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WoT If...the Black Tower Saves Caemlyn?


Mashiara Sedai

Hello again. Welcome to another edition of "WoT If?". This week's topic might be a bit out there, but bear with me. I'll explain the method to my madness.

 

Spoiler warning! This will include content from many books in the series, including Towers of Midnight, and speculation about A Memory of Light. Please read at your own risk.

 

So, the timeline of The Gathering Storm and Towers of Midnight is a little difficult to get a handle on. Luckily, there are excellent online resources that figure out the timeline of the whole series. On Theoryland.com, I found a tentative timeline for Towers of Midnight by the user morat'corlm. This helps explain where everyone is during each scene along the main timeline.

 

According to morat'corlm's research, there is a nine day gap between Androl pleading with Pevara for help (Towers of Midnight, Chapter 56, "Something Wrong") and Mat preparing to leave for the Tower of Ghenjei (Towers of Midnight, Chapter 52, "Boots").

 

This gap seems plausible for the battle for the Black Tower. After Androl asks Pevara for assistance, I don't think they'll just wait around day after day. Pevara is the type to act. When she listens to Androl, I think she and the unturned Aes Sedai and Asha'man will begin their escape or attack (since the dreamspike only negates Traveling/Skimming weaves) the next day. Also, Myrelle's group of Salidar Aes Sedai is still camped outside the Black Tower, as far as we know. Once attack channeling begins inside the grounds, I'm sure they will come and help fight.

 

Here's a note on the dreamspike. Mesaana thinks to herself:

 

Towers of Midnight

Chapter 37, "Darkness in the Tower"

 

…it stopped all forms of Traveling in or out of the area except for those allowed.

 

 

What exactly does "except for those allowed" mean? Is the one who activates the dreamspike able to pick and choose who can enter the area? When Graendal activates hers against Perrin, is she still able to Travel into the area? I would assume so, based on Mesaana's statement. But what if the dreamspike's maker, or original user, is currently reborn and in the Black Tower? Would they still have access to Traveling within the area? I think it's possible. My first thought would also be that Androl has some connection to the dreamspike, since he's so skilled with Gateways. But we've already been shown that even his Gateways don't work. However, there could be another person there who is "allowed", even if by accident, to use Traveling within the dreamspike's perimeter.

 

What does all of this have to do with saving Caemlyn? Well, after the nine day gap, there's still another eight days or so before Caemlyn begins to burn. That's plenty of time for the surviving Asha'man to come to the aid of the city.

 

There's been a lead up to a fight between the Light and Shadow factions within the Black Tower for at least the past three books. Logain, most assume, will lead the Light side, with Taim leading the Shadow. However, there aren't too many Light characters still at the Black Tower since Logain says:

 

Knife of Dreams

Chapter 18, "News for the Dragon"

 

"More than half the Black Tower is in Arad Doman and Illian. I sent all the men with bonded Aes Sedai except those here, as you ordered."

 

And a little later in the same chapter, Logain talks of Taim's "cronies":

 

"There are forty-one of those now, by the way. He's given over a dozen men the Dragon pin in the past few days, and he has above fifty more in his 'special' classes, most of them just recruited lately. He's planning something, and I doubt you'll like it."

 

 

"But he's made a Tower of his own hidden inside the Black Tower, and the men in it are loyal to him, not you."

 

This information isn't surprising. We've known for a long time that Taim is up to no good. So, with most of the men at the Black Tower loyal to Taim, not Rand—or even Logain—those Asha'man and Aes Sedai trapped inside are in pretty rough shape.

 

During that same scene, Rand admits he doesn't have time to deal with Taim at the moment, and Verin says:

 

"Taim very likely will have to wait on the Last Battle, whatever he's about."

 

Knowing what we know about Verin and her inability to divulge plots within the Shadow, I think we can assume the opposite is true. That is, Taim will have to act before the Last Battle, so the Asha'man can't help the Light. The Asha'man and Aes Seadi are prisoners in the Black Tower, trapped there by the dreamspike, being picked off one by one and turned to the Shadow by the 13x13 method.

 

During Towers of Midnight, Rand realizes he can't Travel to the Black Tower, so the dreamspike is still active. This is the day before he wants to go to Merrilor, the same day Olver opens Verin's letter.

 

Here's the quote:

 

Towers of Midnight

Chapter 51, "A Testing"

 

"I have been unable to Travel there [black Tower]," Rand said. "That implies great trouble, worse than I had feared. Use this weave. It can disguise you. Travel to a place a day's ride outside, and ride in, hiding yourself. See what you can discover. Help if you can, and when you find Logain and those loyal to him, deliver him a message for me."

 

However, we don't know why the dreamspike is still active. Perhaps it's being used by the survivors to make a place of safety for their wives and families. I don't think it necessarily implies that there's still trouble going on there. This quote also implies that Logain is already at the Black Tower. The last we actually saw of him was during the prologue of The Gathering Storm.

 

Mezar Kurin seems to be another 13x13 turned Asha'man. When Logain's Asha'man talk about Mezar, they say his memories are still present, but something is wrong with his manner, with his eyes, with his smile. This is the same way Bashere responds to Taim in Lord of Chaos, Chapter 2, "The New Arrival". Mezar sends along a message from Logain, but is it true or not?

 

Towers of Midnight

Chapter 56, "Something Wrong"

 

When Mezar had returned a few days back—explaining that Logain was well and that all would soon be resolved with Taim—Androl had begun to hope that there was a way out of this mess. But something had seemed off about the man. … And now Mezar—once fiercely loyal to Logain—was spending his time with Coteren and Taim's other lackeys.

 

Was Mezar turned before his return to the Black Tower or after his arrival? If before, perhaps more of Logain's or Rand's loyal Asha'man were turned, even those sent to Illian or Arad Doman. Either way, I'm sure they have all of Mezar's information about Rand and Logain's current whereabouts and some of their plans.

 

Since Logain disappeared from Rand's group, where is he, if not at the Black Tower? Perhaps he's doing a little recruiting of his own, to bolster his group before rushing in to take on Taim.

 

Perrin lends Grady's Gateway abilities to Mat so he can get to the Tower of Ghenjei and back (Towers of Midnight, Chapter 53, "Gateways"). Mat will have at least one Asha'man to help battle the Shadowspawn and Darkfriends destroying Caemlyn. Since I predict the drama at the Black Tower will be finished, Grady can summon the survivors to come help. They have been inspected by Elayne and her guards, and have been made to know that they are on Andoran soil. I think they will feel a debt to help protect the capital.

 

I'll stop there; we'll save the details of the battles for another time. Please join us next week for the first half of a two week special on the Eye of the World.

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The Black Tower, Taim, the bonded AS / Asha'Man, Demandred? is probably one of the most exciting plot lines outside the main arc left in the series... It ties together everything the Shadow has been trying to accomplish since Ishy died in the Stone.

 

Cannot wait!

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So ToM is making us think that Mat will come to the rescue of Caemlyn and root out the shadow - but actually the Asha'man will be the ones to save the city.

Hmm, seems a bit familiar (Illian)...

 

Also, can the 13x13 be done with male channelers x myrdraal, or does it have to have females?

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There's been a lot of talk about Taim being a "new" Forsaken (dreadlord). But what if Taim himself was turned via the 13x13 method? If that's the case, when would that have happened? Certainly before he joined Rand. Perhaps RIGHT before he joined Rand.

 

I'm not actually sure this has any bearing on the current state of the plot. He's serving the DO either way, but if he was turned, and is not serving willingly, then perhaps he could be turned back...? And if he can be turned back, then couldn't all the other Asha'Man? Imagine the full and complete strength of a united Black Tower saving Caemlyn, then joining the Last Battle.

 

Maybe that will be Nynaeve's next big discovery. Da**it what the heck am I going to do with myself when this series is over?!?!

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This was exactly what I thought, wondering how to turn the 13x13d people back to the Light - that Nynaeve will figure it out. Or maybe Lanfear would share the information...

 

Only now did I realise that all those guys - i.e. Rand, Egwene etc - probably won't take part in the BT ultimate showdown. If so, there's a real glory awaiting Logain, and not only him! I hope to see Androl, Pevara and co. do something pretty awesome - epecially since they seem to be minority. I wonder what they intend to do... Therefore, if Taim is not simply Taim, he won't reveal his real identity there - or if he does, ho won't be defeated - as I don't see Logain facing Moridin, he's Rand's match obviously. So, maybe Taim's just Taim after all - a proxy at most. And, to fulfill Egwene's dream of Logain stepping over the Rand-like body, he could pose as Rand using the OP, as I saw someone suggest on the forums.

 

Well, they may still be fighitng as well, with Caemlyn burning in the meantime, thus still giving Rand and others from the FoM an opportunity to help.

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But what if Taim himself was turned via the 13x13 method?

 

That's what I'm implying. Since Bashere doesn't recognize him immediately, there must be something going on, besides the fact that he shaved his beard.

 

I think Taim is just Taim, turned by the 13x13 combo. As far as turning them back to the Light... I've heard theories that maybe the Ogier represent the Light the way Myrddraal represent the Shadow. 13 channelers and 13 Ogier? Maybe. Also, I think 13 male channelers would work just as well as women.

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That's what I'm implying. Since Bashere doesn't recognize him immediately, there must be something going on, besides the fact that he shaved his beard.

 

I think Taim is just Taim, turned by the 13x13 combo.

 

Yeah, this Bashere tip is important, but Taim has never shown such signs like Mezar has, has he? I mean, he has always acted in a normal, human manner, or have I misjudged him or overlooked some detail?

 

Perhaps the only other explanation for Bashere's confusion is Taim being Moridin after all, but I don't like the idea. Even if it was true and Rand was there to confront him, it just doesn't fit Egwene's dream and, therefore, Min's vision of Rand merging with the other guy and one of them dying - if Rand dies at some point in BT/Caemlyn events, it should be just him, Moridin staying alive (but of course this vision could be fulfilled later on, despite Rand's previous death, when they meet again and this time Moridin dies).

 

Summing up - I don't know... And this is exactly what the WoT is about and what makes me love it always more and more :)

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So many ideas to respond to!

 

I think Androl and Pevera may join up with all the male channelers (not yet Asha Man) and Aes Sedai and create circles of overwhelming power. By the way, if Logain is to do something of glory, why not be the leader of a freakin amazing gigantic circle that can only be pushed to the limits with more and more aditions of male channelers?

 

As for the dreamspike, only certain people being allowed to travel in and out (those who hold the key) I believe it is similar to a password. Maybe there is a way to figure out what it is. If so Ishmael/Moridid would be the one to figure it out considering his philosophic background. Obviously someone has the key and planted the spike there. Likely Moridid since when he gave the other one to Grandeal he told her "I have found only one other and it is being used elsewhere." So we assume that this is his plan. Androl is exceptional with gateways so maybe he will develop a talent of understanding Ter'Angreal and figure out how to manipulate the spike. Oh yes, and the one in control of the spike can pick and chose who enters. Grandeal had an internal discussion of this very idea when Moridid first gave it to her. She considered the ability to set up her own kingdom of safety that could keep out other forsaken until Moridid mentioned that he "knew the key to this one."

 

I'm not exactly sure about the timeline I think some of it could be a little confused. I believed this man Rand gave the ability to would follow his instructions of remaining hidden but showing up on the doorstep with interest and would reconoiter for Rand possibly being of service to Logain (if he is there yet.) Personally, I think that Logain IS doing some recruiting and that he will find a truck load including the other boys from the Two Rivers that were left behind because of age. Logain being more practical than Rand has been until lately, I believe that he will realize that every boy who can pick up a blade must be trained for the LB in order to win. In this case, every boy who can channel must like wise be recruited and trained.

 

As to the timeline and whether the battle has been fought (and won) yet or not, I am unsure though I admit it is possible and we will read about it in the beginning of next book as another hop, skip and a jump in the timeline. If it has already been fought and the dreamspike is still active (why Rand cannot Travel there) the say the good guys do win... They may still not realize what is blocking the Traveling. Even if they do know what it is, they would not know the key unless it was extracted from someone of knowledge. So unless they knew enough of TAR (doubtful since we have heard of no training in that area within the BT) I doubt they would know to move the spike much less carry it to someplace such as Dragon Mount to throw in the fire and destroy it.

 

Next, I agree that Grady and Mat could have a possible play at events in the BT. That is assuming that Grady does not come back to the prescribed spot as planned everyday to pick up Mat and take him back to his army on the outskirts of Camelyn.... If this happens, obviously they will see events going on in the city and battle to take place right away before even thinking of the BT even if Grady does feel an immense battle taking place there. If he does, will Grady

(A) go to the BT to find out what is going on?

(B) find Perrin and Rand etc to request help at Camelyn or both battles?

 

The comment about Verin saying Taim may have to wait and her ability to divulge secret plans of the Shadow... We have seen that Verin is excellent in doing just that! what about her diligent research in finding so many Black Ajah Aes Sedai? What about her intelligent deducement of the possible Forsaken hiding within the White Tower? What other assumptions and conclusions were stored in those little books she handed to Egwene? We only heard about the reference to the two chapters stated above and the translation book.

My point being why do we assume she is wrong? Maybe Taim is the "other person" given the ability to Travel in and out of the Dream Spike's command? Would he not escape if he and his cronies faced utter defeat at the BT? Would he not then pose another problem to deal with during and possibly after the LB? Would he seek his own greatness in the LB or possibly hang around until things settle after his magnificent failure? If so, would he not then try to become the next Forsaken if the others were killed for good or re-sealed within the bore? That would certainly pose a problem that had to be dealt with after the conclusion of the LB as Verin predicted.

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Metal Head, maybe you are right about Nynaeve's next discovery (how to turn the turned people back to normal.) But I do not think that Taim himself has been turned. If you pay attention to the description of the Asha Men at the BT that have been turned, they don't just seem different then their own normal, but different than the normality of any person. The "glazed look in the eyes," "smile that is a little off," "empty laughs." Taim has expressed plenty enough real (though evil) laughter and plenty enough real emotions. About Bashere not recognizing the man in Camelyn, if you recall, Bashere had never met the man personally before the war. And during the war especially with Taim channeling left and right, there is no way that Bashere could have possibly been close enough to Taim to have any clear recognition at a later time.

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About Bashere not recognizing the man in Camelyn, if you recall, Bashere had never met the man personally before the war. And during the war especially with Taim channeling left and right, there is no way that Bashere could have possibly been close enough to Taim to have any clear recognition at a later time.

 

Good point here, thanks for that.

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why not be the leader of a freakin amazing gigantic circle that can only be pushed to the limits with more and more aditions of male channelers?

 

That would be really cool to see an incredibly humongous circle. If all the Light-side characters link, they could easily take out Taim and his lackeys.

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I like how almost every forum topic comes back to Taim, Demandred, or Slayer - but that's OK because it's all relavent.

The leading theory on Taim (which I really like) is that Demandred is in the Borderlands. He ordered 13 black ajah sisters in Saldaea to turn Taim to the shadow, and those 13 are now with the borderlander army in the south.

And for the record, I HATE the theory that Taim = Moridin. Ishy died at the end of tDR, and first appeared as Moridin in aCoS. Taim has been up and about for the past 15 years; we've seen him while Ishy was and wasn't dead.

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I like how almost every forum topic comes back to Taim, Demandred, or Slayer - but that's OK because it's all relavent.

The leading theory on Taim (which I really like) is that Demandred is in the Borderlands. He ordered 13 black ajah sisters in Saldaea to turn Taim to the shadow, and those 13 are now with the borderlander army in the south.

And for the record, I HATE the theory that Taim = Moridin. Ishy died at the end of tDR, and first appeared as Moridin in aCoS. Taim has been up and about for the past 15 years; we've seen him while Ishy was and wasn't dead.

yea, taim is not moridin... however, i have heard theory that taim is actually ishameal's son... we know that ishy was able to get around before the releasing, and there are many physical similarities...

 

when people are turned, there are differences in how they look/act... taim doesnt have those... if someones turned, they become reckless, i wouldnt expect a turned, to become a darkfriend of any real authority...

 

and i believe that demandred is the king of murandy... he came from nowhere, and is close to the band... we havent seen much of him in either case...

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Metal Head, on , said:

 

But what if Taim himself was turned via the 13x13 method?

 

That's what I'm implying. Since Bashere doesn't recognize him immediately, there must be something going on, besides the fact that he shaved his beard.

 

I think Taim is just Taim, turned by the 13x13 combo. As far as turning them back to the Light... I've heard theories that maybe the Ogier represent the Light the way Myrddraal represent the Shadow. 13 channelers and 13 Ogier? Maybe. Also, I think 13 male channelers would work just as well as women.

 

 

My guess is it would also involve a form of linking between them. Since men can't link unless there's a woman for every two (going by memory here) it would need to be women, or at most a mix of 4 men and 9 women.

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