Elayne and Nynaeve's trip from Tanchico to Salidar bores me every time.

+1 - that and Faile's captivity are my two most hated arcs. On re-reads I skim part most of them because otherwise they are just too boring. And the Salidar circus sideshow just felt ridiculous Elyane tight-rope walking, Birgitte shooting arrows etc. It almost felt like RJ was taking the piss or something.

 

another example of male-female friendship: how bout lan and moiraine?

Yeah that is definitely one. Though when I first raised this issue I was intending to say 'no male-female friendships where they aren't sexually involved or in a warder bond type situation' but I forgot to add the last part.

What also irritates me is the lack of male-female friendship. We see no real examples of this which I find both frustrating and irritating.

 

There are precious few friendships in the series, regardless of gender. It's curious, because I think Jordan excels at character development and consistency, but he does a generally poor job with relations between those characters. People fall in love simply because they need to for plot purposes, they treat their so-called friends like garbage (Egwene is the worst offender here), and there are very few instances of people showing genuine concern for each other. It's a rare and startling moment when a character does as little as hug another, as Nynaeve did for Rand in ToM.

Very true. And this hug probably only happened because Jordan didn't write TOM.

That would be my primary issue, but my second is that Jordan let the cast of characters get too big. I anticipate some people will take exception to that, and I agree that some very nice characterizations and moments would have been lost if the cast were cut down, but I think the benefits outweigh it. The major problems with making your cast so large are that you A.) Waste time on unnecessary character interactions and thus bog down the narrative and B.) Lose some of the distinction of your more minor characters.

Totally agree with this also. Also related to this we often unnecessarily get minor characters motivations spelled out to us which often isn't necessary.

The lack of a strong editor. This thing really should have been finished in 8 books.

Agree partly - though I would say more like 10 books with maybe 3 arcs cut right out and superfluous descriptions excised.

 

I could go with that, though we'd likely disagree on which arcs. Personally, I find the books more enjoyable to read when I employ a self-editor.

Yeah I definitely do that on re-reads. As to the arcs I was thinking of Faile's captivity massively reduced, Elayne's gaining of the throne massively reduced and same with the Wonder Girl's Salidar circus sideshow. And reducing unnecessary descriptions throughout all books (although this only really became a problem in later books).

 

The Shaido captivity could have been shorter (don't really want the POV of the captives) and should have been resolved a book or two earlier. For me, the Supergirls should be contracted into 1 lead as a group, instead of 3 seperate lead characters. I'd also cut out the Seanchan altogether. Of course, I'd add a good bit about the Boderlands. I feel cheated that I got to read so little about them. Hell, I wouldn't know that Agelmar was one of the great captains if I didn't look it up online.

Agree with you about the Borderlanders and I also would've liked a lot more on the Black Tower too. The Seanchan add a lot to the series but had they been cut out of it - it would have definitely allowed the series to be much shorter though. Could have basically APoD and greatly reduced book 9-11.

The lack of a strong editor. This thing really should have been finished in 8 books.

Agree partly - though I would say more like 10 books with maybe 3 arcs cut right out and superfluous descriptions excised.

 

I could go with that, though we'd likely disagree on which arcs. Personally, I find the books more enjoyable to read when I employ a self-editor.

Yeah I definitely do that on re-reads. As to the arcs I was thinking of Faile's captivity massively reduced, Elayne's gaining of the throne massively reduced and same with the Wonder Girl's Salidar circus sideshow. And reducing unnecessary descriptions throughout all books (although this only really became a problem in later books).

The lack of a strong editor. This thing really should have been finished in 8 books.

Agree partly - though I would say more like 10 books with maybe 3 arcs cut right out and superfluous descriptions excised.

What also irritates me is the lack of male-female friendship. We see no real examples of this which I find both frustrating and irritating.

 

I would think that Mat/Birgitte certainly counts, though i'm having a hard time coming up with another example

Yeah I was going to mention Mat/Birgitte but the fact that they are the only ones who readily spring to mind is a pretty scathing indictment considering the size of the series. Lately Rand/Nynaeve I think could also qualify as friends but imo this has only come about after Sanderson took over.

What do I dislike most? Well, if I only get one choice, it would have to be the 2000 or so pages spent on the Faile's Shaido captivity. Jordan might have finished the series himself if he hadn't gone down that road. You can argue about whether this plotline was "pointless," but it sure could have been dealt with a LOT faster. A close second and third would be the whole Bowl of Winds and Valan Luca's Circus plotlines.

 

Aside from the plotlines mentioned above, the only other thing that really annoys me is the whole gender issue. As a guy, I find it incredibly annoying and tedious that virtually every woman seems to have absolutely zero respect for men, which in turn leads to some absolutely ridiculous failures to cooperate, share information, etc. I'm not sure if that's what other posters are referring to as "sexism" or not.

Agree with everything said here.

What also irritates me is the lack of male-female friendship. We see no real examples of this which I find both frustrating and irritating.

A smaller peeve is the repetitiveness of descriptions/actions 'sniffed', 'smoothed skirts' etc. Also related to this is the need in later books to describe what has happened in earlier books. As I understood it the later books were never meant to be read as stand-alone books yet we still get the fill-in of what has happened as if there were meant to.

In both cases, the deaths themselves would likely be manslaughter

 

I disagree regarding the first. Though of course it all depends on which country's legal system you wish to use. As I understand it in my own country you a murder cannot be downgraded to manslaughter through self-defence. Either you are guilty of murder or not-guilty due to the fact that you were defending yourself or family from a real and present danger. In the first case I don't think Perrin could plead self-defence as eve after he killed a Whitecloak they still didn't kill him. The threat he was under would be a mitigating factor in the sentence of the murder not enough to downgrade the charge itself.

 

However, he could have an interesting angle to play in the self-defence. He could argue that Hopper was family to him in which case his actions were in self-defence. Still I don't think many legal systems would accept that a wolf will qualify for self defence. Because even though people consider their dogs and cats etc to be part of their family, killing someone who killed your cat/dog would not be sanctioned under self-defence law.

 

 

Yeah I actually wouldn't have gone with a self-defense angle at all.

 

More so it's the provocation via Hopper's death that sells it as manslaughter, in the States, for me. You could probably work in a diminished capacity angle for an altered mental state, as Perrin did apparently go fairly bonkers, and could be said to have been out of his mind, when he axed the two dudes in white.

 

When Hopper was killed, it provoked Perrin, who went coo-coo, killing the victims while in that altered mental state. Intent is definitely there though, thus the lean towards voluntary, rather than involuntary manslaughter. Perrin was provoked, intended to do harm, and was looney toons at the time the act of killing occurred.

 

Like you said though it has a whole lot to do with what legal system you're under.

It's actually quite interesting because here in New Zealand the law has just been changed so that provocation can no longer be used to turn a murder charge into a manslaughter one (ie. someone gets charged with murder but the jury finds them guilty of manslaughter due to provocation), now provocation is seen only as a mitigating factor in sentencing. So even if the provocation is extreme you will still be found guilty of murder just the provocation will mitigate the sentence. But compared to the US, NZ law works a lot more on that basis eg. we have no degrees of murder just a list of mitigating factors affecting sentencing. Manslaughter exists but generally for cases where the killing was unintentional (eg. unfenced pool, dangerous/drunk driving causing death, punch to head causing fatal blood clot etc) or where the person was unaware of what they were doing (ie. through insanity).

In both cases, the deaths themselves would likely be manslaughter

I disagree regarding the first. Though of course it all depends on which country's legal system you wish to use. As I understand it in my own country you a murder cannot be downgraded to manslaughter through self-defence. Either you are guilty of murder or not-guilty due to the fact that you were defending yourself or family from a real and present danger. In the first case I don't think Perrin could plead self-defence as eve after he killed a Whitecloak they still didn't kill him. The threat he was under would be a mitigating factor in the sentence of the murder not enough to downgrade the charge itself.

However, he could have an interesting angle to play in the self-defence. He could argue that Hopper was family to him in which case his actions were in self-defence. Still I don't think many legal systems would accept that a wolf will qualify for self defence. Because even though people consider their dogs and cats etc to be part of their family, killing someone who killed your cat/dog would not be sanctioned under self-defence law.

However, he would be guilty of freeing a prisoner. And if it was a war situation (which this wasn't) then freeing a prisoner can be seen as treason.

 

He was not however in Andoran not Whitecloack land. And besides that neither of Andorans or Whitecloacks captured Gaul in the first place, that honour belongs to a pumped up Hunter who attacked an innocent man and captured him for no reason.

Very true. Whose land was he in though (my memory fails me)? Because that land may have the law that the local mayor/lord has the power to imprison people in which case Perrin was still committing a crime (a perfectly valid crime imo - many great deeds have been technically crimes.

How about those Whitecloacks Perrin killed when he freed Gaul? I am wondering how Galad would've taken it if they knew about that. That's more of a self-defence case, since Perrin was attacked first, but he was also caught freeing a prisoner and armed.

Yeah I think that one would definitely have qualified for self-defence. However, he would be guilty of freeing a prisoner. And if it was a war situation (which this wasn't) then freeing a prisoner can be seen as treason.

I think it was definitely murder. But it was murder 'in the heat of the moment' rather than a cold, pre-meditated murder. In New Zealand we don't have degrees of murder but if the murder was committed in this manner this is seen as a mitigating circumstance and usually reduces the sentence.

He could also have argued that he genuinely felt his life was in danger in which case he could claim self-defence. But I don't think this is really a valid argument as had he dropped his axe and raised his hands they weren't going to kill him.

Why does Messana order the Black Ajah to reveal themselves by stealing the ter'angreal stash AND flee to Tear? It doesn't make alot of sense.

 

Is that to both capture/kill the super girls and disrupt Be'lal's plans to get Callandor?

 

From Rahvin's perspective, he's happy to see the girls get in Be'lal's way, but wants them dead too. And via Perrin's dreams, while Black Ajah is laughing that the super girls are captured, Lanfear is laughing at them.

 

The only thing I can get out of the whole exchange is that the reader gets an insight into how all the Forsaken fight, plot, interfere as much with each other as they do the light.

Well I don't have the answer but I will share my thoughts until someone who really knows can come along and answer it for you.

I thought that it was a plot cooked up between Mesaana and Be'lal to get the girls to Tear where they would capture them (as they did) and use this to get Rand to come to the stone so that Be'lal could grab Callandor off him. Because they didn't know that Rand would go straight to Tear anyway.

Also some of the Black Ajah had to get out of the tower after Falme as once the girls returned they would inform Siuan about Liandrin being Black Ajah so Liandrin would have to flee anyway so she might as well take others with her and grab as much ter'angreal as they can (remember they also tried to break into the room which housed the angreal).

Note this is just my conjecture hopefully someone else has something more solid which could well prove me wrong.

There are also several reference in World of Warcraft. Saldaen Farm as one example off the top of my head.

I am personally tempted to go out and get an extra copy of TGS and ToM, tear them appart and put them back together in chronological order.

 

Just so you know, Brandon did that on purpose so that many of the awesome scenes in TGS wouldn't be pushed back into ToM, leaving TGS with some Egwene in the tower, Perrin not making much progress, entirely Dark Rand, etc. It might have been another CoT, which a new author would be hard pressed to deal with. He wanted to 'hit it out of the park' with TGS (and after reading ToM it completely makes sense) so he included a great deal of the best scenes at the end of TGS out of sequence with a few others timeline-wise.

 

I know, and up until I started ToM I supported this decision, but now I would like a chronological copy of the books.

Same - I perfectly understand the reasoning and I believe it was the correct decision. But I too would like a chronological copy of the books. I think I will end up buying all three of the books that were going to make up AMoL as E-Books and then combine them into one chronologically linear book. Because in the final book I think we will be jumping back in time again to bring the Black Tower thread up to speed. I think these timeline issues were why RJ said he couldn't see any practical way to split the final book. Still I understand and support the splitting but will be good to make my own master book at the end.

She didn't come because she didn't want to.

Surely there had to be more to it than that? She must have known that there would be grave consequences for not going. If she was afraid she could have gone and stayed out of danger much as I seem to recall Moghedien doing.

I assumed it was because 1) she hadn't accepted the Nae'blis thing yet and thought she could get away with it, and 2) she hadn't yet been properly introduced to Shaidar Haran at all, aside from her trip to Shayol Ghul where he didn't even speak to her or acknowledge her presence in any way. That visit is probably what led her to believe that she could go her own way.

Thanks - that explains it more clearly. Was more helpful than the first answer even though the first answer was basically correct. But thanks to both of you for answering my question. What would have been a nice scene is a pov of where she chooses not to go to the cleansing. Surely it could have been fitted somewhere into cot </threadmerge>.

She didn't come because she didn't want to.

Surely there had to be more to it than that? She must have known that there would be grave consequences for not going. If she was afraid she could have gone and stayed out of danger much as I seem to recall Moghedien doing.

What I have wondered is why didn't Mesaana show up at the cleansing? Surely being Danelle hiding in the basements of the white tower she could have easily attended without her absence being noted. Apologies if this has been explained somewhere where I should have seen it. Just don't remember reading in the books at all why she failed to attend just that her failure earned her punishment.

What I have wondered about is how in EotW Moraine repeatedly mentions how the source offers protection. And how fades/trollocs etc don't like coming near people who can channel. It was implied this was in a way not relating to the danger of channeling but more that their was something in the source itself that acted like a shadow repellent.

 

However, in future books we see nor hear any more about this. Did I mis-understand this when I read it or did this natural protection provided by the source simply disappear from later books?

 

Now I am unsure on this, so dont quote me, but there is likely 3 reasons.

 

1. An oddity of EotW, there are alot of things said in the first book that are different from the others. Especially in regards to channeling. This is one of those things that got sorta left out or suchlike.

 

2. Moiraine isnt always right. She may think so, but the truth is, at this point, they really dont have much experience with Shadowspawn. the blight has been relatively quiet. Later on, more is known about trollocs so opinions will change etc..

 

3. She is right, but not in the way that is thought. She says that the Power is both a strength and leaves the person Vunerable to the DO. SHe could have just meant that trollocs will pick easy fights, slaughtering villagers, rather than attack someone who can throw a fireball at your face.

Thanks, that was kind of what I was thinking but you have stated it nicely and clearly (but don't worry I won't hold you to it:)). I think it could well be any of the three or even more likely a combination of all three.

What I have wondered about is how in EotW Moraine repeatedly mentions how the source offers protection. And how fades/trollocs etc don't like coming near people who can channel. It was implied this was in a way not relating to the danger of channeling but more that their was something in the source itself that acted like a shadow repellent.

However, in future books we see nor hear any more about this. Did I mis-understand this when I read it or did this natural protection provided by the source simply disappear from later books?

Sorilea in TPoD,Ch12.

 

Doing a re-read and noticed this in WH Ch. 25 Bonds Min says "You listen to me Rand al'Thor. I won't let you die. And if you manage it just to spite me, I'll follow you and bring you back."

 

Could this be fore-shadowing of how Rand will die and yet live again? I guess this quote has been covered elsewhere and if so sorry for bringing it up but just found it so interesting when I read it that I wanted to know others' thoughts on it.

Yes. It's one of the foreshadowings I noted in my theory on the subject (which is an old theory, but this is part of the evidence I gathered for it).

Thanks for that. Hadn't seen that document before. I definitely would subscribe to 4.4 (Rand will die and be resurrected through the same process as Moghedien did to Birgitte).

Doing a re-read and noticed this in WH Ch. 25 Bonds Min says "You listen to me Rand al'Thor. I won't let you die. And if you manage it just to spite me, I'll follow you and bring you back."

Could this be fore-shadowing of how Rand will die and yet live again? I guess this quote has been covered elsewhere and if so sorry for bringing it up but just found it so interesting when I read it that I wanted to know others' thoughts on it.

"lacquered"