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WoT If…Padan Fain Makes Tarmon Gai'don the Last Battle?


Mashiara Sedai

Welcome back to "WoT If?". As promised last week, this is my take on the possible outcomes of Padan Fain's presence in the last book.

 

Spoiler warning! This will include content from many books in the series, including Towers of Midnight, and speculation about A Memory of Light. Please read at your own risk.

 

First, let's start with a quote from Robert Jordan:

 

Question: What is Padan Fain's overall role in the Wheel Of Time (besides hating Rand with a passion)?

 

Robert Jordan: Read and find out ...except you should be able to figure out most of it by now. Think a little bit—it's all there, really.

 

So, according to this, it'll be easy to sort it all out.

 

Now, what the HECK is Fain? He was a Darkfriend for forty years before the story started. When the Seals began to weaken, he was picked to become a Hound for the Dark One, sniffing out the Dragon Reborn. He had his memories "distilled" (The Eye of the World, Chapter 47, "More Tellings of the Wheel") and fed back to him. Then, ordered by Ba'alzamon (Ishamael), he began his hunt for the three ta'veren. Along this chase, he encountered Mordeth in Shadar Logoth and merged with him, becoming a combination of their two personalities (The Great Hunt, Chapter 49, "What Was Meant to Be").

 

To understand more of Fain's current state, we need to find out more about Mordeth. Mordeth, according to the glossary in The Great Hunt, was a councilor for the king of Aridhol. Obsessed with his hatred for the Shadow, Mordeth sought ways in which to conquer the Dark One once and for all. He wanted to accomplish this by any means necessary. This is important because to Mordeth, the end justifies the means; that is, he's not concerned about who is harmed as long as he achieves his goals. This principle led to the city of Aridhol using methods as evil as the Shadow's.

 

An interview with Brandon Sanderson shows Mordeth's obsession with finding something that could beat the Shadow:

 

Matt Hatch: Ok. You mentioned that Mordeth was a man that had "power". You are reported as saying that his power was that "which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow"...

 

Brandon Sanderson: He was seeking things that were related to the Shadow. I think that that might be a misquote. He was looking into the power of the Shadow in order to defeat it, was his goal. He was looking into everything. He was looking into things that were not necessarily related to the Dark One as well. He was looking for everything that he could get...

 

Matt Hatch: ..previous to him arriving to Aridhol?

 

Brandon Sanderson: ...Yeah...

 

Matt Hatch: ...before he went to the King and became the counselor, Mordeth was this guy that went around searching for Power?

 

Brandon Sanderson: Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it [...] He originally was good. He did not...he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has...just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power...we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than...there are other evils things that are old in a similar way...

 

Matt Hatch: ...is the assumption then that he found one of these?

 

Brandon Sanderson: He did.

 

Matt Hatch: He found one or multiple?

 

Brandon Sanderson: He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into...when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought we are going to raise this Kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow, but he was already by then corrupted.

 

Matt Hatch: Is this same corrupting influence that corrupts everyone through the dagger itself?

 

Brandon Sanderson: Yeah. Through him, yes. And even through his presence.

 

Another interview speculates about what choices Mordeth made in his battle against the Shadow:

 

Ted Herman: Did Mordeth go to the Finns?

 

Brandon Sanderson: YES.

 

Which of the Finns did Mordeth see? My guess would be both. So, he had three answers and three gifts. What would they have been? There's a lot of room for interesting speculation here. I won't go too much into it, but it seems like the Aelfinn gave him good answers—since he did go through with his plans—and he did receive something, from the Eelfinn or elsewhere, that made him gain these unnatural, evil powers.

 

Hypothetically, one of those questions might have been how to defeat the Dark One. As we know, the Aelfinn give riddles for answers, so Mordeth probably acted on their advice the wrong way, leading to his, and Aridhol's, downfall. Personally, I'd guess that his actions will still aid Rand in re-sealing the Dark One, which would fulfill the riddle given by the Aelfinn, but probably not in the way Mordeth expected. Just a guess.

 

The combination of Fain and Mordeth—we'll still call him Fain—gains some incredible powers, which increase as the story continues. Those powers include, but are not limited to, creating illusions. In fact, I was surprised to stumble upon an interview that said Fain was responsible for the visions Rand saw of Trollocs attacking a family (The Great Hunt, Chapter 10, "The Hunt Begins"). I always credited this to the "woman in white" (Lanfear). However, we see in the prologue of Towers of Midnight that Fain's illusion abilities have morphed into a sort of zombie-creating mist. I think this is an evolved version of Mashadar. Besides the illusion and Mashadar, I don't think we have a clear understanding of what kind of powers Fain has.

 

That leads us to the heart of the discussion: what will Fain's role be in the Last Battle? There are many theories out there already; I've found five that seem plausible. And on a side note, I'm going to point out that Padan Fain is not going to have the same fate as Gollum. There's been a lot of comparison between the two, so here's Brandon Sanderson saying so:

 

Question: Is Padan Fain going to turn out like Gollum?

 

Brandon Sanderson: No, he is not going to be like that. I am aware of the comparisons, and I am trying to distance him from that. The scene in Towers of Midnight with Padan Fain was originally written differently, and when I submitted it to Harriet she said, "Oh no, he's much crazier than that!" So I changed it accordingly.

 

1. Fain will kill one (or some) of the Forsaken.

 

This one stems from Fain's line in Winter's Heart where he said, "He [Rand] belongs to me" (Chapter 22, "Out of Thin Air"). This theory suggests that Rand will be fighting the Forsaken, most likely Moridin, and Fain, in a jealous rage, will kill the Forsaken. This is very believable, and could easily happen. In all likelihood, the Forsaken will have all their attention focused on Rand. Fain could slip in unnoticed and easily do away with the Forsaken.

 

We know that Fain is heading to Shayol Ghul, in order to meet Rand there (Towers of Midnight, Prologue). However, how safe will Fain be near the presence of the Dark One? He's got powers to protect him—and his zombified Trollocs—but there are some pretty scary creatures on the slopes of Shayol Ghul. Also, with the price on his head, and assassins (Slayer) after him, Fain would be an easy target out in the Blight. How will he go about hiding until the Last Battle starts?

 

2. Fain will kill Rand.

 

This is the same as the one above, but substitute Rand for the Forsaken. Distracted by fighting, Rand could easily be killed by Fain in the same fashion.

 

There are a couple of arguments against this one. First is Alivia. She is supposed to help Rand die (Winter's Heart, Chapter 25, "Bonds"). So, if Fain kills Rand, Alivia doesn't. Unless, of course, she is a Darkfriend, or some other sort of evil creature, who has sided with Fain and helps lead him to Rand. Second, there's been a big Rand/Ishamael rivalry going on since book one. Having Fain turn up and kill Rand would be unexpected, but not in line with the rest of the flow in the series. Most of us believe it will come to a Moridin and Rand showdown.

 

3. Fain draws the Dark One.

 

I found this one on the Dragonmount forums, posted by bmunge.

 

Another theory would be around the effects of channeling the True Power at Fain. As we saw with the cleansing, the Taint was attracted to Shadar Logoth and once the reaction began it was sustaining. With the TP being the essence of the DO, what would happen if Rand through his link with Moridin channeled the TP at Fain? Would it create a similar reaction with the essence of the DO being drawn to Fain? It's going to be pretty interesting to see what happens to him.

 

I'll expand on this a bit and say that since we do see the Taint and Shadar Logoth's evil battling one another, there could be a connection, or attraction, between the two. If, after Rand breaks the Seals, the Dark One gets free, he could be drawn to the anti-Shadow evil of Shadar Logoth. All his negative effects and powers could shoot straight into Fain, rather than at Rand and the rest of the world.

 

That would be very interesting, and not at all expected, I think.

 

4. Fain breaks the Seals.

 

This came as a surprise to me. I naturally assumed Rand would break the rest of the Seals, because he told Egwene he would. But some argue that the Dark Prophecy at the end of Towers of Midnight might refer to Fain, not Rand. Here's the quote:

 

Towers of Midnight

Epilogue

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith’s pride shall come.

 

From this format, we may think the One-Eyed Fool is Mat, the First Among Vermin is Rand, and the Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin. Since three people are listed, our first thought is of our three ta'veren. However, these phrases are a bit vague. There are plenty of men with one eye (Uno?), many who can fit the description of First (Galad and the Whitecloaks?), and tons of blacksmiths (Aiel?).

 

However, the logic of it being Fain who breaks the Seals stems from his overwhelming hatred for the Dark One: he'd unleash his anger and break the Seals. That seems almost counterproductive. If he hates the Dark One, wouldn’t he want to keep him sealed up?

 

5. Fain is the buffer against the Dark One.

 

This one sort of evolved from the theory that Fain will be a buffer against the Dark One's backlash. However, I think saidar and saidin working together will be enough to keep the backlash from taking effect, if there will even be a backlash. If I understand correctly, the Dark One struck out blindingly when he was sealed by Lews Therin. It happened to hit saidin and taint it. I don't think it was actually planned.

 

Fain being a buffer against the Dark One seems plausible. As I said before, the Shadow and the anti-Shadow evil of Shadar Logoth are enemies. The two wounds in Rand's side show that they battle against each other, almost negating the other's evil effects. If Fain could get close enough, he could negate the Dark One's power, allowing Rand to seal up the Bore.

 

To do this, Fain's hatred for the Dark One would need to be more than his hatred of Rand. This could only happen if Rand is already dead, or if Rand is able to convince Fain to fight the Dark One instead. Is Fain past reason? Can Rand talk him into a different course of action?

 

Brandon Sanderson did say this about Fain being sealed in with the Dark One:

 

Question: What do you think would happen if Rand managed to hurl Padan Fain through the Bore into the Dark One's prison?

 

Brandon Sanderson: The Dark One would spit him back out because he tastes bad.

 

However, that could just be Brandon trying to get us off the scent.

 

The best argument for this theory is Robert Jordan's insistence that Fain is unique to this age:

 

Question: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in the previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

 

Robert Jordan: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

If Fain is unique, that means something like him—and his counter-evil—hasn't been seen before. I think this piece of information could lead to the eradication of the Dark One completely. It could be the end to the battle, making this the Last Battle in truth. Ishamael has insisted that this battle happens every time the Wheel turns, but we do know that it's been called the Last Battle for a reason.

 

Are we actually going to have the ending, not an ending?

 

Out of all the five, I think the first and last (even without the ending of the Wheel) are most likely, though all could be possible. We'll conclude this week's edition there. Come back next time and we'll take a look at Dark Prophecy, among other things.

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In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith’s pride shall come.

 

When I hear "First Among Vermin", I think of Fain. I agree that the "One Eyed Fool" is Matrim and the "Fallen Blacksmith" is Perrin, but "Him who will Destroy" is more likely to be Rand.

 

These theories are so good, but I can't decide which one I think is more likely to happen.

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Interesting theories. Can't say which I like or feel more plausible. Lets try though.

Fain kills a forsaken..Lanfear ? Rand will know who she is, won't bend to her being bonded/ in love and she will attempt to kill him. A "woman scorned " if I can't have you no one shall and in the ensuing fight Fain, in his berserker rage, kills her for attempting to kill " what is his "

 

Fain kills Demandred.. very well know of the jeleousy between LTT/Rand and Demandred. Again it will be the "what is mine " rage.

 

Fain kills the "Dark One"..I personally like that thought because Rand must face him and as it has been shown numerous times throughout the series, Fain truely believes he is the only one to kill Rand for what he believes he has done to him.

 

Alivia "helps Rand die" Fain goes absoultly berserk, kills her, the Dark One, any Forsaken that are near by then Nyn and Egewene in a link with.....LOGAIN trap Fain in a new bore using Calandore.

 

Yea..it could happen !!

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Finally! Some one who agrees with me, It IS the end. The wheel is going to be broken.

 

I have a question though and the whole 'new to this age' and an 'evil older than time' (sung in the voice of a singing tea pot) made me think of it. You have completely skipped over his encounter with the as yet unexplained Black Wind along the ways. Is the black wind under the same category as ancient evil? No one seems to know what, where or how it started. A lot of theories but nothing solid. So, is Fain three parts in a whole, DO, Mashadar and Machin'shin, or only half and half?

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Finally! Some one who agrees with me, It IS the end. The wheel is going to be broken.

...

So, is Fain three parts in a whole, DO, Mashadar and Machin'shin, or only half and half?

 

Fain upon entering the ways the first time, encounters Machin'shin. The book describes it as a meeting between equals. I don't think it says they merged.

 

I too believe that this is the end of the wheel's turning. It's not a 'real' ending when you know that something similar will happen in another 5-10 thousand years.

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"He is unique to this particular Age." meaning, he's not unique of all ages, this age will come around again. meaning it cannot be the end of the pattern...

 

i still believe that fains purpose, is to become the DO... rand has already several times spoken his intent to "kill the dark one", and i really do see fain as a younger sort of dark one..

 

rand kills DO --> fixes prison --> fain attacks --> rand weakened from the repairs, cannot fight fain, so he pushes him into the prison, and seals it --> fain spends the next few thousand years still growing until he's too big for the prison again and starts squeezing out between the bars and we need another TG to cut him down to size/replace him again(when this age comes again)

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Finally! Some one who agrees with me, It IS the end. The wheel is going to be broken.

 

I feel the same. I am hoping that this is the story of that crucial point where cyclic time becomes linear time. Below is a post I made back in 2009 in Leigh Butler's TGH reread:

 

Take a look at these two passages, the first being Ishy addressing Lews Theron in the prologue of TEoTW, and the second being Ishy addressing Rand in chapter 15 of TGH:

 

“Ten years! You pitiful fool! This war has not lasted ten years, but since the beginning of time. You and I have fought a thousand battles with the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a thousand, and we will fight until time dies and the Shadow is triumphant!”

 

“I have a thousand strings tied to you, Kinslayer, each one finer than silk and stronger than steel. Time has tied a thousand cords between us. The battle we two have fought—do you remember any part of that? Do you have any glimmering that we have fought before, battles without number back to the beginning of Time? I know much that you do not! That battle will soon end. The Last Battle is coming. The last, Lews Therin. Do you really think you can avoid it? You poor, shivering worm. You will serve me or die! And this time the cycle will not begin anew with your death. The grave belongs to the Great Lord of the Dark. This time if you die, you will be destroyed utterly. This time the Wheel will be broken whatever you do, and the world remade to a new mold. Serve me! Serve Shai’tan, or be destroyed forever!”

 

I hope this is not just a crazy Ishy-rant, and that it is actually forshadowing the conclusion of AMoL. This Wheel of Time idea is great and all, but I actually want the Wheel to be broken. I want this to be the story of the true Last Battle. "This time the Wheel will be broken whatever you do, and the world remade to a new mold." But if it does turn out to be just a tale of another turning of the Wheel, I guess I won't mind too much. It was a great ride after all.

 

...Below are a couple more TGH quotes supporting this theme.

 

In the prologue (Ishy addressing the darkfriend social):

"Soon the Wheel of Time will be broken. Soon the Great Serpent will die, and with the power of that death, the death of Time itself, your Master will remake the world in his own image for this Age and for all Ages to come..."

 

In chapter 41 (Ishy addressing Rand again):

"You will die, worm! How many times have you died across the span of the Ages, fool, and how much has death availed you? The grave is cold and lonely, save for the worms. The grave is mine. This time there will be no rebirth for you. This time the Wheel of Time will be broken and the world remade in the image of the Shadow. This time your death will be forever! Which will you choose? Death everlasting? Or life eternal – and power!"

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Let me explain the main reason why I want this cyclic time thing to end. In an interview RJ said the following:

 

"This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it."

 

So...if there is the possibility of ultimate loss, there should also be a possibility of ultimate victory. If not, this continual repetition (with the slight variations) will eventually result in the ultimate loss RJ mentions in the quote above. We may pull off another draw this round, but if we can't break out of this cyclic time, we will eventually lose.

 

That's why I join Millon in hoping we get to see the breaking of the Wheel of Time.

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Millon, on , said:

 

Finally! Some one who agrees with me, It IS the end. The wheel is going to be broken.

Here's my take on this. So the Pattern is the Dark one's prison, maintained by the turning of the wheel. I feel the only way it can break is if the Dark One actually finds a way out. My opinion is he will destroy the pattern and the wheel once he gets out or if he doesn't, he'll walk away from it in a tattered state and leave the remaining threads (people) to their own devices, whether the Forsaken or someone else is in charge of the remains. Shai'tan WANTS to get out. He regrets Rahvin's balefirey death because a reformed Rahvin could still have been useful like Arangar, moridin, and Cyndane, but balefire took that chance away. Mark my words, the ONLY reason the he puts up with any mere mortal is because he needs them to weaken the pattern so he can eventually leave.

 

Whoops, I was rambling again. suffice to say that I think if the Wheel breaks, it will be because the Shadow won, not because Rand missed attacking the Dark One and accidentally hit the wheel or something.

 

To be honest I'm only on book 6 and it's been years since I read as far as book 10, so i may be missing a lot, but those are my thoughts.

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One idea I have not seen discussed much (although in all honestly I have not looked very hard) is that the One Power/True Power will be inaccessible at the end of the "last" battle. This would neatly resolve the main impediment to Seanchan integration, as well as give rise to a new, more egalitarian, "age of man." Whether the wheel is broken forever or not, this is an entirely plausible (and I'd argue elegant, symmetric, balanced) outcome. There have been many suggestions that the Dark One is entirely unknown in some ages (turnings of the wheel), but not a single suggestion that the One Power/True Power is always accessible. To know the former implies that you should be able to know the latter if it is, in fact, true. The lack of tacit reference to the One Power/True Power in all ages suggests, to me, that this more balanced final scenario is the most likely one - it would certainly be the most bittersweet.

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@ElderHaman: I like that "the OnePower/True Power will be inaccessible "

that would certainly give the schools Rand has started with the "steam engine" bringing a "new technology age "

Maybe that is what is the something wrong with Avis' babies. They will never have known the True Source.

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I would say that Fain is certainly not human anymore.Perhaps he has become the embodiment of all the evil in that world as the Dark One exists outside of that reality,apparently in his dimensional prison for the most part.Maybe it is Fain's role to help remove this foreign evil and help to restore the world to its normal balance of good and evil ala Moorcock's Eternal Champion cycle. My question is: What is the deal with Shadar Haran? Where is he? What is he doing to free himself from being tied to Shayol Gul?

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@ElderHaman: I like that "the OnePower/True Power will be inaccessible "

that would certainly give the schools Rand has started with the "steam engine" bringing a "new technology age "

Maybe that is what is the something wrong with Avis' babies. They will never have known the True Source.

 

during avi's future walk through rhuidean, we find out what the unusualness of her children is... they channel naturally... which means that theory is bunk... the next age may be a 100% stedding, but if it is, its a VERY slow growing one... taking several generations at least.

 

is there an age where there's no channelling? something makes me doubt it... else the dragon of that age, wouldn't be able to reseal the DO... unless we're saying the sealing has nothing to do with channelling...?

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Millon, I was under the assumption that Machin Shin was a product of the taint on saidin, therefore, it's part of the Shadow. That's something that sounds interesting, so I might look into it further.

 

Elder Haman, I think the Power will be lost eventually (see my post about the sul'dam and damane relationship), but not right after the Last Battle. Looking at prophecies and Foretellings, the White Tower still exists after the battle is complete. There wouldn't be a White Tower if the Power completely disappeared.

 

78Warlock, I thought it was pretty clear that the oddity of Aviendha's babies is that they touch the True Source at all times--even when asleep.

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Fain is there to remove Shadar Haran and perhaps merge with or replace Shai'tan.

 

He will be at Shadar Logoth long before Rand gets there. most likely he is going to be trashing the place halfway through the next book and it seems plausible some of the forsaken will be tasked with eliminating him.

 

for some reason (authors in general) love killing off heros at the end of the series. In Rands case you could say his soul is rewarded with death to escape spending the rest of his life disfigured and in pain were he killed off, but I sure hope that Mr. Jordan, who wrote the most epic book series I have ever been sucked into, does not go that route.

 

On the time where the power doesn't exist the Sean'chean may actually cull the ability out of mankind to any meaningful degree. this could last 2000 years or more. it will take the power to finish ripping the new bore open where Avhienda weakened the pattern with her exploding doorway. and as the lands elevation changes over the centuries it may no longer even be on the ground.

 

so that means the dark one would be unknown in those ages. Then as the ability pools and builds back up the sul'dam having been lost into myth and time whatever culture exists will suddenly find themselves with hedge witches and sorcerers until they realize they all use the same power, research it yet again.

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we already know that rand can not use brute force nor direct contact with the do,so to avoid another taint rand will use padan fain as a buffer between himself and the do,in other words fight evil with evil,after that he will use callandor to reseal the bore using saidin and saidar this time.

like cromwell said,padan fain will be in shayol ghul long before rand,and probably shaidar haran and moridin too,so it will be interesting to see who kills whom.

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Another interesting thing I noticed regarding Mordeth's evil on my current re-read of WoT is when Aginor and Balthamel catch the group at the Eye, Aginor says that they tracked them by following Mat (he points at Mat, who was carrying the dagger at the time). And Aginor says something along the lines of an old enemy, an old friend. So though Fain himself may be unique to this Age, Mordeth's evil may have existed in the Age of Legends, too.

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I feel I must point out that Mordeth couldn't possibly have asked the Aelfinn about how to defeat the Dark One. It's made quite clear that one cannot ask questions that touch upon the Dark One (and my theory on why is that their ability to read the pattern is like a beefed up version of Min's ability - note that she hasn't ever been able to identify a darkfriend, or otherwise see things to do with the Dark One, with her ability).

 

On the other hand, it is possible that he asked them about objects capable of ensuring the ongoing survival of humanity; the objects could be the powerful things that were mentioned above, and the way that they would be able to ensure the ongoing survival, indirectly, is that, without having to do with the Dark One, they'll still be able to completely destroy the Dark One. But it wasn't time for them, yet, so the items just destroyed Mordeth, corrupting him and then Aridhol.

 

Either that, or he did go in there asking for information about the Dark One, and the information they gave, and the items the Eelfinn gave, corrupted him - hence the prohibition on asking things touching on the Dark One.

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There must have been a time where people were not aware of the One Power or Tamurlyn would not be credited with it's discovery in th AoL.Perhaps all the events of the Age are the result of the Finns manipulations to provide themselves with delicious emotions to consume. Maybe they found the AoL to be too peaceful,not producing the emotions they desire,so they set events in motion to bring about its end. Maybe Lanfear or someone else involved in the project that opened the Bore simply asked them," Is there a power accessable by both men and women" and they said "Sure, just bore a hole thru the pattern here." Voila-age ends and 3000 years of destruction and conflict ensue and the concurrent strong emotions and experiences they love.Sorry for this tangent,but I just find the Age of Legends endlessly fascinating

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With Fain being a 'Unique' to this age. Perhaps he will allow for the perfect seal to the prison. Perhaps, even just Fain's pressence in Shayol Ghul is enough to counter act a lot of the DOs influence. He clearly has no fear of the creatures in the Blight. ( Killing the Worms because it had to be done right). Whatever kind of evil he got into, he could very well just be the difference maker by being. Aridhol consumed itself back in the day, couldn't he have the same sort of result in the blight? Thus weakening everything for Rand to put on a show. Fain could always decide to assist with the DO getting killed/reimprisoned, and realize he can kill Rand later, at his will.

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Millon, I was under the assumption that Machin Shin was a product of the taint on saidin, therefore, it's part of the Shadow. That's something that sounds interesting, so I might look into it further.

 

Elder Haman, I think the Power will be lost eventually (see my post about the sul'dam and damane relationship), but not right after the Last Battle. Looking at prophecies and Foretellings, the White Tower still exists after the battle is complete. There wouldn't be a White Tower if the Power completely disappeared.

 

78Warlock, I thought it was pretty clear that the oddity of Aviendha's babies is that they touch the True Source at all times--even when asleep.

 

Yes I believe that also. It was just a "what if.." thought.

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Thanks, Mashiara! Great theories.

 

Even if Fain doesn't end up getting locked in with the DO, I still think there must be some kind of direct confrontation between Fain and the DO. It may be brief, but it's got to be there somewhere. There's just too much foreshadowing for that not to happen. I like the idea that the DO may attempt to re-taint saidin (or saidar, or both), but the flow of the taint gets redirected to Fain. That could be it. But I also have a feeling that whatever dooms Fain will also ultimately be the same thing that dooms the DO.

 

This book will be epic. EPIC, I tell you!

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we already know that rand can not use brute force nor direct contact with the do

Don't quote me, but I think it was said that Something has to touch him. Saidin is wild, untamed, hard to control. In my opinion, Saidin was the brute force that wouldn't work against the DO. The tranquil river of Saidar might be the answer. Something an Ashaman said in the ToM pg.170- "It's beautiful. I can feel Saidar. It's like I'm more complete now."

"Your're channeling it?"

"No. I don't need to. I can use it."

"Use it how?"

"I...It's hard to explain. The weaves are Saidin, but I seem to be able to strengthen them with Saidar."

So I believe when the two women in the Callandor circle with Rand, of whom one will have control of the circle, using Saidar weaves strengthened with Saidin, and Moiraine's new found FINN knowledge about how to defeat the DO, will be part of the DO's fall. If Mordeth went to Finnland and got some answers or help to kill the DO, why couldn't Moiraine? We know she got three answers also. If Saidin itself was powerful enough on its own to at least imprison the DO for X amount of years, even if an imperfect seal, then Saidar and Saidin mixed should be enough. Or maybe the TruePower will hold the DO still, "stop squirming around Shai'tan while I fix this!", while Saidar/Saidin heals the bore in the Seal. Or maybe they all hold hands and sing Kum-ba-ya and everyone just gets along.

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Ok so I'm new to this blogging thing, but to me this story has kind of a Matrix theme to it. Bear with me, so Fain kills the reaiming Forsaken and finally shows his true power. Seeing this, Rand realizes that he cannot defeat Fain all by himself and asks Perrin, Matt, Alivia, Nyn, and Egwene accompany him to Shagul. When they get there Rand informs them of his plan to ask the aid of the DO.The others reject this plan at first, but then Rand convinces them all it is the only way to seal the DO and kill Fain. The DO agrees but states in order for them to work together they have to share bodies. So Rand breaks the seals, the DO enters Rand's body and together they defeat Fain. Now Alivia kills Rand in his weakend state before the DO can fully take over Rand's body and destroy the Wheel and the Pattern forever. At this time Nyn and Egewene resurrect Rand and together they reseal the DO in his prison forever. I know it is a little out there but that is my take from the story so far.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Fain say that he wanted to kill the DO? Anyway, it seems that he wants to confront him, so I like the idea of Fain actually breaking the Seals. And I like very much the idea of him attracting the DO's power, helping Rand to act in result - it could be really exciting.

 

Who would think that all about Fain should be that obvious... At least now I see that we must treat him seriously - Mordeth sought to destroy the DO and nothing changed about it. From now on I almost pity the DO...

 

As to the disappearance of the Power some of you are pondering here. Maybe it's not only the technology which will replace it with time. If my memory serves, Jordan said in an interview something along the line that the appearance of new Talents in this Age is very telling and that there will be more and more of Mins, Hurins etc. Wolfbrothers existed before the AoL. maybe not Power-related Talents show up when the Power decreases.

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Min had a viewing of Rand and Moridin both lying dead... wouldn't that be a result of Fain's interferance? That has always been a thought of mine. As for Rand's new hand.... wouldn't it be made by Perrin in a ring with Asha man and Aes Sedai like how he made his new hammer??

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