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What happens to those who were "turned" and other issues not addressed in the Companion


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Hello everyone,

 

   Been awhile since I've been here and even longer since I posted anything. While reading the Companion, a thought occurred to me  regarding an issue that wasn't addressed. I also did a search of the forums and couldn't find it so I'm going to pose a question related to those Ashaman and Aes Sedai who were turned  and survived the Last Battle. When Rand resealed the bore, the Dark one's influence was cut off from the world. That being the case, what happens to the "Turned" who were enslaved ? Wouldn't the enslavement end upon the re-sealing? Wouldn't they be "returned" automatically?

 

Aditionally, I have some problems with the way the companion doesn't deal with the fates of some of the minor characters? Does Theodrin survive ? What about the Aes Sedai who were compelled by Grandael and then used up? Also, how come the Companion completely missed the real reason why Kairin Stang and anaiya were killed? I mean it was brought up several times that they had such a close relationship with Cabriana Mecandes that they were called "The Three". I think Mr. Jordan even spoke of the fact that Stang and Aniaya were murdered by Halima to maintain her secret. The Companion speaks of the murders of Egwene's spy maid, but not of this issue?

 

Anyway, if any of you can shed light on these issues (Especially the turning question),I'd appreciated.It bothers me that the Turned are just left there in limbo. They weren't dark friends, but they're left hanging. It has always bothered me and I thought the Companion would resolve the issue..And it didn't. Thanks, tud

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Think the turning was left in limbo becuase no one in that age really knows if they can be helped or not.  It seems pretty permanent, since the power is used and whatever the Myrdraal do.  But might not of needed the DO, so with the DO gone it probably has no affect.  The damage has been done, so the DO suddenly be sealed wouldn't heal it.  Might be RJ just never put anything  down about it so no one knows much about it.  But since we don't know more about what actually happens to them in the process it's hard to say.  Possible a cure might be eventually found.

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Thaks for the reply..I see what you're saying, but the problem is that the Dark one's power is being used to enslave the Turned..W/o its presence, wouldn't the process unravel/

 

tud

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Thaks for the reply..I see what you're saying, but the problem is that the Dark one's power is being used to enslave the Turned..W/o its presence, wouldn't the process unravel/

Why would it? Unless Shai'tan's influence is active and ongoing then it's not at all unreasonable that people who were turned would continue to be turned. We see an example of this in RJ's comments on the Ways - the Taint caused the corruption, but just because the Taint is gone doesn't mean the corruption will go away, because the Taint was just a cause, not an ongoing component of the corruption of the Ways.

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I think Ares put it best.  If they suddenly all went back to normal it would mean his power was actively keeping them turned, so without it poof they would be healed.  Like the area around his prison.  As he prison weakned he was able to corrupt more and more land.  With him suddenly sealed away the land now heals. But that was because he was actively using his power to do that.  Whatever happened to the turned might of possibly involved his power but he wasn't using his power to keep them that way, the damage  was done.  So with him gone it won't simply vanish.  

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I never thought that the turning process required an "active link" to the dark one.  It was described that the turning process doesn't really create a new person, it just brings all of their darker thoughts, actions, processes to the forefront and suppresses the "good" actions.

 

My take is that all of the turned people will still be evil, just like bad people would still be bad once the Bore was sealed.  It is just part of the clean-up process after any major war that will need to be completed to bring order and justice back to the land.

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I think Ares put it best.  If they suddenly all went back to normal it would mean his power was actively keeping them turned, so without it poof they would be healed.  Like the area around his prison.  As he prison weakned he was able to corrupt more and more land.  With him suddenly sealed away the land now heals. But that was because he was actively using his power to do that.  Whatever happened to the turned might of possibly involved his power but he wasn't using his power to keep them that way, the damage  was done.  So with him gone it won't simply vanish.  

The DO's power was used through the Mydraal and the people were turned.  At best, I believe that what was done is done, however with the shadow spawn dying as the DO was sealed away, there might now be a possibility to turn them back or to have the person return to the light.  I do not believe it would be instant much as we would like it to be.

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All I can find about this is in the BWB on page 66, it says Semirhage was the one to discover that a circle of thirteen, using thirteen Myrddraal as a sort of filter, could turn anyone who could channel to the shadow.  So seems something about the Myrddraal's makeup that is the key.  So my guess is that the other big reason they didn't turn back when the DO was sealed  away is he seemed to of played no part in it. 

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the power used was filtered through the shadowspawn so at best it can be healed now by someone because I doubt anything will happen without active intervention. On another subject did the companion say all the shadowspawn dropped dead with the DO.

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Okay, I've , in fact,  be reversed (The reason it hasn't been done before is because no one seems to have ever tried). That being the case, since  Nyneave has shown she can remove  compulsion, there's no reason why the turned can't be re-stored. Furthermore, there's the question of what would happen to a Compulsed when the Compulser is killed. That situation has never actully occurred in the series. The closest would have been Natrim's Barrow and that involved baelfire which would have prevented the action of compulsion from occurring in the first place. 

 

All of that aside, the arguement that just because the Dark one didn't actually have a hand in the  turning process,  his removal would have no affect seems a bit weak when you consider that he never actually had a hand in creating the blig. As I recall, there was a discussion  on the subject and it was specifically stated that even during the War Of The Shadow, he/It never actully touched the world. The blight,etc all occurred due to his mere influenc, not his active efforts to corrupt the land. So, if we use the arguement that anything that didn't require the DO's active participation would be unaffected by his departure, then the blight should be un-affected. Yet, as we all know,  almost immediately upon the re-forging, it's begun to spontaneously disappear.  If that's the case, the turning which requires creatures of the shadow working with those who've showrn to the shadow, should be affected.

 

The stronger arguement, INHO, is the taint on the ways. The problem with that is that it seems to me that there was no inherent taint..there was Mashadar (Otherwise, no one would have ever been able to use the ways without being affected and we know that that isn't true). Does anyone know if there has been a dicussion as to what happened to the ways when Mashadar left it and was destroyed ?   My guess is that they are once more safe to travel (even though they are now obsolete).

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He did have a hand in creating the blight, if you noticed the more the DO could touch the world the larger the blight got.  It was his power/influence (whatever you wish to call it) doing it, so when the DO could no longer touch the world it got better, like the weather which he was influencing.  So the DO had no influence in the turning, hence when he died they are still turned.  Can they be fixed one day, maybe, but my guess is only RJ had that answer.  I might of missed something but when did Mashadar leave the ways?

 

I think it was BS or RJ who said if the DO was sealed away all shadow spawn would drop dead. 

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Well, lets see..Mr Jordan said that a turned person could be brought back, so i guess that question is answered. As for the DO creating the blight..It was specifically stated that the DO couldn't touch the world. The blight appears to have come into being because it was the spot closet to wharer the bore came closet to the world. Much as the taint  caused Masadh which grew on it's own, the mere presence of the bore caused the blight  and then cuased it to grow even after the bore was patched.  Only the re-forging removed the DO's presence  and allowed the blight to disappear.

 

. That's actually why I asked the question..He didn't  touch the world and yet caused the blight..If that is cured by the re-forging, what affect would that have on the "Turned"? I'd be more willing to accept that the turning is a form of compulsion which can be reversed than that it is a permanent status. 

 

For that matter, what happens to the Black Ajah and the other darkfriends Talk about backing the wrong horse!! Also, what exactly is the difference between the black Ajah and  Dreadlords..I mean aside form the BA being evil Aes Sedai..don't they fit the job requirements?

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Remaining BA will try to hide, but sure the White and black tower will be hunting  down traitors. 

 

He could touch the world/influence the more the seals weakned the more he could touch and influence things like the weather.  Hence why the blight over time slowly kept expanding.  Now that he is properly sealed away his touch  is gone until the next time his prison is drilled into.  Soon as he was properly sealed and the DO's touch removed, the blight started to vanish and the land was returning to normal. 

 

In the WOT Companion - Great Blight - A stretch of territory north of the Borderland, home of the Trollocs, Myrddraal, and other creatures of the Shadow and characterized by the evil influence of the Dark One.  Not part of the normal universe (as was also true of stedding or lands of Aelfinn/Eelfinn), it was not reflected in and could not be entered from Tel'aran'rhiod.  So his influence was corrupting it.  Ummm but it does sort of point out a possible mistake, how could  Slayer, Perrin, and Lanfear get there from the world of  dreams then?

 

But as we have  seen MAshadar doesn't kill everything, it killed trollocs going to Two rivers etc, so the trollocs in KOD might of simply been the survivors, if they all went by ways.  Think it was mentioned the more that go in the greater the chance of attracting Mashadar, so it's unlikely they would send 100,000 in at once.  We have also seen they are capable of sending forces south without being seen.  But there was nothing mentioned of Mashadar leaving the ways or dying. 

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Furthermore, there's the question of what would happen to a Compulsed when the Compulser is killed. That situation has never actully occurred in the series. The closest would have been Natrim's Barrow and that involved baelfire which would have prevented the action of compulsion from occurring in the first place.

actually there are at least 2 other examples of a compeller dying with Compulsion victims surviving.

-Rahvin's Compulsion on Morgase

-Verin's Compulsion on Elza

 

by the way, the root of compulsion is compel (not compulse).

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Okay, I've , in fact,  be reversed (The reason it hasn't been done before is because no one seems to have ever tried). That being the case, since  Nyneave has shown she can remove  compulsion, there's no reason why the turned can't be re-stored. Furthermore, there's the question of what would happen to a Compulsed when the Compulser is killed. That situation has never actully occurred in the series. The closest would have been Natrim's Barrow and that involved baelfire which would have prevented the action of compulsion from occurring in the first place.

Compelled, not Compulsed. As for what would happen, nothing. Or at least the Compusion would be unaffected - if you mind rape people to the extent Graendal did then I doubt her no longer being around would be good for you. But for Compulsion itself, it's a weave. Tied off weaves have no further connection to the weaver, and thus their death would have no effect.

 

All of that aside, the arguement that just because the Dark one didn't actually have a hand in the  turning process,  his removal would have no affect seems a bit weak when you consider that he never actually had a hand in creating the blig. As I recall, there was a discussion  on the subject and it was specifically stated that even during the War Of The Shadow, he/It never actully touched the world. The blight,etc all occurred due to his mere influenc, not his active efforts to corrupt the land. So, if we use the arguement that anything that didn't require the DO's active participation would be unaffected by his departure, then the blight should be un-affected. Yet, as we all know,  almost immediately upon the re-forging, it's begun to spontaneously disappear.  If that's the case, the turning which requires creatures of the shadow working with those who've showrn to the shadow, should be affected.

If I shot you, the bullet does damage. If the bullet is removed, the damage is still there. It's really not unreasonable to believe that Turning someone creates a change but that change is not something requiring the ongoing influence of either Shai'tan or Shadowspawn to remain in place. It is simply something that has happened.

 

The stronger arguement, INHO, is the taint on the ways. The problem with that is that it seems to me that there was no inherent taint..there was Mashadar (Otherwise, no one would have ever been able to use the ways without being affected and we know that that isn't true). Does anyone know if there has been a dicussion as to what happened to the ways when Mashadar left it and was destroyed ?   My guess is that they are once more safe to travel (even though they are now obsolete).

The people who passed through the Ways would only have spent a short amount of time in them. The Ways were corrupted over a lengthy period. You're saying that rivers can't erode rock because you can paddle in them without losing your legs. As for what happened to Machin Shin, we don't know if it left or if it was destroyed. We only know of an unexplained absence. Also, you mean Machin Shin, not Mashadar. Mashadar was in Shadar Logoth, Machin Shin was in the Ways. Mashadar was destroyed with Shadar Logoth.

 

For that matter, what happens to the Black Ajah and the other darkfriends Talk about backing the wrong horse!! Also, what exactly is the difference between the black Ajah and  Dreadlords..I mean aside form the BA being evil Aes Sedai..don't they fit the job requirements?

The Black Ajah was an organisation created to infiltrate and corrupt the White Tower. Thus, BA would be a subset of Dreadlords, if Dreadlords are considered any Channelers sworn to the Shadow who aren't Chosen.

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MB, etc.. i'm fully aware of the fact that the root of copulsion is compel.  I was using an invented "term of Art to describe those who have been subjected to

 

And you are correct about the Rahvin, but Verin didn't die before elza, but after. The one you were thinking of is Perrin..He was compelled (See? I can use the proper tense.*G*) by Lanfear, but killed her. It seems that the death of the Compeller does have a profound affect of the Compelled . They are at least aware of the fact that they were compelled and feel a connection, but they no longer seemed to be subject to the compulsion.

 

As for mixing up Mashadar and Machin Shin, my bad.

 

Regarding the ways, I believe that  both of my points are  valid.. Machin shin left the ways with Padain Fain and was destroyed along with him at Shayol Ghol (If you don't think so, go back and read that section of MOL..There isn't anything else in WOT that does what that mist does and which would involve Padain Fain. The only other candiate for the mist was destroyed along with  Shador Logoth)  As for the taint on the ways, what I was trying to say was that the taint  wasn't there originally becuase if it had been no one could have ever used the ways w/o dying. The taint grew gradually and became Machin Shin. Assuming Machin shin was destroyed during the last battle that  should result in the ways being free of the taint. Worn and chewed up by thousands of years dealing with the taint, but clean nonetheless.

 

Leaving all of that aside, I have another , unanswered question.. With the blight being converted back to its original state  what's going to happen with all the nasties that live there?

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The fog in Shadar Logth.  What was following Fain was alot more like the fog from there then the black wind.  It would also seem likely that if Fain somehow absorbed  Machin Shin or the black wind broke free the companion would of mentioned it.

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Hi Sabio,

 

  I have to once again acknowledge a mistake. I should have stuck with my original identification of the mist that follows Padan Fain as Mashadar, rather than Machin Shin. I was persuaded that I had made a mistake by a post from an unnamed poster who stated that Mashadar had been destroyed along with  Shador Logoth during the cleansing. Imagine my chagrin when I re-read the Shayol Ghul section of MOL very early this morning and discovered that I was originally correct and that it was Mashadar that traveled with Fain.

 

  That means that Machin shin still infests the Ways (I think) and all of my  arguements  related to it's leaving the Ways are invalid and irrelevant.

 

My apologies for the mix-up and the protracted discussion based thereupon.

 

It also occurs to me that posing a question about turning is a bit silly since any answer can only be responded to by conjecture/opinion. So far as I can tell, no one who could speak with authority (Like Mr. Jordan , for instance) such to answer the question.  That being the case,I think I will let it go...

 

 

On the other hand, while I was re-reading th eend segment of MOL I came upon the pipe scene (One of my personal favorites...The absolute favorite being Logain's scene at the ruins) and it got me to wondering what Rand used to light the dern thing. Since he couldn't sense Saidin or the One Power (O True Power) and indicated he could no longer channel , how did do it. It seemed to me that the way the process was described was almost exactly the way Perrin, Gaul, the Wise Ones and the Aes Sedai have described working in the Wolf Dream/ Telandriod (sp?). How is that possible since Rand has only rarely entered the dream world (And I don't think he ever tried to influence the dream) and he wasn't dreaming anyway. Anyone got a clue?

 

Thanks..and trust me, on this question, i'm not going to dispute anything anyone comes up with, 'cause I haven't got a clue beyond what I just described.

Edited by Tud
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was wrong about Verin; she did die after Elza.  but Verin did have other Compulsion victims; I presume that they still have Compulsion.

about Cyndane's Compulsion on Perrin; the scene seems to tell that he broke from it (at least partially) before he killed her.  Not sure if a fully compelled person could kill the compeller.  and I recall somewhere telling of another Compulsion victim breaking from the Compulsion on them within Telaranrhiod; Nynaeve from Moghedien's, some point in Shadow Rising.

 

about the Blight residents, their fate would depend on whether they could survive without blight or not.  if they could, any Tarmon Gaidon survivors probably still live.  if they could not, the remaining ones probably died shortly shortly after the Blight was gone.

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