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Mat's old blood


Sabio
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Think I finally found something that may put to rest who Mat was in a past life and  explain why he was  so good with calvary.  I know many think he was a former ruler of Manethern.  But noticed under the Heart Guard it said:  Heroic Manethern calvary troops that Mat commanded against the Trollocs in an earlier  life. 

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Brigitte said that his Old Tongue speech was that of a High Lord of Manethern. And that companion piece of info is pretty conclusive :) 

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Think I finally found something that may put to rest who Mat was in a past life and  explain why he was  so good with calvary.  I know many think he was a former ruler of Manethern.  But noticed under the Heart Guard it said:  Heroic Manethern calvary troops that Mat commanded against the Trollocs in an earlier  life. 

 

Actually, if anything, saying it like that only further confirms that Mat is actually Aemon reborn.

We have never had direct confirmation that Mat is Aemon reborn, only that he is definitely of Aemon's bloodline.

What we have had confirmed though is that it definitely was Aemon's eyes he was looking through in that memory.

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When was it confirmed Mat was looking through Aemon eyes"

 

In a couple of different interviews about Mat's pre-Finn memories by both RJ and BS.

The questions asked specifically asked about the "Aemon memory" from tDR and it was always universally accepted that it was indeed Aemon's memory.

RJ was quite famous for correcting a question that had incorrect information or was leading.

 

Here's BS's answer from a twitter conversation:

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (6 JANUARY 2011)

At the 35% mark we have Mat speaking the Old Tongue for the first time, books ahead of him getting memories stuck in his head.
BRANDON SANDERSON
I've always found this a very curious event. Of the five Two Riversers, Mat's powers are the most subtly foreshadowed in the book.
BRANDON SANDERSON
Unless you count the short exchange between Lan and Perrin about wolves in a much earlier chapter.
KRIT PETTY
I thought that Mat's Old Tongue was a small way of RJ letting you think maybe Mat was the important one, not Rand.
BRANDON SANDERSON
Yes, I think you're right on that count. It was certainly meant to make us think.
LEE DAVIS
The speaking the Old Tongue is from his bloodline though, not his memories in that case, isn't it?
BRANDON SANDERSON
Yes, but it's still foreshadowing. He's the one who does it, not the others.
SLEEPINGHOUR
In The Eye of the World, is Mat remembering the Old Tongue from his own past life or from his ancestors?
TEREZ
Good question. He seems to have confirmed Old Blood for the Old Tongue, but the Aemon memory?
FELIX PAX
That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of AemonAemon's Old Tongue.
BRANDON SANDERSON
It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.
BRANDON SANDERSON
The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.
BRANDON SANDERSON (7 JANUARY)
"A metal tower?" Rand said. "I'll bet there's treasure inside," Mat said. "A thing like that must have been made to protect something..."
BRANDON SANDERSON
This is the start of Mat acting tainted, which always makes me sad. It will be a while before I can read him as himself again.
BRANDON SANDERSON
First time one of the boys thinks, "I wish [insert other boy] were here. He knows what to say to women" happens at the 48% mark.
BRANDON SANDERSON (10 JANUARY)
I love that in the scene in Four Kings, the fact that the innkeeper is thin seems almost as ill an omen as a flock of ravens.
BRANDON SANDERSON
I wonder if Mat wearing the scarf around his head here is foreshadowing intentionally, or by coincidence, of the scarf on his neck.
BRANDON SANDERSON
Either way, there's some other strong foreshadowing there of events in Towers of Midnight, though I won't say specifics to avoid spoilers.
ADAM DOWARD
I've been wondering for ages is Mat going to wear an eye patch? Or will he wear a strip of cloth like Gemmel's Grymauch?
BRANDON SANDERSON
RAFO.
BRANDON SANDERSON
Not sure what I think of the "start chapter, flashback to what has happened since last chapter" narrative style RJ prefers here.
BRANDON SANDERSON
I don't think he does it as much later. In these first books, he seems more worried about characters going chronologically off of each other.
BRANDON SANDERSON
Note that I do like flashbacks, and think that Chapter 33 is interesting structurally. I don't know if it fits just right, though.
BRANDON SANDERSON
A good point: Some note that the erratic timeline here does help reinforce the sense of sickness from Rand and Mat's growing paranoia.
BRANDON SANDERSON

Also, it's fun that Mat is getting paranoid and crazy because of the dagger—except when he's thinking about food or a nice bed.

 

 

If you re-read the memory sequence there are just too many things to discount the eyes Mat are looking through as being anyone but Aemon.

He calls the Archers his archers.

He describes HIS bannermen flying the Red Eagle over his head.

And we know from other accounts that Aemon lead Manetheren's armies himself and there is absolutely no doubt that the person whose eyes Mat was looking through was most certainly leading the armies.

 

No, it has never been debated or even questioned in the slightest that that particular memory was of anyone other than Aemon himself.

 

The debate has always been over whether Mat is Aemon reborn or just of his bloodline and like I said, that quote you found almost confirms that Mat is actually Aemon reborn and not just of his bloodline. 

Edited by Finnssss
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My orginial post was simply saying that seemed to me shows Mat wasn't Aemon.  Even with what you just posted we never get a diffinitve yes or no if he was Aemon reborn.  In the companion under Mat and Aemon it isn't mentioned, so that's no help.  It just says this is an old blood memory under the Heartguard entry.   I never said Mat might not be someone of Aemon's bloodline, my guess he is he has to be of Aemon bloodline.  It's just all we really have is "Heroic Manethern calvary troops that Mat commanded against the Trollocs in an earlier  life." and confirmation it was  an old  blood memory.   That description makes it  seem like he  was something  like the first captain in Illian.  Maybe he was Aemon reborn, but for me the evidence points against it since it' true Aemon may of lead  the army, but wouldn't mean he personally lead the Heart guard.  Like the Illian companions, they have their own commander. The head of  Illian wasn't the first captain of the companions. 

Edited by Sabio
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Aemon and Ellisande (warder and Aes Sedai) was for a time considered foreshadowing to a Mat-Elayne bond; but I'm thinking that it is now considered a possibility that Mat would only agree to be a warder if Tuon (I'm not changing her name!) is the Aes Sedai. We know that Tuon ruled less than 2 decades after TG. She could have been killed; or maybe she was forced to go to Tar Valon. 

 

Regardless of evidence, I'd like to think that Mat eventually accompanies Tuon to Tar Valon where she would rise to Amyrlin Seat and make the city her capital (which was her wish in 'a hell in maderin' in KoD). 

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My orginial post was simply saying that seemed to me shows Mat wasn't Aemon.  Even with what you just posted we never get a diffinitve yes or no if he was Aemon reborn.  In the companion under Mat and Aemon it isn't mentioned, so that's no help.  It just says this is an old blood memory under the Heartguard entry.   I never said Mat might not be someone of Aemon's bloodline, my guess he is he has to be of Aemon bloodline.  It's just all we really have is "Heroic Manethern calvary troops that Mat commanded against the Trollocs in an earlier  life." and confirmation it was  an old  blood memory.   That description makes it  seem like he  was something  like the first captain in Illian.  Maybe he was Aemon reborn, but for me the evidence points against it since it' true Aemon may of lead  the army, but wouldn't mean he personally lead the Heart guard.  Like the Illian companions, they have their own commander. The head of  Illian wasn't the first captain of the companions. 

 

Except he wasn't just leading the Heartguard. Previous to him describing that the Heartguard awaited his command, he had said that he had pulled back HIS archers. He wasn't just commanding the Heartguard.

And how do you explain HIS bannerman and HIS bannerman was flying the actual Red Eagle of Manetheren. This was after he had described his own army and all the banners and con of various houses on the field. HE was the only one flying the Red Eagle.

Now add to this the fact that we know Aemon died on the field leading the armies against the Trolloc attack of Manetheren and that upon his death, Ellisande went nova and nuked everything and everybody in the area.

 

I'm telling you flat out here, that memory was clearly of Aemon. It could be no one else. This is something that has simply been accepted for over 20 years now by everyone, including both authors.

Re-read the memory itself, there is no other conclusion to be made.

 

So again, your OP doesn't tend to show that Mat wasn't Aemon, it actually does the opposite. It all but confirms that he actually is Aemon reborn instead of just being of his bloodline with the "previous life" line.

Edited by Finnssss
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Even BS has no idea if Mat is just Aemon bloodline or Aemon  reborn.  If its so conclusive then why is there nothing under Aemon or Mat about him being Aemon reborn?  Just don't see why RJ would of left his notes vague on it had he wanted mat to be Ameon reborn.

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robert jordan,intentionally kept things vague,it generated speculation,and he

was happy to let us speculate.

is mat aemon al caar reborn?or,was egwene latra posae decume reborn?

we simply don't know,so,to get to the bottom of our unsolved mysteries we read,

and reread and search for clues(real or otherwise) and so on...

rand is the only one we know for sure who he was in his past lives,the only one.

Edited by jack of shadows
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Even BS has no idea if Mat is just Aemon bloodline or Aemon  reborn.  If its so conclusive then why is there nothing under Aemon or Mat about him being Aemon reborn?  Just don't see why RJ would of left his notes vague on it had he wanted mat to be Ameon reborn.

 

I never claimed it was conclusive that Mat is actually Aemon reborn.

I said right from the beginning that whether Mat is Aemon reborn or just of his bloodline is and has been debated for a very long time now.

What I said that is not up for debate however, is whether or not it was Aemon's eyes that Mat was looking through in that memory. It was, end of story.

That memory is not referred to as the memory Mat had upon wakening at the White Tower, it is referred to as "The Aemon memory" and has been referred to that way for over 20 years now in every discussion forum, every fan site and in interviews with both authors.

If you have spent any time at all going through the interview database you would know that RJ was absolutely famous for correcting badly worded questions or questions with the wrong information attached to them.

Hell, he even had a bit of fit once over how everyone was pronouncing Taim's name wrong for pete's sake. Everyone kept saying Tame and by the end of that interview he made absolutely sure everyone was pronouncing it Tah-eem.

 

Therefore, knowing and accepting that it was indeed Aemon's eyes that Mat was looking though (and it was!) means that the description of the Heartguard you found stating it was a cavalry unit Mat led in a previous life lends credence to Mat actually being Aemon reborn.

 

I don't think I can be any clearer on this.

Edited by Finnssss
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Except Mat wasn't necessarily any of those people whose eyes he looked through.  Birgitte's comment was that Mat's Old Tongue changed from a high lord of manetheren to a common solder and on to something else with extreme ease.  His ability to speak it was an amalgam of all his memories, and to anyone who grew up speaking the Old Tongue it would be the equivalent of someone changing from a heavy British accent to an indian one to southern US redneck.  It would stand out like a sore thumb.

 

The Eelfin shoved memories into his head from tons of people.  On top of that Mat isn't tied to the Horn of Valere.  Odds are none of the memories they gave him were from any past lives of his, just random people who have encountered the Eelfin in one way or another over the years.

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But remember, each person is essentially a reincarnation of someone who lived before and Mat did have "strong manetheren blood" in him.  You're right about the memories unless Aemon had been reborn multiple times since the time of Manetheren and then his memories could have just been memories the Eelfin could grab most easily by throwing the memories of his past lives.  But something tells me he had some memories of opposing leaders alive at the same time, anyone remember?

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Except Mat wasn't necessarily any of those people whose eyes he looked through.  Birgitte's comment was that Mat's Old Tongue changed from a high lord of manetheren to a common solder and on to something else with extreme ease.  His ability to speak it was an amalgam of all his memories, and to anyone who grew up speaking the Old Tongue it would be the equivalent of someone changing from a heavy British accent to an indian one to southern US redneck.  It would stand out like a sore thumb.

 

The Eelfin shoved memories into his head from tons of people.  On top of that Mat isn't b tied to the Horn of Valere.  Odds are none of the memories they gave him were from any past lives of his, just random people who have encountered the Eelfin in one way or another over the years.

 

Mat's memories came after Rhuidean .... His Heart Guard memories were in TDR right after being healed. So Brigitte's comment doesn't apply to the Heart Guard memory. 

 

I think the Heart Guard memory is an indication of how "cleansed" he was after the healing. As if his old blood was amplified by the healing. 

Edited by Theodril
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But remember, each person is essentially a reincarnation of someone who lived before and Mat did have "strong manetheren blood" in him.  You're right about the memories unless Aemon had been reborn multiple times since the time of Manetheren and then his memories could have just been memories the Eelfin could grab most easily by throwing the memories of his past lives.  But something tells me he had some memories of opposing leaders alive at the same time, anyone remember?

 

Oh he had plenty of memories given to him. From thousands of men spanning around 1800 years, from being just a common soldier to being a general and everything in-between.

 

But as Theo just said, the Aemon memory was not given to him in book 4, he had it in book 3 after the healing.

He was also completely fluent in the Old Tongue after this, long before he made his first trip through the Doorway in Tear.

 

Also as a side note, Birgitte didn't just say he sounded like a high Lord of Manetheren, she specifically said a "First Prince of Manetheren".

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  • 2 weeks later...

memories are not always an indicator of rebirth.

 

about the Eelfinn memories, not all of them could be of past lives since a number of them overlap.  the memories were from people who have been through either door and/or through the tower.

not sure if someone could go through either door if a past life went through same door.  the door limit might extend to other incarnations of the soul.

 

being merged with another soul is another way to gain memories.  Slayer; Fain + Mordeth.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I always believed that the memory was Mat being Aemon leading his entire army, the Heartguard was his personal force within it much like the illianer king has his Companions.  I only had a little confusion as to whether Mat led the old Band of the Red Hand in maybe one of the borrowed memories.

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I always believed that the memory was Mat being Aemon leading his entire army, the Heartguard was his personal force within it much like the illianer king has his Companions.  I only had a little confusion as to whether Mat led the old Band of the Red Hand in maybe one of the borrowed memories.

 

Pretty sure Aemon led both.

The Heartguard was most likely Manethern's core army that never left there.

The Band of the Red Hand was Aemon's personal army that he left to fight in the Trolloc wars with.

Remember, as the tale goes, the Band, led by Aemon was up there fighting at the Field of Bekkar when he heard of the Shadowspawn army marching on Manetheren. They then heroically raced back just ahead of the Shadowspawn and engaged them with no rest holding at the Tarendrelle waiting for aid that never came.

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