewings may not have references what happened to her directly, but it definetly shows that she had alot of foreshadowing concerning her death. Out of the main characters, I considered her death the most likely and while saddened when it happened, was not overly surprised. Her going out in a blaze of glory fighting a member of the Forsaken fits her character pretty well.

Anyone find it weird that Perrin missed out on basically the whole big battle, and his power wrought hammer did little except kill a bunch of darkhounds at the very end? He should have been up on the Heights side by side with Mat, destroying waves of Trollocs like in ToM. Instead, we got some weird thing where he was too fatigued and injured to be healed properly. bah :P

One thing I'm very interested to hear from others: was it thematically appropriate for Egwene to die, in your opinion?  Will relations with the Seanchan and Black Tower suffer without her?  Looking back on the series (this I cannot do, as this is my first read of the Wheel of Time), does it feel "right" that Egwene is only one of the six (arguably) main characters to die?  As I said, I'm completely split on it.  It worked wonderfully in the sense that it was a shock; by the time Egwene died, I was convinced that Rand was going to do something that would bring back all those who died in the Last Battle, because RJ had been so reluctant to kill characters up to that point.

The Final Battle needed Egwene, and she was also needed to repair the Whitetower and get everyone to where they were needed. However I think in the peace time afterwards, Cadsuane will be better at the role. The Whitetower needs to change and adept, starting with the oath rod, but also changing how strength determines leadership for the most part. Cadsuane also has a much better relationship with the Asha`man, is on friendly terms with the Wise Ones (although so was Egwene) and would probably be alot less angry when dealing with the Seanchan.

When Egwene last saw Tuon, she thought something along the lines of, "I am not done with you." Despite her new Warder, Egwene was never going to get over the Seanchan. She would have had a hard time coming to terms with any truce they had while the Seanchan still had damane and still had lands. So yeah, out of the main characters, I think her dying was the one that made the most sense in terms of progressing the story.

That is of course all speculation.

Failes awesome. I didnt like her at first, but on my re-reads of the series she has grown on me, much like Cadsuane. I especially liked how she was in ToM. She is maturing along with Perrin and now, they are good together.

I dont understand why sending it after Mat was a wasted resource?

The Gholam had never been harmed before, and was basically the ultimate killing machine as far as anyone was concerned. How was Moridin or whatnot meant to know that Mat would get Elayne to make up a whole bunch of foxhead medallions to go into the final fight?

Ishy also seemed to know about the Seanchan being a future threat. While alot of that may have been manipulated by him, its hard to see him being able to assure it happened in just the manner it did with him being in and out of the bore.

I find myself having very contradictory thoughts on Caddy. Yes, she does *eventually* acknowledge that Nynaeve's not a teen having a tantrum. Ok, she knows lots about life, the universe and everything. Yes, there is a bloody good reason it felt so good when Tam stood up to her. She is in many ways, the epitomy of what's wrong with the AS as a whole. A petty dictator with a bit of power, usually surrounded by people with insufficient backbone to say No to her.

But she also has the best qualities of Aes Sedai as well. For example, her relationship with the Wise Ones, her respect for the Sea Folk and the Asha`man, etc etc. And I am not sure if she is again st people saying no to her as you make her out to be; granted the Aes Sedai under her command do so, but Aes Sedai i general defer to those who are more powerful then them. However, the few times Nynaeve and Min have stood up to her about something decent, cadsuane has acknowledged them.

Elaida is a petty dictator. Cadsuane is far far better then Elaida in basically every regard. Cadsuane may demean Rand in various ways, but she rarely demeans others. She would have been an awesome Amrylin Seat imo.

Before i read this thread i was under the impression that everyone had to _love_ Cadsuane, seeing as i think she's one of the most awesome characters in the series. How can you not love that strict old granny type of person, once she gives a compliment you cant help but be overwhelmed at the immense respect she holds, and even a tiny nod or wink is like all the gold Mat has won at dice so far. Im definetely in the Love-Cadsuane camp, no doubt about it :P

This is Dragonmount; I would say Mat is the only character that is generally mostly liked, and even then I am sure that there are those out there who dont think much of him :P Cadsuane is definetly in the "split down the middle" camp.

All you Cadsuane apologists are forgetting one thing - Rand is the greatest ta'veren ever. The Wheel will give him what he needs to survive to make it to his pre-ordained destiny. Since he would have required an adequate guard force for the Cleanising the Wheel gave him one. Cadsuane didn't "choose" to be there, the Wheel chose her for that task.

You do have some decent arguments, but this is a cop-out. You could put this in for any character ever. Lan is a badass; well, the Pattern made him a badass.

I am also a huge fan of Cadsuane. I like how she is the same as every other Aes Sedai but also completely different. She assembles groups of Aes Sedai based on their merits, not on their strength in the One Power, which is generally against what happens in the Whitetower. She sees the importance in the Wise Ones, the Asha`man and the Sea Folk; groups that 99% of Aes Sedai either disregard, ignore or believe it to be inferior. She has taught Rand the value of keeping his word to allies. And she doesnt think of the Whitetower this, or the Whitetower that like eveyr other Aes Sedai. She has zero alligence to the Whitetower now.

Moraine actually told Egwene that Rand will need someone to stands up to him, who isnt afraid to tell him when he is wrong. Cadsuane may take it over board, but in her mind, its the fate of the world they are dealing with. If Rand isnt able to handle her, how can he handle the weight of the world on his shoulders? Not to mention, she backs him up when it is of importance. The Cleansing is the main thing; no matter how people argue it, that entire defense was Cadsuane. How many other Aes Sedai in the series would use Asha`man, Aes Sedai and damane together, and trust them to do their jobs? A few few small handful. And when Rand mentioned it, she didnt tell him it was a horrible idea. She valued the importance of it and took a chance, and forced him to have her help him.

In the end, people can dislike Cadsuane. Thats cool. But surely even those who dislike her recognise how important she has been to Rand. yeah she may be stubborn, she may be a bully, she may overreact, but at the same time, Rand needs it. I fully believe what happened in TGS with him turning dark would have happene3d without Cadsuane; she was a scapegoat for his anger (and for alot of readers) but he was already hardening massivily by the time she showed up.

Thought so. Any idea why there is no problem in the scene mentioned? Is there a discussion about it elsewhere? I would like to read it.

I was under the impression that Rand gets channeling sickness when Moridin channels, and vice versa. Which is why Moridin didn't participate in the Cleansing. I could be wrong however.

Speaking of Mat's Finnland prophecies, one that's always seemed odd to me is the "dying and living again as part of what was" (forget the exact line) one.

 

Marrying the Daughter of the Nine Moons is a significant event in his life. Giving up half the light of the world will apparently be a significant event in his life. Getting killed and then balefired back to life seems to be pretty irrelevant. It really plays no part in the story at all. It just seems to be totally unrelated to the other two in terms of being relevant enough to include.

 

It was "To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!" The first bit's got two options: when the Foxes hung him from Avendesora and Rand had to CPR him, or, as you've interpreted it, when Rahvin nailed him with lightning and killed him, after which Rand resurrected him via balefire. The second bit refers to the memories ("part of what was") he receives which he then often finds himself suddenly reliving as if he were truly there ("live once more"). The way the two are tied together in one answer suggests that it was actually the hanging incident that fulfilled "To die and live again" and not the balefire deal.

RJ confirmed it was the balefire incident. Mat wasnt dead when he was hung, just very close to it.

I was thinking the same thing the other day Tom; Mat being killed and then coming back via balefire seems to serve no purpose. In fact, he basically did nothing in that fight as far as I can tell. He could have not even gone which was the original plan and nothing would have changed. Even during the Moiraine/Lanfear fight prior to that Mat didn't do anything.

Okay this is great but can someone explain why Moridin was saving Rand at SL in the first place? If the link was created there with the balefire why did the connection between them seem to be there before then. Moridan came to SL to save Rand - we didn't know who he was then and only after found out he was one of the Forsaken. Why did one of the Forsaken go to save Rand unless he knew that if Rand died he would too - I think that the link between them might have already been there?

Moridin/Ishamael has always had a "no kill" order for Rand except on a few brief occasions. Based on when he was playing Sha`rah, he considered it acceptable to make some sacrifises to capture the Fisher. The Fisher King is obviously Rand, and in this case the Shadow wants him alive; either to break him and have him turn, or for other reasons which are unknown [perhaps only Rand can start the final battle, etc etc.) Therefore, Rand living and Sammael dying was an acceptable loss. Not to mention Sammael disobeyed a direct order to not kill Rand (although I suppose he could argue it was self defense.)

Hey I just finished rereading tFoH and something I read was a little surprising that I hadn't noticed. After the Lanfear fight when Aviendha asks what happened? Rand says, "They are both gone. Lanfear is dead. And so is Moraine." Amys responds with, "You are a fool about this, About this and many other things."

 

Does this imply that Amys knows something about what happened to Moraine? Does she say anything about it in the next few books? I really don't remember the wise ones saying anything about possibly knowing more about what happened to Moraine, but has anyone else noticed anything?

Well, its entirely possible that Amys is smart and actually believes that falling through the doorway doesnt automatically make that person dead (basically what alot of readers thought too, myself included.) Or she saw something in her dreams to do with Moiraine. or Lanfear.

how do you guys know all this haha. I always wondered why Lanfear got dumped? Where did you get the info about their wedding as I am really interested to read up on the hostory?

 

 

Alot of the extra stuff is from the Guide as well as various things RJ/BS have said online. The Guide is a bit hard to find now but its an extremely interesting read - at least from what I found. Really fleshes out the world and history.

Also, Lews Therin actually liked Dashiva, so that should give people some idea as to the validity of Lews Therins arguments :P Rand was paranoid of Taim because he was powerful false dragon who obviously harboured some form of resentment toward Rand for his station. However he liked Dashiva. Basically, Lews Therin is just channeling Rands thoughts; has nothing to do with any sort of inside information.

I more got that Rand was temporarily insane from the fact that he was the Dragon Reborn, he had the weight of expectation on his shoulders, and he was being attacked on a constant basis so it made him paranoid and suspicious. More like an intense nervous breakdown. I never attributed it to Saidin at all, as it was far too soon.

Moreover, I don't remember it, but why in the first place did Thom go to Emond's Field? Has it been explicitly written or is this just a hell of a coincidence?

 

The Village Council calls him for Beltine/Winternight.

 

Oh, right... stupid me. So it was just pure chance he was the one to be chosen/to accept.

Just a weaving of the Wheel. Like Rand falling from the wall in Camelyn and meeting Elayne, or running into Loial in the library.