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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

icspots

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Posts posted by icspots

  1. On 5/15/2021 at 8:01 PM, Lucie said:

     

    Wow thank you! 

    Btw, when I read the first three volumes of WoT I think modern Aes Sedai are really powerful. But facing the Forsakens and compared to ancient Aes Sedai, they are so powerless, so weak.... Human after all.  

    Yeah, modern AS really the impressive things (other than Warder bonds, etc) it’s the individuals who are the big exceptions in the comparison.  But also AoL AS training was much more comprehensive in general, plus they lived about twice as long without the 3 oaths.  Don’t forget, the Forsaken are powerful, well trained, and experienced, but they’re also every bit as human as the modern AS, and several times fall victim to that hubris that they must inevitably actually be better than modern channelers.

    Obviously channeling groups outside of the AS don’t fall victim to the same issues in many cases.

  2. Re: Nynaeve healing when angry.  She comments to Moiraine (when confronted about being able to channel) about Healing Egwene (thus why she was able to track her) that the prior Wisdom had told her Egwene would recover from breakbone fever.  Nynaeve got so so upset/angry thinking she was watching Egwene die in front of her that she channeled and Healed her.  The Wisdom was upset and grilled her about what she did to cure her so quickly, sure she must have done [i]something[/i].  Then she comments that a week later she got really sick, this as a result of channeling for the first time.

    Re: it taking years and years to learn “one weave”.  Modern Aes Sedai only knew one kind of Healing.  As commented by ... Semirrhage?... that Healing was only the sloppiest kind of battlefield Healing used in the AoL.  As we know from all Channeling some people do better with particular weaves than others, so it’s not surprising that some are better at Healing than others since they’re all learning the same thing.  Some have a Talent of some sort, or are Healing savants and can do as quoted above in varying what’s done, how it’s done, and to what degree.  It’s still not much compared to full Healing, though takes less effort on the part of the Channeler.  Modern Aes Sedai are pretty moribund where it comes to learning different things.  I’m sure there are some kinds of Healing an otherwise poor Healer could learn.  but if they only have one tool some are just going to suck at doing it.

  3. On 7/24/2020 at 10:28 AM, 3Spins said:

    Also, remember that Moiraine was Tar Valon's spy master. She would have all kinds of sources of information sources.

     

    Moiraine wasn’t Tar Valon’s spy master.  She spent very little time in the Tower after being raised Aes Sedai (and yes there’s an entire other argument of whether or not she ever returned to the Tower after the events of NS).  Moiraine was however a Cairhienen noblewoman, born and bred in the game of houses.  She’s spent the last ~20 years traveling around the world searching out Rand, and has set up her own network of eyes and ears during that time.  In addition she has access to the Blue Ajah’s network both as a Blue, plus as a conspirator of Siuan who was the head of the Blue’s network prior to being raised Amyrlin.  The Blue’s network is noted multiple times in the series as being the most comprehensive network of all the Ajahs.

  4. ^^ what he said.  Isam was Lan’s cousin whose parents betrayed Malkier and brought about the country’s downfall.  He and his parents (mother?) were overrun by Trollocs as Lan’s guard spririted him away.  He’s presumed dead for that reason.

     

    Isam and Luc (Luc being Rand’s uncle, brother to Tigraine/Shael, killer of Rand’s father Janduin) are two sides of the same coin that is Slayer.  Slayer can switch between being Isam or Luc, as well as between the waking and dream worlds.  I believe he can be either in either place (I feel like there was an instance where he was spying on the wondergirls in the Andorran Royal Palace in Tel’aran’rhiod as Luc), though we generally see Luc in the real world, and Isam in the dream world.

  5. Rereading Crown of Swords currently and just went back over the part when Elayne and Nynaeve first meet the Kin.  On the way back from that meeting Elayne is explaining to Nynaeve about slowing in regards to how old the women they’ve met must be in order to show gray hair (and notes they don’t have the Ageless look, but they haven’t figured that out yet).  Women who channel start slowing around age 20-25.  Elayne’s example is another Accepted who Nynaeve believes to be her own age who has a younger sister with gray hair.  So she’s likely twice Nynaeve’s age but still appears roughly the same age.

  6. On 4/5/2020 at 1:22 AM, Effete said:

    Well, I think maintaining a close proximity is necessary so the channeler can actually see what their weaves are doing, but physical contact is not needed. As you say, Flinn hovers his hands over Rand... and he talks, which he said makes it easier for some reason (again, his own "learned" behavior). ?

     

    If I recall correctly, Nyneave also doesn't touch Logain when she Heals his severing; she just stares at him across the table. I might be wrong on that, though, not sure.

     

    I’m trying to think back to that moment when she heals Logain.  I feel like there was a comment that she took hold of his head and thought about how that made the gap easier to feel.  

     

    As to killing with Healing, I’d say it’s possible.  There are multiple mentions about Chesmal, one of the Yellows best Healers, also being adept at killing with the power.  I mean if you’re adept at Healing it shoudn’t take much for you to make someone stroke out.

  7. On 12/3/2019 at 11:55 PM, Sabio said:

     

    Also another make you wonder moment in TGH pg 322 Moiraine says "Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, should anything happen to me, for your bond pass to another".  So when was this?  We know it wasn't when she was at Fal Dara since she said we and no word of Lan leaving Fal Dara for any length of time, also highly unlikely she would ride to the WT and the ride back while beating the Amirlyn coming by ship.  

     

     


    good catch. I’d also forgotten completely about that. It states outright she had been back to the Tower (no Aes Sedai twisting). Of course it could have been after Fal Dara and before she ends up with Adelaes and Vandene. 
     

    we know Moiraine did the pass-the-bond weave to Myrelle at some point, and per Myrelle she was specifically supposed to pass it to Nynaeve once she was raised to the shawl. Obviously she couldn’t have set up passing it to Nynaeve before going to Emonds Field. I always assumed she set up the bond passing before going to Emonds Field, then sent Myrelle a message after tEotW. 
     

    at the risk of not supporting the Moiraine-returned-to the WT after NS viewpoint the quote could just show that Moiraine and LAN went to the WT after Fal Dara. Doesn’t make much sense since the Amyrlin and Co went straight to the WT from Fal Dara and Moiraine left them before they got there. 

  8. On 10/20/2019 at 4:16 AM, wotfan4472 said:

    That is my feeling to, but with differences in whether it is saidin, saidar, or the True Power being sensed. Saidar should be more softer or musical. Saidin should be the Highlander Immortal sense. The True Power, however should be the drunk, stumbling, woozy feeling. Like the scientist first walking up to give his evidence in the Chernobyl trial episode, but to a far worse extent. 

     

    You aren’t’ supposed to be able to sense another person using the TP, only see the effects.

  9. 2 hours ago, Ryrin said:

    2. When Moriane met Siuan in Fal Dara they discussed the fact that both the Greens and the Reds wanted Moiraine disciplined with the Greens willing to let the Reds handle it.
     

    Why you may ask? They were all aware that Moiraine left the Tower without permission and that she had taken the terangreal with her. They wanted it back.

     

    I still don’t see the connection the way you do.  The Hall suggested the discipline for Moiraine not because of the angreal, or because of leaving against the Amyrlin’s orders.  They were suggesting it because of Elaida’s report that Moiraine was meddling with a dangerous ta’veren.  

     

    As quoted above, the discussion about punishing Moiraine for that exact reason takes place in a separate chapter, and eight pages before the mention of the angreal.  The angreal is only mentioned as an “oh by the way” when Moiraine brings it up.  

  10. 10 hours ago, Ryrin said:

    The Tower not only wanted it back the Greens and Reds wanted her punished. The Greens agreed to let the Reds oversee it.

     

    Yes, Siuan specifically says this to Moiraine, but you have the context wrong.

     

    The Great Hunt - Summoned - Siuan to Moiraine

    ”Elaida had another reason for coming to Tar Valon, Daughter.  She sent the same message by six different pigeons to make sure I received it - and to whom else in Tar Valon she sent pigeons, I can only guess - then came herself.  She told the Hall of the Tower that you are meddling with a young man who is ta’veren, and dangerous.  he was in Camlyn, she said, but when she found the inn where he had been staying, she discovered you had spirited him away.”

     

    Moiraine says she hopes Elaida caused the innkeeper (Basil Gill) no harm, and Siuan goes on to say that Elaida harms no one except those are dangerous (darkfriends, male channelers, those who would harm the Tower), then further that Elaida said Rand was more dangerous than any man since Arthur Hawkwing, has the Fortelling and her words carry weight in the Hall.  Moiraine admits she has three young men with her but none are a king

     

    ”Yes, Daughter.  Village youths, so Lord Agelmar tells me.  But one of them is ta’veren.” The Amyrlin’s eyes strayed to the flattened cube again.  “It was put forward in the Hall that you should be sent into retreat for contemplation.  This was proposed by one of the Sitters for the Green Agah, with the other two nodding approval as she spoke”

     

    So here we see the progression

    -Elaida meets Rand

    -Moiraine escapes Caemlyn to the Ways

    -Elaida finds Rand gone, sends six messenger pigeons and then goes in person to Tar Valon

    -Elaida tells the Hall that Moiraine is meddling with a dangerous young man who is ta’veren

    -The Greens propose a punishment for Moiraine for having meddled with the young man

    -Moiraine is now considered unreliable and the Hall wants back the angreal she has

     

    There’s eight pages and a chapter divide between the discussion of the proposal to recall Moiraine and Siuan saying the Hall wanted the angreal back because Moiraine was now considered “unreliable”, so I don’t think you can make an argument that they were going to punish her for having the angreal.

  11. 47 minutes ago, Sabio said:

    Moiraine was never in line for the throne. The companion shows she had two older sisters and her cousin Lady Caraline succeeded Barthanes as high seat.,   She was actually almost considered an outcast from the family since her dad married for love instead of for land or gaining more power for the family.   Her family had a dark reputation. which is why she rarely used her house name, it was clear she really didn't want anything to do with her family because the family had such a dark reputation. Also until you reach Aes Sedai you can't leave the tower, so it means no running off to see your family.  That would be too big of a risk for someone to runaway.  Even Elayne couldn't simply leave anytime she wanted to.

     

    If she had that angreal in New Spring why not use it when she was fighting the BA?  Also as pointed out Lan would need to get his cloak etc.  So she had to of visited a few times, some possibly by secret.  But also would of seemed odd her trying to speak to Siuan, so when she was there it would make sense not to contact Siuan.  

     

    Rand is like 18 at the start of the series,  so they couldn't of started the search for him almost 2 years before he was born.  Also she didn't start the search immedietly, Tamra wouldn't let Moiraine leave the tower to go hunt.  So she couldn't leave the tower to go searching until Tamra died.  

     

    There were better options in the Damodred line, but with the support of the Tower her less than direct claim probably would have been sustained.   As it is the throne passed from house Damodred to Riatan (unless there was another monarch in there somewhere).

     

    ”20 years” is a convenient rounding up.  The “Hunt” for the boy-child began with Gitara’s Fortelling, then within months she was on the road tracking down names.  18 years later the events of tEotW occur, and take much of the year.  By the time Siuan and Co. Arrive in Fal Dara it’s been nearly 19 years ...... so 20 years isn’t that much of a stretch.

  12. 9 hours ago, Ryrin said:

    Moiraine would not have slipped into the Tower. Not only did she leave without permission but the Tower had planned for her to sit on the Sun throne as Queen. Moiraine had no desire to be queen nor to stop her search for Rand.That’s why she left and would not risk returning. Siuan was very upset there were only two messages in 20 years. She had no idea what was going on until Moiraine entered the Three Rivers twenty years later.

     

    Moirane left the Tower in New Spring with the angreal. The Tower not only wanted it back the Greens and Reds wanted her punished. The Greens agreed to let the Reds oversee it.

     

    Yes, Moiraine has been gone too long, some 20 years. Moiraine is from House Damodred. Her Uncle was King. It took her six years to be raised to Aes Sedai. It’s highly unlikely, coming from a noble house, that she did not return in 6 years.

     

     

     

    I’m sorry, but that one statement from Siuan doesn’t state she hadn’t returned ever, or give a timeframe for when she sent those two messages.  To be fair there also isn’t a direct statement I’m aware of which says she did.  Only the circumstantial tid bits I’ve noted.

     

    Yes, the Hall wanted very strongly to sit a full Aes Sedai on the Sun Throne after Laman’s death, and the death of Moiraine’s uncles.  Those events caused a power vacuum in Cairhien and made placing her there an option.  And yes that was one reason Moiraine fled the Tower.  But once the Succession figured itself out and a monarch was crowned (was that Galldrain, or was there another person before him) being forced to become queen wouldn’t have been an issue.  

     

    New Spring - Moiraine fleeing the Tower

    They could not put her on the Sun Throne, now. By the time the Hall found her, another would be secure in it. And she was off to find the boy-child. She was off on an adventure as grand as any ever undertaken by an Aes Sedai”

     

    As to the angreal you need to provide textev that she had it with her in New Spring.  There’s any number of times she thinks on her lack of full power in New Spring, and having an angreal would’ve help even the odds in the situations where she was most threatened.  She left the Tower precipitously after getting Sieran to reassign the distribution of the Bounty to someone else, and Sieran told her to stick around because they’d have another task for her (being crowned), so not like she had time to go to the angreal library and check one out.

     

    I really don’t think Moiraine left the Tower before being raised.  One I don’t believe there’s textev for it.  Two as stated multiple times throughout the books the Tower doesn’t let Novices or Accepted out without significant reason (Siuan sending the super girls out was unthinkable for the Tower as a whole), and the Tower does not care or pander to noble titles an initiate has.  Think on Elaine’s treatment as not only a noble, but as a Crown Princess of a realm super friendly to the Tower.  

  13. I still think the evidence is circumstantial.  Yes Siuan states she’s only received two messages from her since she left the Tower, but she doesn’t say when Moiraine last left the Tower.  There are a few tid bits in support of Moiraine having returned to the Tower since New Spring.  

     

    At the end of New Spring Moiraine sends Siuan back to the tower to work with the Blue’s Eyes and Ears, look out for signs of the Black Ajah, etc.  They have no concrete plans at this point besides finding the boy child.  So in the 20 years they developed those plans, and somehow I doubt they decided to communicate by messenger/bird their plans given how anyone who intercepted those plans would tend to react.  The quote above clearly states they had plans.  We know from Moiraine’s message to Siuan after Rand took Callandor that anything they’d communicate that way would be short and non-specific riddles.  “The Sling has been used.  The Shepard holds the sword” or some such.  Not a lot of concrete planning being communicated that way.

     

    Lan has a warder cloak, made from a Ter’Angreal which is in the Tower.  I’m sure there might be some way for Moiraine to arrange to have a cloak shipped out somewhere for her, so that could go either way.  

     

    The Great Hunt - The Shadow in Shienar - in reference to Healing Mat of the Shadar Logoth dagger

    ”Leanne will do for one, and I can find another.”  Suddenly the Amyrlin Seat gave a wry grin.  “The Hall wants that angreal back, Moiraine.  There are not very many of them left, and you are now considered...unreliable.”

    Moiraine has an angreal which she did not have in New Spring.  An angreal is not something the Hall would likely allow to be sent out by courier given how rare and valuable they are, so it’s suggestive she picked it up in person.  

     

    Moiraine thinks in New Spring that she wouldn’t return to the Tower until she attained her full strength, something which she did between NS, and tEotW.  This was, I believe, in relation to an encounter with Cadsuane, but I don’t have the quote handy at the moment.

     

    New Spring - A Narrow Passage - Moiraine thinking to herself

    ”Sisters did slip in and out of the Tower quietly sometimes”

     

    The Great Hunt - Summoned - Anaiya to Moraine

    This time, Moiraine,” Anaiya said, “you have been gone from Tar Valon too long.  Much too long.  Tar Valon misses you.  Your sisters miss you.  And you are needed in the White Tower.” emphasis mine

    Assuming Moiraine never returned to the Tower after New Spring Anaiya saying Moiraine had been away too long “this time” doesn’t make sense.  I can’t remember from New Spring if Moiraine ever left the tower after enrolling as a Novice, just that she and Siuan arrived the same day, and progressed in lockstep with three years each as Novice and Accepted.  There are multiple comments throughout the series that the Tower didn’t lightly let Novices or Accepted out of it’s control.  It does strongly imply that she has returned other time(s) in the last 20 years, and that this particular time away has been especially long.  An extended time off the grid would also align with Siuan’s displeasure in only receiving the two messages.

  14. Okay so your theory that Selene was not Lanfear in the beginning of TGH is based on her telling Rand that she was from Cairhien and had estates there and then later saying that she might have once had estates in that land and naming herself Lanfear?  Plain and simple Selene has always been Lanfear. 

     

    First Rand saw Lanfear through the window of the house in the village by the river.  Then Lanfear moved Rand/Hurin/Loial into the portal stone world while they were sleeping that night (as evidenced by Egwene's dream, plus Rand being unable to channel anything but spirit while asleep) in order to get herself involved with Rand.  Naming herself a lost and frightened refugee of the troubles just beginning to aflict Cairhien was a much better to ingratiate herself into Rand's company vs. saying, "Hi, I'm one of the Forsaken.".  While in the portal stone world her behavior as a little odd.... not really being afraid of the grolm (since she could easily defend herself), knowing about books Loial doesn't think exist anymore, encouraging Rand to remain in the "oneness" all the time (since she knows that's where he'll sense Saidin), trying to get him to blow the horn to pave his way for glory, flaunting herself while "brushing her dress" to try and entice Rand.  Later on she's just as odd.  She disappears from the inn outside Cairhien without the soldiers seeing her go (and they were really surprised she had left unnoticed), she suddenly reappears before Rand/Loial are chased into the Illuminator's compound, shields them from being seen while inside, and then disappears around a corner (probably via gateway).  From the moment we meet her there's something odd about her, from the way she behaves to her knowledge, to the way she comes and goes without anyone seeing her.  I don't think we see her again until after the battle of Falme and at that point she names herself Lanfear and we all go, "Oh of course!  It was her all the time".  So later in the Stone she appears and Rand thinks she's Selene.  Now Rand never told Min about Selene so there's no reason that Min would connect the two when Lanfear named herself, and we don't know if Min told Rand that Lanfear showed up after the battle.  At this point however she's out in the open. 

     

    Lanfear isn't bound by the Three Oaths so she can lie about who she is just like every other Forsaken.  She lied to give herself a cover identity such as other Chosen used.

    Rahvin = Gaebril

    Sammael = Lord Brend

    Be'lal = High Lord Samon

    Semmerhige = Anath

    Aginor = Dashiva/Osangar

    Balthamel = Halima/Arangar

    (Granted those last two are a little different)

  15. I think we can rule out anything beyond a Ter'angreal.  They specifically discuss that it's a storeroom with lots of random stuff on shelfs and that's it's fronted by a barracks.  They also discuss how it's one of the storerooms for Ter'angreal with unknown uses.

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