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It Works in Theory: "No man can stand in the Shadow so long that he cannot find the Light again"


hazelkrs1

Cheers, tenacious transients of Dragonmount! Welcome to another weekly installment of "It Works in Theory," Dragonmount's theory blog headed by none other than myself. I've been looking forward to covering the topic of this week's blog for quite some time, so without further ado...actually, let's have a little more ado with our disclaimer:

 

WARNING!!! Spoiler Alert!!! WARNING!!!

 

This blog is based on theories that will include facts and material from the latest books in the series, so if you have not read through Towers of Midnight, continue reading at your own risk! The contents of "It Works in Theory" have been gathered, formulated, and written under extreme pressure and should be considered extremely volatile, highly flammable, and very likely to incite serious fervor and debate. Never puncture or incinerate the blog, and do not expose it to prolonged sunlight or store it in temperatures exceeding zero Kelvin.

 

Alright, so this week's blog is going to take a slightly different approach, but I have a good feeling many will still be excited about the subject matter. We are going to be discussing the Forsaken, particularly their relation to a famous line repeated a few times throughout the series, beginning in the very first book:

 

The Eye of the World

Chapter 47, "More Tales of the Wheel"

 

No man can stand in the Shadow so long that he cannot find the Light again.

 

This quote has been bandied about many times, and it very well could be foreshadowing for an event that happens in the next book, The Great Hunt. Near the end we find out that Lord Ingtar, a Shienaran warrior from House Shinowa, is actually a Darkfriend moments before he sacrifices himself to help save Rand and hopefully redeem his soul somewhat for the dark deeds he has committed. Indeed, he even mentions this line right before charging out to meet the Seanchan and crying out "The Light, and Shinowa!" a bunch of times (I always loved that battle cry; it's almost like he throws in "and Shinowa" as an afterthought). For now, though, let's go ahead and assume the quote might be foreshadowing a much bigger event: the redemption of one, or possibly more than one, of the Forsaken.

 

We'll examine them one by one, and speculate as to the likelihood that they will turn back to the Light in the last book, or would have if they were still alive. To simplify things somewhat, we'll base the likelihood they redeem themselves on a scale of 1-10, 1 being there's no way they turn back, 10 being they're assured to rejoin the forces of the Light. I'm not going to include any more quotes, since I don't want to strain my readers' eyes too much, and because much of this hypothesizing comes from Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson quotes as well as The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, alongside characterizations of them gained throughout the entire series.

 

Aginor (AKA Osan'gar, AKA Dashiva)

Age of Legends name: Ishar Morrad Chuain

Age of Legends occupation: Biological Scientist

 

Aginor was both brilliant and extremely powerful in the One Power, being lower in strength only to Lews Therin Telamon and Ishamael, and possibly Lanfear. He chose to turn to the Shadow because his interest in experimenting with animals was discouraged by the forces of the Light; it was only after turning to the Dark One that he was able to begin to create Shadowspawn. His creations include Trollocs, Myrddraal, Gholam, Jimura, Draghkar, and others. One of the first of the Forsaken to be released from the Bore, he was also one of the first to be killed when he confronted Rand at the Eye of the World. He was resurrected again, only to be vaporized by Callandor at the cleansing of saidin in Winter's Heart.

 

He doesn't have the most rock-solid reason for originally joining the Shadow, but at the same time, his intentions weren't exactly noble either. He doesn't strike me as particularly sadistic; he does what he does out of his love to seek out new discoveries. They are discoveries that have the potential to kill millions of men, true, but hey, all in the name of science, right?! If given the choice, I doubt he'd ever relinquish his love for the dark side of research, and it's doubtful it will ever be considered kosher to experiment on animals in Randland. I know Bela wouldn't allow it.

 

Verdict: 2 out of 10

 

Balthamel (AKA Aran'gar, AKA Halima)

 

Age of Legends name: Eval Ramman

Age of Legends occupation: Historian

 

Balthamel was also one of the first Forsaken we meet on screen and suffers an even more embarrassing death at the hands of the Green Man, Someshta, when he's crushed to death. He was drawn to the Shadow simply for the promise of immortality, which is somewhat amusing considering he dies more than most characters in the books. He is reputed to have a great temper; in fact, it was this temper which is said to be the reason he didn't achieve an honorary third name.

 

As Eval Ramman, he was a womanizer and was known for being a gambler. When he is transmigrated into a female body known as Aran'gar (using Halima as his/her alias), his cruelty and fickleness shine. Generally speaking, those who gamble like to play the odds, so it is possible that under the right circumstances he would chance the Great Lord of the Dark's wrath and turn back to the Light. That being said, his temper and unpredictable nature make it unlikely he would stay in everyone's good graces that long.

 

Verdict: 3 out of 10

 

Sammael (AKA Lord Brend, AKA Mashadar meat)

 

Age of Legends name: Tel Janin Aellinsar

Age of Legends occupation: Athlete, Sportsman

 

Sammael is the jock of the Forsaken. He prides himself on his physical prowess (he is one of the best swordsmen who ever lived) and keeps his frame well sculpted so he can admire his glutes in the mirror. His main reason for turning to the Shadow was his hatred of Lews Therin. Considering himself to be one of Lews Therin's chief rivals, it's very doubtful he'd ever consider rejoining the Light with Lews Therin still on that side. It's also somewhat amusing that all his training and formidable physical gift meant nothing when it came to escaping Mashadar. I really don't think Sammael is smart enough to realize it might have been best to join the Light.

 

Verdict: 1 out of 10

 

Be'lal (AKA High Lord Samon)

 

Age of Legends name: Duram Laddel Cham

Age of Legends occupation: Lawyer

 

We can probably stop right there; everyone knows being a lawyer is one of the seven deadly sins. Just to go through the motions, though... He was known as the Netweaver for his ability to manipulate situations and create finespun webs of deceit and malice. Usually, someone who thinks he is especially skilled at manipulation thinks he can plan for anything; we saw in The Dragon Reborn that Be'lal was drastically wrong in his preparations and eats balefire for it. Even were he to choose to switch to the forces of Light, he most likely wouldn't be truly committing anyway and also wouldn't be trusted.

 

Verdict: 1 out of 10

 

Mesaana (AKA Danelle Sedai)

 

Age of Legends name: Saine Tarasind

Age of Legends occupation: Teacher

 

Mesaana is unique among the Forsaken in being the only one who wasn't a remarkable standout in her field. She was rated average and assigned to a teaching job even though she preferred more of a research position. This constant feeling of being undervalued helped lead her to the Shadow; she wanted revenge on those who doubted her ability. She taught propaganda to young students in order to turn them against their society and their parents. If she still had a fully functioning brain, she would be one of the least likely candidates to willingly turn back to the Light, but it's possible that after many simple lessons, she might learn to stop drooling over herself long enough to grasp that "being nice is good."

 

Verdict: 4 out of 10

 

Semirhage (AKA Anath Dorje, Tuon's Truthspeaker)

 

Age of Legends name: Nemene Damendar Boann

Age of Legends occupation: Physician, Restorer

 

Now this one is one bad mamma jamma. She is one of the Forsaken I can look at and easily guess she was evil long before turning to the Shadow. A particularly cruel sadist, she found her calling in the position of Restorer because it gave her such great opportunity to practice her wicked experiments on willing patients. She brags of how much she has learned of the ability to get anyone to do her bidding if enough pain is enacted. When she is discovered to be committing these atrocities, she is left with either the choice between criminal binding or being severed from the Source; she promptly chooses to roll with the Dark One. Of all the Forsaken, I feel she comes closest to delivering the biggest blow to the forces of Light. Had she succeeded in forcing Rand to kill Min in The Gathering Storm, it's very likely he would have been unable to prevent his own descent into madness afterwards and the Light would have lost.

 

Verdict: 1 out of 10. Ain't no way.

 

Rahvin (AKA Lord Gaebril)

 

Age of Legends name: Ared Mosinel

Age of Legends occupation: Military General, Governor

 

Rahvin is considered another master manipulator, known for using compulsion subtly but often to ensure he has complete control of the situation. He has a weakness for self-centerdness, though, and seems over-confident in his abilities to control everything around him. He is similar to Be'lal in that I doubt either one could ever truly be sincere in trying to turn back to the Light. Then again, he does seem more prone to panic than Be'lal, and might do whatever he can to keep from being killed.

 

Verdict: 2 out of 10.

 

Demandred (AKA King Rhoedran--okay, maybe that's not confirmed yet, but really, it's kind of the only one that would make sense)

 

Age of Legends name: Barid Bel Medar

Age of Legends occupation: High ranking public official, General

 

Demandred had the extremely bad luck of being born in the same age as Lews Therin Telamon. Were it not for the Dragon, Demandred would have been the most prominent, most powerful figure in the Age of Legends. Born literally one day after Lews Therin, no matter what he accomplished in life, Lews Therin was always there doing it better. His jealousy grew into something so much more than the common variety experienced by the masses; it was the most bitter, intense rivalry that itself ended up pushing Demandred to the Shadow. He also seems to have a bigger gripe than even Sammael, and he's still around to possibly be the one who can help take down the Dragon Reborn.

 

He's done a much better job of staying in hiding than many of the other Forsaken, and thus has been able to build his plans for longer and set who knows how many dreadful gambits in motion. I suspect we will be seeing a lot from him in the last book. Besides the fact that there really wouldn't be enough time for him to turn back now, I think Demandred's hatred for Lews Therin is so deep-seated he will never be able to turn away from the Shadow.

 

Verdict: 1 out of 10

 

Moghedien (AKA Gyldin, AKA Marigan, AKA one of Moridin's cour'souvra bondees, AKA Shaidar Haran's plaything)

 

Age of Legends name: Lillen Moiral

Age of Legends occupation: "Advisor for Investments" (basically a Wall Street Trader)

 

Ah, the Spider. She is an interesting one because she has gone through the largest metamorphosis of any of the Forsaken. We all know she started out as extremely cautious; she only acted when she felt completely safe from any recourse. Somewhere along the line, though, Nyneave happened. The level to which Nyneave completely owned Moghedien, forcing her to train powerful channelers on the side of the Light, completely flipped Moghedien's world upside down. Once she was freed, she still had to answer for her ineptitude and became one of Moridin's mindtrapped semi-slaves.

 

Now that she isn't quite so timid, you get a sense she is much more quick to panic, quicker to act, and much more desperate. This is demonstrated by her attack on Nyneave in A Crown of Swords. I feel that desperation actually works against the likelihood she'll turn to the Light; even if she thought there was a chance she might be captured again, she would be sure to flip out and try to take out as many as she could with her as she died.

 

Verdict: 3 out of 10

 

Asmodean (AKA Jasin Natael)

 

Age of Legends name: Joar Addam Nesossin

Age of Legends occupation: Composer, Musician

 

This male Forsaken had by far the strangest reason for turning to the Shadow. He grew up a child prodigy, and many around the world expected great things from him, seeing his potential. He didn't quite fulfill this potential, though, and this left a bad taste in his mouth. When given the opportunity to gain immortality through linking with the Dark One, Asmodean accepted, thinking that with more time he could end up fully realizing his potential.

 

He was beaten in the confrontation with Rand al'Thor in The Shadow Rising and bound by Lanfear in order to deliver to Rand the perfect tutor. Once captured, however, it became obvious that the evil that existed in Asmodean in no way compared to the evil inside the likes of Semirhage. I couldn't find the quote amidst all the "who killed Asmodean" questions for the author, but I do remember hearing that Robert Jordan confirmed that Asmodean had indeed turned towards and was walking in the Light.

 

Verdict: 9 out of 10 to play it safe

 

Graendal (AKA Lady Basene)

 

Age of Legends name: Kamarile Maradim Nindar

Age of Legends occupation: Psychologist

 

How very fitting for us to next visit (Spoiler Alert!) Asmodean's killer. Graendal held an impressive position in the Age of Legends; she was world-renowned for her ability to cure madness of the mind. Before she turned to the Shadow, she lived a very ascetic type of lifestyle, preferring modesty and simplicity over extravagance. Something clicked inside Graendal, however, and she soon abandoned all notions of conservatism or modesty and filled the gap with extreme hedonism.

 

Lately, though, she's had a lot go against her. Plans of hers have fallen apart left and right, and it's clear that the Dark One and Shaidar Haran are not happy with her. I could actually see her coming back to the Light if given the chance, both because she's desperate and because whatever shifted her viewpoint the first time might just shift back.

 

Verdict: 6 out of 10

 

Lanfear (AKA Daughter of the Night, AKA Selene, AKA Cyndane, AKA Silvie, AKA Keille Shaogi)

 

Age of Legends name: Mierin Eronaile

Age of Legends occupation: Researcher

 

And we start coming to the end of the list, not quite rounding it out with Lanfear, considered one of the most vile Forsaken, and the most attractive as well. One of the original members of the team that drilled open the Bore, she has had a central role in storylines throughout the series. It is assumed she died in the land of the 'Finns and was transmigrated into the body of Cyndane. Her reason for joining the Shadow is maybe one of the most classic themes in literature: "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." She was intimately involved with Lews Therin at one point before he broke off their relationship.

 

Many have actually speculated that Lanfear will be one of the Forsaken to betray the Great Lord of the Dark and turn to the Light. The big reason for a lot of this conjecture is the epilogue in Towers of Midnight, in which we see Rand dreaming about "Mierin" being in trouble. Personally, I just think this is another gambit of hers. She's seemed to change her way of thinking concerning Lews Therin, and would much rather be the one who gets to kill him than try and get him back with her again. It's still a possibility, though.

 

Verdict: 4 out of 10

 

And then we finally come to the Nae'blis...

 

Ishamael (AKA Ba'alzamon, AKA Moridin, AKA Heartfang)

 

Age of Legends name: Elan Morin Tedronai

Age of Legends occupation: Philosopher, Author

 

The baddest of the bad, the darkest of the dark, the Nae'blis, the maddest of the mad, the Betrayer of Hope himself. If Rand al'Thor is the Champion of the Light, then Moridin is almost assuredly the Champion of the Dark. Ishamael has been poised to be the Shadow's best chance of foiling the Dragon Reborn the whole series, and in his mind for the entire infinite history of the Wheel of Time, so there's no chance he converts to the forces of the Light, right?

 

Not so fast, Mr. Hotfoot. Let's take a second to look this over. It appears the main reason Ishamael first turned to the Shadow (and he was the first by the way) was an existential quandary. Unlike many of his peers, he saw no glory or benefit in the promise of immortality. Instead, he was actually searching for an end to what he thought was a cosmic joke being played on all the citizens of the world of the Wheel of Time. Endless turnings of the wheel with no differences, no growth, no lessons learned--all that held no interest for Ishamael.

 

Incidentally, Rand himself actually experiences this same internal conflict during the famous scene "Veins of Gold" in The Gathering Storm. He almost comes to the same conclusion his dark counterpart comes to, but at the last second has a sudden epiphany of what makes it all worth it: love. What does this have to do with Ishamael? Remember, there is a very real link between the two, and foreshadowing has hinted of either a merger or swap between the two since the very first book. During said transfer of souls and/or minds, maybe Ishamael will suddenly be able to see what he's been missing out on all these millenia. This fresh new perspective helping Ishamael to return to the Light might even be one of the keys to helping the forces of Light win.

 

Verdict: 8 out of 10

 

Alright, folks, 'till next time! As always, comment and tell me what you think. If you have any ideas for good theories for us to potentially discuss, please send me a PM or email me at hazelkrs110@hotmail.com.




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@crusader12 ironically with this book, nothing is truly separated :) and i agree :) i dont see the cleaning as using mashadar, but i can see that rand chose to do it at aridhol to push the taint from saidin, onto mashadar, thus destroying it from what we know, aside from the sliver that fain now has...

 

tho im less convinced that the DO is more powerful then mashadar... mashadar was trapped and not allowed to grow... now it isnt... the DO is just considerably larger :) and the size, gives it more influence :)

 

back on topic: we will have to wait for AMOL, but i still think that lanfear and moraine will be the two using calandor with rand :) they've played nearly identical roles, but on the different side of the brocada divide :) both were constantly around rand, moraine was obvious, lanfear hidden... moraine pushing for rand to go good, lanfear, shadow... moraine got trapped in finnland, lanfear trapped by the mindtrap... i could go on :)

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The very fact that Lanfear is mindtrapped makes it very unlikely that she would be allowed to turn back to the light, unless Moridin turns back himself. Moiraine probably isn't strong enough in the Power anymore to be as useful, but this may not mean much when it comes to wielding Callandor. Either way, it seems like Rand has already picked who he wants wielding Callandor with him. Alivia is pretty much a definite, because Rand thinks it will be essential that she's there to help him die. The only way Nyneave doesn't end up in the circle with him is if she somehow gets sidetracked by Lan's death or gets captured or something.

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That being said, this is definitely a separate topic from the one proposed here. Maybe a mod should start a new thread and move these comments there?

 

Any of you are more than welcome to start a separate thread about that topic in our General Wheel of Time Discussion forum.

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#despothera, moraine is one of the weakest, but she did bring an angreal out of finnland, that makes her (one of) the most powerful out there... her power without the bracelet is far lower then before, but with, she's far higher... im assuming, she's as powerful with it, as lanfear was before her "death" :) and thereby, the duality of the characters continues(theyve virtually switched power levels)...

 

and with moraines freeing, my theory, is that lanfear will get freed from her mindtrap too :) else, the whole duality since book 2 even, is broken, and thereby, why have it? i dont see that happening :)

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I can see your point about Lanfear, maybe Rand pulls a Godmode moment and severs whatever connection Lanfear has to the cour'souvra.

 

As for Moiraine, if I'm not mistaken you're unable to use other angreal when using a sa'angreal. That's how it was for Nyneave during the cleansing. Once again though, the level of Power she can normally channel might not have anything to do with who would qualify to be in the circle with Rand. Even so, I still feel Moiraine was a major character in the first few books, but at this point her role has changed. She has more to lose than ever now that she's taken Tom as her lover. Plus she was never necessarily one for leading the vanguard into battle, her role always called more for sage advice and counsel. She'll be able to give that to Rand without being one of those encircled with him.

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when mat's link with the dagger was severed, they used a circle, and suian used an angreal :) that leads me to believe that moraine should be able to use her angreal, and rand, calandor, without a problem :)

 

tho i would agree, that you can probably only use one angreal at a time :) but when in a circle, each member can have one :)

 

and you're right... moraine was always a reluctant warrior(so was lanfear, go figure)... but, she was also a pillar to hold rand up :) as was lanfear in her own way(finding a teacher, proding the way he needed to go, etc)

 

and i dont know if lanfears mindtrap will be severed by rand or moridin, or someone else entirely... will have to wait and see :)

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Just a comment on who Demandred might be. Remember it is commented by one of the other forsaken that he is building his own army, in secret, somewhere. Also his jealousy towards Lews Therin, but also his leadership over the Hundred Companions. Recall that, in Rand's head, Lews Therin usually goes nuts when one of the forsaken appear (that's how he recognized Semirhage). The same thing happened when he first saw Mazrim Taim.

 

Mazrim Taim as Demandred is confirmed elsewhere. When the Red Ajah goes to the Black Tower to bond Asha'man, Taim laughs and exclaims "Let the Lord of Chaos Reign". This is what Moridin tells the forsaken to do, let Rand live, wound him, sow chaos, all so that Rand would become hardened and crack unnder the pressure.

 

Also recall Demandred's jealousy of the Hundred Companions, well he's building his own at the Black Tower. That's his army.

 

There is a possible disclaimer to Demandred being Mazrim Taim. Dashiva and the other rogue Asha'man were given the order to kill Rand by both Mazrim Taim and Demandred. This could imply they not being the same. However, I believe this is just another Machiavellian approach to impress upon the rogue Asha'man to kill Rand (to prevent himm from cleansing Saidin).

 

:aessedai:

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@Despothera: you can't use a ter'angreal with an angreal or sa'angreal. Nynaeve didn't use her angreal when channeling with Rand linked to Callandor because "I don't suppose I need an angreal if I'm going to be using the most powerfull sa'angreal ever made"--Nynaeve, WH ch 35 With the Choedan Kal

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She (Moiraine) is the only AS that I think he really trusts. She will probably be able to provide significant information to the Tower AS concerning Rands plans and the verasity of them. I think Moridin's more recent despondancy will probably result in him freeing Lanfear. I think Ishy returning to the light is a real possibility. I think in some way the bond Rand has had with him has given him a perspective that he lacked before in all their confrontations and may be largely responsible for his new found "apathy" as he has been re-examining his choices.

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Ok Rand figured out that the taint on sadin was focused in Shadar logath buy channeling there, "he could feel the taint pulsing in the stones beneath his boots as well as in sadin." that is why he cleansed sadin there. And here is something i have wondered if the backlash for sealing the DO on sadin" the taint" affected The Ways now that sadin is cleansed are The Ways green and alive again? As far as one of the forsaken comming back to the light. Asmodean, I believe, is one of a couple that will turn back to the light. Face it Rand did not harm Asmodean, Lanfear is the one who shielded him, and Must have beenone of the Forsaken who killed him.

 

As for Moridin he does share a bond with Rand could some of the love in Rands heart affect Moridin and give him the remorse...... Possibly.

 

Lanfear comming back to the light......If Rand promises her what she wants then a good possibility as well as her asking Rand for help to be free of Moridin. Yet again another possibility to her her come back to the light.

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you'll remember with rands fight with asmodean in rhuidean, theyre both connected to the chodenkal, and, ran also connects to his fat little man angreal...

 

it is possible to connect to two at once, they are just so uncommon its unlikely that anyone has two.

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@aetherstorm ive often considered that... wether the cleansing would have also cleansed the ways... we havent seen anyone enter the ways for a LONG time... i think its quite likely that they are...

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I remember it being said that the ways were affected when sadin became tainted. But that is one of the things we may yet learn in AMOL. The wait on the book is killing me

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Just a couple of quick things: I don't want to reopen this debate lol, but the Taint wasn't focused in Shadar Logoth. What Rand felt was the Taint pulsing against Mashadar, both had a beat and counterbeat, pulsing in rhythm with one another. The idea seems to be that while Mashadar was also evil, it was still completely the polar opposite of the evil of the Dark One so both waves kind of canceled each other out. I talk about it more in depth in my blog from the week after this one: Mashadar: The Wheel Of Time's All-Purpose Cleanser?.

 

Also, I don't believe I remember saying that a ter'angreal could be used in conjuction with an angreal or sa'ngreal. What happened with the little fat man angreal is somewhat strange though, I'll admit.

 

As for Taim being Demandred, both Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson have confirmed many times that this theory is incorrect, that Taim is NOT Demandred. I'm thinking about writing a write-up on who Demandred might be.

 

One more thing: Lanfear didn't kill Asmodean. It was Graendal. This was confirmed in the glossary of The Gathering Storm I believe, either that one or Towers of Midnight. If you use some clever sleuthwork (hint: think like Sherlock Holmes :wink:) you will be able to arrive at this conclusion.

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this is true... graendal, not lanfear :) confirmed twice in ToM, and once in the glossary... once by moridin, once by shadar haran

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a little late, but I just thought of it after the fact. since the cleansing is being discussed, the male forsaken no longer need their connection to the DO to filter the taint. unlikely that this will play much of a role in anybody coming back, the only person who relied on said link (up until about two years ago) was Ishy...the rest of the lazy fools were napping. still, I didn't see it mentioned in the theory, or the comments, so I figured I'd toss it out there.

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Has anyone dealt with what the Cour'souvra actually is? It seems like ultimate compulsion with the free will left to them, if that makes any sense. Possibly compulsion on the Brain Stem? I actually find that Moridin is the closest second to Asmodian on turning to the Light. Once Moridin is given hope logically, than he will become a Champion of the Light.

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@sdboka

 

Shadar Haran tells Greandal that the opportunity/job to hurt Rand had been given to another. Then in one of the very last scenes in the book we see Cyndane asking Rand/Lews to save her? Really?

 

So she is the one that is given the job to hurt him right?

 

Can Sanderson really afford to make it that obvious? .. more importantly, would RJ really have come up with such an obvious ploy? To me I think that if this is what happened, then there will be a twist to it, something along the lines of Cyndane doing this to trick Lews/Rand, but since it is so obvious we will be shown in a POV that she it's not her intention at all and she plans to use the opportunity as a gambit to get free of her mindtrap and then try to defeat the Great Lord and usurp his power?

 

Of course, since it is so obvious and the 'damsel in distress' seemed just to convenient... this by itself suggests to me that it really is the truth (or close enough to it). Mierin might not regret what she has done, but if she was subjected to torture then she would regret doing things that lead to her pain.

 

Of course then there is the whole "why is she being tortured anyway?" I mean she is already mintrapped. So I see there as only being two reasons for teh torture.

 

1. Torturing is something that happens daily to remind her that she is a slave.

2. They might be torturing her and "accidentally" there was a chance for her to somehow get that message to Rand/Lews. Meaning that they tortured her in order to make her send that plea for help.

 

 

Now as for Mierin's use as far as the bore goes. You people mention here that she would have had no idea of what power awaited her on the other side. But you fail to address the actual drilling. No matter what type of power was on the other side, if she understood the exact mechanics of how you drill a hole in the pattern and into the prison, then it is very likely that she would have ben able to figure out how to reseal the the hole.

 

slaying the great lord however is a ridiculous thing to imagine, even one of the characters that understands the theory best in the book says so.

 

RJ says that the Great Lord was not the True Power or the taint. Yet in the same letter he goes on saying that the True Power and the taint are aspects of the Great Lord.

 

Maybe to best understand what he Great Lord is, we need to first understand what he isn't? However since that in itself is not conclusive we can only go by what RJ said in these letters and what the plot his hinting at in the book.

 

If yo imagine Mashadar being the evil that was left behind after all those people killed each other... it was the pattern itself congregating around that wrongness. Then we apply this train of thought to The Great Lord and the True Power. If the great Lord isn't the True Power but the True Power is part of the Great Lord, then the Great Lord would himself be the will? He would be the manifest of "evil"... or rather the manifestation of what is imprisoned within the bore.

 

This of course means that there is no way in .... that Rand or anyone can ever kill the Great Lord. But if we imagine the Great Lord reaching out into the bore itself then we wouldn't be able to reseal it as long as his True Source was there. This is where Mashadar and Fain comes into play. Mashadar is just an angry part of the pattern... See it as a cork... now shove that cork into the bottleneck of the prison. The struggle itself as well as all other needed aspects then make the 'cork' melt and become part of the pattern again.

 

And that is how you seal it.

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Yo me its quite patent that Miern Lanfear whatever will go to the Light just in pure desperateness as shown in ToM. Her fierce 'Berelain Love' for Rand may overcome her evilness... Who knows my vote is 10/10

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