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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
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The Wheel of Time Will Be Adapted as a TV Series

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Elessar's feelings as he wrote above are almost exactly how I see this.  In particular, 

On 3/22/2019 at 5:29 PM, Elessar said:

On the other hand, I fear whether they will be able to do it justice and not ‘just’ make a dumbed down, overly-simplified politically-correct version which perhaps works for a mainstream audience (who never read the books and perhaps never intend to) but which will be somewhat painful for us hardcore-WoT’ers to experience.


RJ did an amazing job of letting us into the character's internal thoughts.  Recreating this on screen requires time for character development.  The audience will need to get not only acquainted with each main character, but also come to know what makes each character tick.  Without this, later books (tv series seasons) will seriously suffer 

I took the revelation of condensing books 1 and 2 into a single season with a huge dose of: 'Well, so much for expecting a great TV series". 

If character development is sacrificed for expediency, which it will almost certainly have to be if EotW is to be depicted in 5 hours, then we will also lose the 'why' regarding character actions; or, how the story intrinsically reveals character motivations (as RJ did masterfully).  We will also certainly lose another of RJ's brilliant talents, his subtle placement of meaningful foreshadowing.  These are two of RJs three most brilliant traits, in my opinion.

 

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I thought the first books were going to have their own season because those book set the whole series up. That seems like a setup to fail because you can't do Eotw and tGH in 6 episodes if you want to go until the end. Now, the later books can be condensed alot but Eotw and tGH aren't those books

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On 4/3/2019 at 2:52 PM, DemandredFO said:

I thought the first books were going to have their own season because those book set the whole series up. That seems like a setup to fail because you can't do Eotw and tGH in 6 episodes if you want to go until the end. Now, the later books can be condensed alot but Eotw and tGH aren't those books

 

I heard that six was the episode count thus far when that was announced in March. Episode 6 title is supposed to be "The Flame of Tar Valon", which implies they'll be introducing Suian, hence ending EoTW and beginning TGH in episode 6.

They could also split the season, like AMC does with TWD. Season 101, 6 episodes, then 6-8 months later Season 102, with another 5-6 episodes. I would really like to see them do that.

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Hey, I don't post much and this will probably get a very negative response, but I want to voice my concerns about the TV series and why I'm not going to watch it unless it gets a hearty endorsement from hardcore WOT fans, the kind of people whose passion and knowledge put me to shame, the kind of readers I can trust. 

 

1) The lead writer's Twitter account makes it pretty clear that he's a woke male feminist. Even though WOT is replete with complex, diverse, strong, intelligent, endearing female characters, this will not be enough. They will drive the woke factor through the roof. I have no confidence in today's screenwriters, they are mostly without talent, integrity or imagination. Everything, regardless of what it is, becomes a vehicle for their current-year political messages. I'm not even conservative (!) and this has now driven me away from most media entertainment. It's just so obvious, shallow and repetitive, I can't sit through it anymore.

 

2) They won't let WOT be WOT. Everything on earth must now be GOT. Even though the books are very PG and sometimes soft PG-13, and millions of people would love to share this series as a family, expect them to take every opportunity to amp up the sex & violence. 

 

3) They cannot possibly have the budget to do this convincingly.

 

4) As with most other franchises going, expect them to corrupt and destroy everything you love about the characters, alter the world building for no apparent reason, and change things for the sake of changing them. 

 

5) As the show nears release, Amazon will hire a host of content writers to infest every corner of the internet. We call these people "shills" because they are just that: paid shills. These shilling trolls will swarm over every WOT forum in existence and defend every aspect of the show and attack anyone who dares criticize it in any way. They will overwhelm and drive away people who have been online for WOT since the dawn of the internet. Afterwards, the forums will be dead, since the shills just move on to the next job.

 

6) If all this doesn't work and the show crashes, they will blame the fans for not supporting it. The same fans they ignored in an attempt to build a new fanbase that never happened.

 

This has happened so many times now, it is what I expect. I might be wrong! I'll be checking out the reviews here from longstanding members before I drop coin and devote time. But I'm not going to blindly support it (as I did Shannara, Star Trek Discovery, Disney Star Wars etc.) just because I'm a "fan". 

 

I hope that wasn't too negative. I'm sure most people are excited and hoping for the best. But before you pooh-pooh this post, copy-paste it into a document and re-read it after Season 1 and see if I was wrong or right, before you judge me. 

Edited by AsaroVincent

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I've only skimmed this thread but I've seen it mentioned a few times here and in the what to keep what to cut thread that there are people who think WoT is PG, especially when making disparaging comments / comparisons with Game of Thrones / A Song of Ice and Fire and I kinda have to wonder if we're reading the same books.

 

I would say that aSoIaF definitely revels in 'adult' content more and plays more for titillation and gore in terms of lurid descriptions and general writing style but in terms of what's actually there, like purely what events are there in the books to show on tv I'd argue that Wheel of Time is as 'adult' in its content if not more so than aSoIaF.

 

First violence - obviously there are battles, swordfights and the like and on immense scales and thousands (or tens or hundreds of thousands) of people hacking, stabbing, bludgeoning, and shooting eachother to death is bad but it's kinda considered background standard fare (what does that say about us as a society and as readers, lol) and a lot of shadowspawn get blown up but they are just monsters so there's a general feeling that that doesn't really count but once we get the watershed of Dumai's Wells where channelling is introduced into warfare not just against creatures of the shadow but against men Jordan absolutely hammers home the extreme horrors of mechanised, mass warfare - people being blown limb from limb, turned into a red mist, people dying by the hundreds in explosions and fireballs, people screaming as they die, Jordan really makes sure the sickening horror of it all is as clear as possible... and I say people because Wheel of Time features female warriors in the Maidens of The Spear (and later in Cha Faile) which is something people are often squeamish about - much easier / more normal to watch the menfolk die in war. Later we also get multiple vivid descriptions of what gunpowder based weaponry does to human beings. There are also a bunch of executions of nobles or others who take up arms or who otherwise oppose either Rand or the Seanchan, mentions of dead and/or raped civilians as a result of banditry or The Prophet's people, tons of people hanging from trees and the like, that one guy's ear collection, the entire ambiance of the Whitecloak's "Citadel of Light".

 

There's the many descriptions of what the trollocs do to their prisoners, and the scene in T'A'R where the foolish Aes Sedai get stuck in a nightmare of the same which probably belongs in the torture section but most of the other trolloc stuff is just background info or happens offscreen until the last battle where we see it more closely so I wanted it in a seperate little section. There's as every gnarly thing relating to the Ruby Dagger, which includes but isn't limited to Fain crucifying a Myrddraal with metal spikes, and anyone who gets cut by it dying in a multitude of gory and gruesome ways.

 

Then we come to the many, many torture scenes, both psychic/mental in the case of say Logain being tortured for days to break his will so he can be 13/13'd (the very concept of which is extremely horrfying, turning someone who wants and chooses to be and fight for good to evil), every instance of compulsion and of course the absolute nightmare fuel that is the a'dam (which goes far beyond anything in aSoIaF in terms of how disturbing it is) and its use as a tool of mind-breaking enslavement and conditioning, as well as so much physical torture. To name a few instances: when Rand is captured (also mental from being locked in the dark for days, forced to watch his girlfriend get beaten to punish him), the various times a bunch of different characters are 'put to the question', Perrin torturing the Aiel for information, any time anyone on the Shadow side thinks someone over whom they have some position of authority has messed up or they just feel like throwing in some humiliation and/or torture. There's also a bunch of casual mentions of stuff the Black Ajah has been involved in in the past, and various mentions of stuff Semirhage did way back, as well as her torturing Cabriana and her warder, and later using the Sad Bracelets on Rand (both mental and physical). At some point the real Danelle would have been tortured to death too which I suspect will get shown early on the show to introduce Mesaana as an ongoing character and 'face' of the black ajah politics / political machinations in the tower, probably completely replacing Alviarin and giving her much more creit as an ongoing threat and the "shadow's amyrlin". Every instance of someone being severed / gentled / stilled probably counts as both mental and physical torture, it's essentially an act of spiritual mutilation. Birgitte's entire forced life is sort of an extended torture by Moghedien which causes her no end of anguish throughout the books over Gaidal and her place is a hero.

 

Trigger warning because now we have sexual violence - Morgase is raped by both Rahvin and Valda, Mat faces prolonged sexual abuse at the hands of Tylin, I'm pretty sure there's mention of trollocs and Myrddraal enjoying raping humans, it's implied that Shadar Haran rapes both Moghedien and Mesaana during their torture torture scenes. Suroth is give to the Deathwatch Guard (yeah, all of them) to use for whatever they want and the scene closes as her clothes are cut off so it's pretty clear where that's going, the Shaido are mentioned to be raping their wetlander prisoners, Graendal has an entire palace full of mindcontroled sex slaves.

 

Sex - if we ignore that Perrin and Faile got a whole book offscreen to have fun and that Rand and Min technically spend a ton of time together and seem to be a normal sexually active couple again off screen there are likely more rapes shown or implied in the series than consensual sex scenes - Rand gets a fade to black once with each of his girlfriends, I think Perrin gets one with Faile, and Mat gets one with Tuon and that's all folks. A bunch of side characters are obviously happily together but it's never really shown/mentioned.

 

Nudity - so much nudity, and it's mostly female nudity (so I guess that's good for tv, everyone loves some tits but you aren't allowed to show a cock) and frankly most of it I classify along with half of the torture scenes and almost all of the corporal punishment as Jordan throwing in some of his kinks, if it was an anime rather than a book I'd have turned off and be decrying it as pointless time-wasting fanservice. This is just the non-sexual, non-violent stuff: Every Aes Sedai ceremony? Naked. Go to Rhuidean? Naked. Get captured by the Aiel? Naked. Sweat tents and bathhouses, sure but damn it seems the Aiel (and wise ones in particular) can't actually hold meetings or discuss anything of any merit without stripping down and heading in to the sauna.

 

Corporal punishment, oh my! Mostly centred around the White Tower and the Aiel, though the Seanchan are in to it too. We start off with some light spanking and move on up to almost the full BDSM experience. Elayne gets a few. Egwene gets beaten almost as much (though doesn't have nearly as much fun) as my favourite non-combat heroine and the divinely anointed masochist Phèdre of the Kushiel series (for which Jordan provided a glowing cover quote, at least it's on my copy of Kushiel's Dart, just as a by the by). Faile gets introduced to Aiel shibari, beaten, hogtied, beaten a bit more and this seems to be on the light end of Sevanna does to her prisoners from stuff that's mentioned to happen to other "gai'shain" in the Shaido camp. Tuon gets beaten (at her request!) by Semirhage offscreen and was crying for days as a result (though Semi was "almost tender about it" because she's actually a misunderstood loving sadist, and not an evil psychopath?). Half the Aes Sedai also get handed 'penances' which are mostly various flavours of beating - Elaida in particular hands them out like candy under Alviarin's influence. Rand gets a few from the Maidens. And there's plenty of general background beatings that go on with the Aiel in general.

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Wonderful post, Tyrell ^^

 

When you put it like that, we are probably all here a little nuts to enjoy this great fantasy-saga as entertainment.. *dark grin* It is certainly adult in most respects, and often extreme (though the consensual sex-part, as you say, is modest [mostly off screen] compared to similar works; personally I approve of that but, like others, think that part will be much more prominent in the tv-series).

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Reading something and seeing it acted out are two different things. By that logic an X Rated adaptation would be okay. There's no need to dwell on it, to use it for shock value, or as an excuse to stick it in wherever possible. I don't think most WOT fans want an explicit television series. It's true these things happen in the books, but not frequently, nor did Jordan dwell on sadistic or titillating details. The series will lose many faithful fans who see the books as being overwhelmingly wholesome. Of course there's crossover, but there's also a big divide between WOT and GOT fans, stemming from the drastic differences in tone. I have no desire to watch a bloody, sexually charged WOT series and will wait until fans have weighed in before watching it. 

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I think the biggest difference between WOT and GOT, besides the first letter, is how in your face and crass GOT is and WOT is more subtle. For instance, I read the Tylin scenes numerous times and only after seeing comments on here, did I reconsider and go, yeah there's something wrong with that. It can start off as TV-14 but the later seasons, if it gets that far, are very definitely TV-MA.

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On 4/26/2019 at 6:26 PM, AsaroVincent said:

Hey, I don't post much and this will probably get a very negative response, but I want to voice my concerns about the TV series and why I'm not going to watch it unless it gets a hearty endorsement from hardcore WOT fans, the kind of people whose passion and knowledge put me to shame, the kind of readers I can trust. 

 

1) The lead writer's Twitter account makes it pretty clear that he's a woke male feminist. Even though WOT is replete with complex, diverse, strong, intelligent, endearing female characters, this will not be enough. They will drive the woke factor through the roof. I have no confidence in today's screenwriters, they are mostly without talent, integrity or imagination. Everything, regardless of what it is, becomes a vehicle for their current-year political messages. I'm not even conservative (!) and this has now driven me away from most media entertainment. It's just so obvious, shallow and repetitive, I can't sit through it anymore.

 

 

 

 

This scares me too! I was very excited while reading RJ's twitter Q&A. He sounds like he really is a fan of the books, and wants to stay as close to the source material as possible. So I was feeling really good about it...and then I got to the feminist comment. Not only does he call himself a feminist, he wants to put the story in a modern feminist light...and that worries me greatly. Especially since, when asked who his favorite characters are, every single one that he names is a woman (except Logain...which is cool, because I adore Logain).

 

As Asaro says above, WoT already has its share of complex female characters. It also has a lot of excellent male characters, and I would hate to see them reduced to a bit part just for the sake of a political agenda.

 

I've been doing a lot of (very anxious) reading about this, and it seems like the majority of people discussing this particular point believe that RJ's intentions are not anything so drastic. Most comments I found said that it's likely that RJ will be making the behavior, interactions, and dynamics of the characters more...realistic, I suppose you could say (i.e., less overbearing attitude from the women and less bumbling idiocy from the men), and that we can expect the female characters to be more individually fleshed out, instead of a lot of them having too-similar attitudes. If this is the case, then I'm all for it. But with everything that's been going on in film lately, I'm going to be nervous about it probably up until the first episode comes out.

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if they turn this into the sjw wot i will tune it out so quickly.....   

 

that said, feminism is a strong element of wot.  as long as they can make it self reflective and keep the humor in tact then it should fare well.  also wot is all about balance so hopefully they don't underestimate the male element, especially rand/perrin/matt.    hopefully they equally display the flaws of both the males and females as well.  some of the aes sedai can be quite tyrannical and i hope they don't display the white tower as a feminine utopia.

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18 hours ago, Pandemonium said:

if they turn this into the sjw wot i will tune it out so quickly.....   

 

that said, feminism is a strong element of wot.  as long as they can make it self reflective and keep the humor in tact then it should fare well.  also wot is all about balance so hopefully they don't underestimate the male element, especially rand/perrin/matt.    hopefully they equally display the flaws of both the males and females as well.  some of the aes sedai can be quite tyrannical and i hope they don't display the white tower as a feminine utopia.

 

Ah Pandemonium, you said exactly what I was trying/forgot to say. I agree completely, I hope the equality and balance come through in the show. 

 

Nice name btw 🙂 

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If its an SJW job ill be so pissed, especially after how GoTs last season failed so badly.

Edited by Zanatron

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On 5/20/2019 at 3:34 PM, Zanatron said:

If its an SJW job ill be so pissed, especially after how GoTs last season failed so badly.

yep, basically they need to avoid any of the mistakes that the last jedi made.  forced  political statements take away from the story.  I loved that they are using a more diverse cast, but that movie wasn't a great one for a number of reasons. The director is the one that screwed it up.

 

  wot already has great diversity and  racism doesn't seem like a big issue in this world so hopefully they don't try to.shoehorn in modern politics.  there sre definitely groups of people that don't like each other though

Edited by Pandemonium

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Oh yes @Pandemonium because two white guys, a white princess and one black guy for comic relief was oh so perfect. Star Wars is a GALAXY far, far away, not nordic countries and some black people for comic relief. It's fiction and new characters can look like whatever the director wants, not what white male fans want.

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In this thread: some people who are gonna lose their shit when non white actors get cast despite most characters not having an explicitly established skin colour and Randland being a far future setting where skin colour is entirely irrelevant.

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12 hours ago, Tyrell said:

In this thread: some people who are gonna lose their shit when non white actors get cast despite most characters not having an explicitly established skin colour and Randland being a far future setting where skin colour is entirely irrelevant.

skin color is irrelevant in wot and I could care less how they cast it.  If they go by the books there will be many races and cultures and main characters like Tuon will be black.  All that is great, no problem.  Just hope they keep the modern political narratives out of this.  I want it to be more like game of thrones where they can do surprising things without offending someone.  If they have to be politically correct then it will ruin the tv show.  

One of the key traits of the wheel of time was all the different perspectives and all the communication barriers that would crop up between different groups of people.  hopefully they can let all that shine and they will need a very diverse cast to make it happen. 

Edited by Pandemonium

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8 hours ago, Pandemonium said:

skin color is irrelevant in wot and I could care less how they cast it.  If they go by the books there will be many races and cultures and main characters like Tuon will be black.  All that is great, no problem.  Just hope they keep the modern political narratives out of this.  I want it to be more like game of thrones where they can do surprising things without offending someone.  If they have to be politically correct then it will ruin the tv show.  

One of the key traits of the wheel of time was all the different perspectives and all the communication barriers that would crop up between different groups of people.  hopefully they can let all that shine and they will need a very diverse cast to make it happen. 

 

Theres an over 1000000 person online petition that might disagree with the bold....lol.

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I also think skin color is quite prevalent in WoT.  Jordan went out of his way to describe some if the different ethnic groups of people in WoT so yes i will be upset if people are cast as characters part of different looking ethnic groups simply because of perceived politicial correctness/sjw BS.

 

And it works any way....if someones who was supposed to be black ends up being played by a white guy or any which way it happens will be annoying and detract from the show at least to me. 

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Besides @Pandemoniumone of the reasons I think alot like GOT is because it revels in its graphic violence, sex and crudity and being offensive. I didn't watch the show but I hear it wasn't kind to women. If people weren't happy about Arya's role in Ep3 when becoming an assassin was the whole point of her story from after Ned dying, they really won't like Moiraine, Nyneave, Egwene, cadsuane, etc.

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i

4 hours ago, DemandredFO said:

Besides @Pandemoniumone of the reasons I think alot like GOT is because it revels in its graphic violence, sex and crudity and being offensive. I didn't watch the show but I hear it wasn't kind to women. If people weren't happy about Arya's role in Ep3 when becoming an assassin was the whole point of her story from after Ned dying, they really won't like Moiraine, Nyneave, Egwene, cadsuane, etc.

i was disappointed with some aspects of GoT but I was very happy they were allowed to be offensive and display controversial behavior.  WoT is no where near as edgy as game of thrones, but it certainly has elements of abuse, rape, chauvinism, etc.   I rather them keep it real than appease to a bunch of people that complain on twitter.  I don't want them to take out shadar haran beating graendal and mesaana just because it might offend some.  likewise matt's womanizing should not he sugar coated, nor should graendal's  and rhavin's mind rapes.

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Hello Dragonmount!

 

There are rumours, mainly from Sanderson, that there will be

 

Quote

unexpected changes

 

in the TV series. Any idea, what could be these? Any wild guess?

Edited by Berta2

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We are just 3 months before filming, and I'd like to know the number of the episodes of the first season: is it 6, is it 10, or is it 13?

Edited by Berta2

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I wonder if they'll keep the part about Two Rivers people not being lily-white, race-wise. I mean, Rand says he's surprised to see someone with blonde hair for the first time in his life when he meets Else Grimwell's mother. And some people bullied him because he had grey eyes, which only peddlers or other foreigners had, no Two Rivers person had that. 

 

I wonder how the fandom will react to having lots of Latinos or Middle Easterners for the main cast, for example (not Rand, since he's clearly a foreigners, but basically everyone else in the Two Rivers). 

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