World's End Mafia - town wins comprehensively

[Cory Caboose]

Zander, BFG is saying Besie isn't pinging her in this game. Sentences are hard though.

[BFG]

Not sure what you're confused about Zander?

[BFG]

I swear this game is turning me into Csarmi

[Zander?]

Zander I think you've had enough

 

lolololololol

 

Really gone now :/

 

 

Bye BFG!!!!

[Cory Caboose]

BFG thanks for listening. I really do hope you note it, because

 

 

I've

just

got

this

feeling.

 

 

 

 

 

[Zander?]

Zander, BFG is saying Besie isn't pinging her in this game. Sentences are hard though.

 

 

Not sure what you're confused about Zander?

 

 

#thereadingcomprehensionishard

[Zander?]

I swear this game is turning me into Csarmi

[BFG]

BFG thanks for listening. I really do hope you note it, because

 

 

I've

just

got

this

feeling.

 

 

 

 

 

<3

[Zander?]

 

Shad some of your catch-up posts have been okay and I know you are sick but you do not feet correct to me aorn. I've sort of set the clock forward to give you time but it's there's been a growing disconnect between what I expect from you as a villager and your current mindset and it's grown too large to not mention at this point.

 

Dunno what to tell you.  I'm doing what I do.

 

 

 

I think I may have commented on this already but anyway....I disagree.  Strongly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 but I can't help but think scum would be a little beyond that topic by now?  Like, someone who subbed in today as scum and did a modest skim to make sure he didn't facepalm out the gate should probably recognize that it's just not a good topic to argue at this point.  And I don't know if that lack of awareness before posting makes him town, but if he's scum he's rather oblivious scum.  It's something to consider at least.

 

I am going to ask you one question. You're not new now - you've played more then a handful of times, and especially you have seen Mafia QTs at this point and read them - exactly how many times have you seen extremely co-ordinated efforts by teams to limit discussion topics for their teammates and really guide teammates on what to post?

 

 

Nearly never, but off the top of my head I can't think of any player besides Darthe and Salami who would realistically show up really late to a game as scum and not try to get some grasp of current trends before posting, and it's probably been the most discussed topic of this game so far.

 

 

That's funny, because the vast majority of wolves on this site that I've ever seen just sort of press buttons and do whatever. I'm certainly not going to village read someone for showing up late and hammering on a topic that's been beaten to death already.

 

I'm also not sure where you are imagining they are getting that resource from considering the vast majority of Mafia QTs I've read from this forum contain little more real discussion than NK and night action targets. Nobody is posting game summaries and what is "talked about too much or too little".

 

I could easily see a wolf catching up, seeing something everyone is talking about, and going "well everyone is talking about this, I should say something too!"

 

 

 

 

Just seems like a really dumb reason to read someone villager to me.

Just my 2c.

 

What exactly is hard to grasp here?  Lenlo has said probably two dozen times in this thread that he didn't mean we should intentionally lynch a town player.  Many people have supported him on this claim.  Many people have gotten annoyed that it's even still being talked about.  Do you think scum are likely to see this and resurrect it anyway?

 

My point is that if he's scum he's not particularly attentive scum.  Do you have a more insightful conclusion to draw from those multiquote chains?

 

 

Why wouldn't Scum try to resurrect a fight between who we now know is a Villa in Pizza and Len (?) especially if Len is town?  The fight has been the hot topic.  I think its especially more likely for an uncomfortable, far behind or newer Scum.

 

 

Okay, different question. Again for everyone because this one is important.

 

What are your two strongest reads? Doesn't matter if it's a wolf read or a village read. What are the two most confident reads you have this game that you'd bet the house on if you had to?

 

For me, it's Zander villager and BFG villager, but I think I've stated that already.

 

At this point, Zander and Sooh.

 

 

 

I know you;ve touched on me a fair bit.  But I dont remember a lot of why you have Sooh so high atp.  I know you mentioned something about her sass and maybe defending her reads (?) can you go into some detail here for me,

[Cory Caboose]

Oh my god I forgot about the Shad Nikon thing. Noted it but forgot.

 

There are implications there.

 

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[Cory Caboose]

Finished with Besie's ISO in both games.

Going to lie down and think about it more and hopefully the truth comes to me in a dream.

 

NIGHT FRANDS

[Zander?]

Sick!Oliver is finally ready for a nap but insists on sleeping in my arms. You have no idea how cute and frustrating this is.

 

I'm not saying anything but I'm just saying something.

 

 

 

 

Shad look directly in my eyes and answer this....."Are you a Wolf"

 

no ? is on purpose.......

No?

 

 

[/v] unvote [/v]

 

[v] Shad [/v]

 

 

I feel like I really should have stayed here, especially you know hindsight and all. 

 

 

Perhaps I should have answered

 

 

I need to explain nothing about how this makes me feel.....lololololololololol

 

 

 

I literally have a baby sleeping on my shoulder. I've had a text document with ISOs in progress that is generating new content at the rate of about an inch an hour and sometimes when I'm lucky I can type with both hands.  If it's massive content you want, sorry, probably not happening any time soon.

 

 

Its ok brother I understand I really do....and cause I'm such a Villagery Person I'm going to help clear your schedule up some for you.

 

 

 

I really will help you with this now!!!!!!

[Zander?]

Then lynch Pizza imo.  Chances of killing scum significantly > 0% and if he flips town you'll probably get your wish tonight.

 

 

I wish I may

I wish I might

Have this wish

I wish tonight

[Zander?]

 

 

I know RL stuff can be legit but I feel Like he's made a AtE type posts that I really don't expect much of from him.

If you honestly think that saying my kid is sick is a scum tell, I'm going to fly to Canada and slap you, then steal your wallet to pay for the return fair.

 

There are two options in this game: I am town who has been very distracted, or I am scum who has been very distracted. Convincing you of the former is proving a challenge, and that's frustrating, but in the worst case scenario I'll have a great deal of say on who dies over the next few nights and I won't be bothered with trying to "prove" myself anymore.

 

Best option: don't lynch me.  But I'm not going to fight it tooth and nail.

 

 

Absolutely not Shad and you know that.

 

Town!Shad does 100% of the time imo.

 

 

 

I'm sorry if I haven't been as involved in this game as you've all grown to expect of me. I can't do it all the time. But I want to do it all the time, and I create opportunities when I can.

 

When your top suspect is the most long-winded player in the game of mafia, presenting a case isn't particularly easy.

 

But I ISO'd Pizza up to his unvote. It was as far as I could get. I am still voting him and have no intention of moving unless some miracle transpired after I left off and I can spare another large block of undistracted time to digest it.

 

Have fun:

 

So you feel confident here that your vote is good without even finishing reading Pizza fully?  In lieu of his Town flip this doesnt look so good imo

[Zander?]

Pizza part 2

 

 

 

#718 -- calls Lenlo scum

 

#719 --

 

 

 

 

 

Well, answer me this: Do you think a scum player is more likely to "smudge" somebody, or to avoid a form of behavior which that player routinely criticizes as town?

I think it's far, far more likely they'd try to smudge someone without fully calculating out the repercussions, yes.

 

Not even a question.

 

Heh. I don't think that's something we'll see eye-to-eye on.

 

I think a lot of players fail to recognize what is generically scummy behavior, but most have a few tells they look for. The tells are often misguided, but for better or worse they are lodged in an individual's head as what scum do, and when they rand mafia they will be pretty self-conscious to avoid that sort of behavior. But as town, especially when the "scum tell" amounts to jack, a player is liable to repeatedly break his own rule and never realize it.

 

 

 

~~Quoted with my response, what I'm getting at here is that in NBC Lenlo was pretty relentless about insisting people take firm stances of town or scum on everybody. At this point in the game he'd repeatedly stated that he wasn't trying to call Dice scum earlier, and he'd waffled a lot on whether he thought Dice's further comments were actually scummy or not. I think a lot of players have a few key behaviors they look for when scum hunting, and whether these are reliable tells or not they will probably make a conscious effort to avoid doing them as scum. Scum!Lenlo is probably more likely to lay down a read on Dice in this scenario. I wanted to see if Pizza would ever reach this sort of conclusion.

 

#721 -- Says that there is no elaborate plan behind what he's doing with Lenlo

 

#723 -- calls Lenlo scum

 

#727 -- Lenlo asked Pizza if he'd even read Dice's post, said it made no sense to him. Pizza agrees, but says Dice showed no scummy motive, whereas Lenlo treated him as a wolf and then backpeddled. Pizza asks why Lenlo is redirecting the conversation to Dice if Lenlo isn't accusing Dice.

 

~~Lenlo's been arguing that he didn't find the post scummy, just stupid, and Pizza keeps bringing it back to no, Lenlo treated it as scummy. I don't really get where Lenlo is trying to "redirect" anything. It's the topic Pizza's been hounding on all along.

 

#729 -- Lenlo asked Pizza what he would do if Lenlo flips town. Pizza calls him scum.

 

#731 -- Zander had said Pizza is his strongest scum read but if he's wrong he'll follow up on Pizza's case on Lenlo. Pizza replies with "And Dice is a villager. And Cory is probably a villager. And you are. And kill anyone who says otherwise."

 

~~It kind of strikes me as blatant ass kissing at a glance. >_>

 

#733 -- says he's not smudging, he's blatantly calling Lenlo a wolf

 

#736 -- Lenlo brought up his question again of what Pizza will do if Lenlo flips town, since Pizza blew it off the first time. Pizza says the question doesn't help solve the game and brings up Lenlo "redirecting" the conversation onto Dice in #727

 

~~I kind of get the feeling that Pizza is just making up random crap at this point and flinging it with the force of titans, no offense if you're town. <_<

 

#740 -- irt #731 Lenlo had pointed out that Cory had called Dice scummy, so by Pizza's logic we'll have to kill Cory. Pizza responds with "Going for the inconsistency route? That's certainly specious, considering that Cory has said Dice is trending up."

 

~~Kind of grasping at straws from both parties tbh.

 

#742 -- Lenlo had challenged #733, Pizza responds with "Yes, it is completely different, and every single townie in this game with half a brain cell understands the difference between explicit voting and implicit smearing, wolf." ~~Agreed here.

 

#752 --

 

 

 

 

 

 

Btw, nowhere in your catchup did you answer my or Zanders concerns about you. Ignore me all you want, but Zander is someone you apparently have a town read on. Why ignore it?

 

Once again btw explain how every single thing I have done is scummy. Cause honestly, that takes alot of skill or bad luck to make every single thing someone does scummy.

I'm responding to your posts in seconds, and you're bringing up distractions, and you're calling it ignoring.

 

This is why real time is important.

 

Wolves resort to confusing the issues, and it only appears to be an equal fight on the surface, because you're spending all your time attacking, as am I.

 

But there's a difference between our attacks. Mine are honest, and are leading to a premise, whereas yours are pointing away and attempting to conflate and attempting to create sameness where there are differences.

 

That's the dishonesty.

 

That's the difference.

 

Responding to my posts in seconds by not responding to parts you dont care to.

Honest yet twisting my words.

Confusing issues by pointing you towards stated problems with your case about me.

Really?

 

Irrelevancies, red herrings, trivialities that don't solve or have nothing to do with my alignment, or yours, or Dices.

 

I haven't twisted any of your words. Not one.

 

Confusing matters by changing the subject, by invoking those red herrings.

 

Really.

 

 

 

~~My take away to this point is pretty much the exact opposite. Lenlo asked a lot of questions that I would have liked to hear answers to, Pizza spun all of them into reasons to call Lenlo scum instead of answering (and blew off my questions. and blew off Zander's questions). Lenlo did eventually transition into some bad points towards the end, but I kind of feel like he was forced into them because Pizza absolutely would not let him get a word in.

 

#753 -- calls Lenlo scum

 

#756 -- not ready to suss Nikon for inactivity

 

#757 -- says Sooh might be Lenlo's partner because she had no excuse to back off of him earlier, says Dice is never Lenlo's partner.

 

#764 -- says he's not worried if he dies today because Lenlo's scum and he'll just kill him at night

 

#766 -- says (I think in reference to #757?) that if Pizza was scum he wouldn't have suggested (Sooh was a wolf?); he'd have presented it more convincingly

 

#768 -- acknowledges that "if I was scum" posts are self-defeating

 

#777 -- Zander had asked Pizza if Lenlo could really be this obviously scummy when other good players in the game aren't terribly concerned about him. Pizza says that one player usually has to draw the attention before others will notice, cites his case on BFG in NBC. He says people will ignore Lenlo's actual content at this stage of the game because he is present and highly active. He also says:

 

"There are other things. Specious arguments, which on the surface appear plausible. It means any townie putting in the work, skimming to catch up, is going to see Lenlo and Dice arguing about something, and since Lenlo is on the attack and going BUT HOW COULD THIS NOT BE TOWNIE RARARARARARA all caps, some people not putting in the fine-tooth combing will go, yeah, maybe Lenlo is right, Dice doesn't have all his ducks in a row with his arguments, and it's a question which doesn't have a good rebuttal because it's an argument which begins with the implicit assumption that the idea is pro-town, being against it is anti-town, and obviously anyone who questions this pro-town thing is a questionable person, and he who points out the questionable person is likely to be town."

~~I don't really like the paraphrase, if he's going to get into nitpicking detail about it. Lenlo had said "IN WHAT WORLD DOES KEEPING TWO VCS TODAY HURT TOWN?" Pizza says it's a question that doesn't have a good rebuttal, but it's a pretty straight question. Yes it's encased in possibly fake frustration, but either you have a rebuttal or you agree. I thought it couldn't hurt but wouldn't really help either and would be a sort of pointless exercise, and I said as much. Pizza himself gave an explanation for how it could hurt, and that explanation was kind of crap, and when I challenged him on it he blew me off repeatedly.

 

Tells us to look at the argument they just had and we'll see that Lenlo was being dishonest and attempting to confuse everything. ~~I really just see Pizza saying that over and over again, not Lenlo doing it...

 

Emphasizes that they can't be w/w ~~I don't think it was w/w, but I think it's a little odd that Pizza's pointing this out?

 

Points out that others noticed Lenlo was being scummy too prior to the fight ~~and he was, for totally different reasons that still sketch me out a bit when I see them but don't bother me across the larger spectrum of content and aren't really relevant to the case Pizza presented.

 

#778 -- Lenlo had responded to Zander's question saying that when Lenlo asks the same questions Pizza calls it misdirection yet Pizza's probably going to either answer Zander or ignore him. Pizza bolds the italics above and mocks him by saying it has to be one or the other so Lenlo can't be wrong. ~~It's not like Lenlo had some profound point, but I don't really understand the point of pulling it out of context here.

 

 

#781 -- says Lenlo hasn't done jack to try and find scum yet besides an OMGUS vote, tells him to go try and figure out who the wolves are

 

#782 -- mocks Lenlo saying "HOW IN THE WORLD COULD THAT IDEA NOT BE PRO-TOWN"

 

#785 -- Lenlo had pointed out that he'd quit pushing for two vote counts once people offered legitimate criticism of the idea, Pizza makes fun of him, calls him scum, basically says that the suggestion itself was scummy so stepping away from it changes nothing.

 

#789 -- irt #781, Zander had said that he thinks Lenlo's content amounts to more than just OMGUS. Pizza replies that Lenlo's content consists of suggesting we intentionally lynch a town player, TMI spew that town will control the night kill if a town player gets lynched, smudging Dice, and an OMGUS vote, challenges Zander to prove otherwise.

 

#790 -- irt #785, Lenlo said that when he poked a whole in Pizza's case Pizza just resorted to insults. Pizza explains that Lenlo walking back the idea after people scum read him doesn't poke a hole in anything, tells Lenlo to convince Zander otherwise and not bother persuading Pizza because Pizza is a wolf. ~~dude's been joke claiming scum a lot in this game. I'm not going to not suss you because "you wouldn't do that as scum"...

 

#793 -- irt #789 Znader says it wasn't anything monumental but Len had at least posted a read list and commented on some other people. Pizza says the reads list consists of nothing but consensus towns, a bunch of nulls, and one other scum. Says he might have missed the Tina scum case but gets the premise that Len thinks she's tied to Pizza somehow.

 

#796 -- makes fun of Lenlo

 

#799 -- Lenlo said lynching two VCs wasn't scummy, and lynching town intentionally is scummy but he never advocated that. Pizza responds by asking Lenlo why he kept bringing up the town lynch scenario, says it's going to happen anyway if we don't catch scum, wants to know why it was the premise of several of his posts. Lenlo responds to this reiterating to him that under the condition that living players can't talk at night he still thinks the two VCs would have been a good idea, says what ultimately made him drop it was the rule change.

 

#804 -- Pizza says a large reason he thought Lenlo looked scummy was because he had made a lot of posts without hunting wolves. He says he saw what looked like a scum lean on Dice, and then Lenlo walked it back to a null comment. Says he's tracking so far. But then doesn't understand why Lenlo brought up Dice in their argument. Doesn't understand why Lenlo would interject him there unless he wanted Pizza to think Dice was scummy. Says if this is an honest misunderstanding it's Lenlo's obligation to walk him through it. Says that Lenlo is bad at communicating in real time so he'll slow down the pace a bit.

 

~~This is one too many leaps for me. Pizza got into Lenlo about how wanting two vote counts was scummy. When I called Pizza's argument bad and wouldn't let it drop he suddenly had been bothered by Lenlo's smudge on Dice all along, and he refused to discuss the two VCs topic further. After a while of Lenlo fighting the smudge argument and Zander not buying it, all of a sudden it was Lenlo's lack of scum hunting that had been bothering him along and why was Lenlo bringing Dice into the picture in the first place? But Pizza was the one who made this about Dice, when the two VCs = scummy argument didn't stick.

 

#806 -- points out that very few people are going to read Pizza's argument with Lenlo ~~I did. Sorry?

 

#814 -- I resurrected some more issues with the "two VCs = scummy" line:

 

 

 

 

 

 

A wolf who earns the "second VC" bullet isn't terribly deep though.

I didn't say they would be, but deeper than their partner the probable day lynchee.

 

But you kind of did.

 

In some games there is a possibility of a "deep wolf", a wolf so townie they'll slide right on by.

It was your entrypoint for the argument as to why scum benefit more than town from a runner-up vote count.

 

And I suppose it's a somewhat trivial distinction, but you've yet to convince me that you aren't just making up your answers on the fly.

 

I don't feel like you're understanding my argument, so you're contrasting two disparate parts of it inappropriately because you don't understand what I meant, and think they conflict.

 

How do I explain this. Simplify simplify

 

My premise is in a typical game, there can be a deep wolf sometimes, or they'll try to create one.

 

Suppose that the lynchee is a townie, but thinks the deep wolf is scum. Most people don't think the deep wolf is scum, that's why he's the deep wolf.

 

Suppose the lynchee dies and shoots the deep wolf. Alright, now that's bad, because what you have remaining are wolves that more townies actually think are wolves.

 

So how do you combat it?

 

If you have a heads-up that deep wolf could get shot, you don't hard town read him. Maybe start distancing sooner.

 

Shad, I'm a townie, and this makes absolutely 100 percent perfect sense in my head.

 

I understand my thought processes don't register in other people's brains at times. But I am not making this up on the fly. It is internally consistent, if you start with the premise of, what if the lynchee can suddenly fire back, which is the difference between this game and the usual.

 

A running tally of who the lynchee should shoot if town, could be used to give the wolves a heads up who they shouldn't town-read so hard.

 

Now, that's speaking from the perspective of a guy who has an intuitive feel for the usual dynamics, and my reaction to what the differences here could be, and how I'd exploit them if I'm in the shoes of someone who can't exactly silence a townie by lynching them.

 

How you get from there to where you're at is pure misunderstanding. Or I didn't explain my thought process well which contributed to it. I don't know.

 

It makes sense in my head. If it still doesn't in yours, I gotta shrug. I'll continue explaining if you're still not understanding.

 

 

 

--Basically the argument here is if the wolves know that one player in particular is on to their deep wolf, and that player is in line to get lynched, they'll know to distance in case he wouldn't have posted a reads list otherwise and he hero vigs instead of abiding by the collective NK vote count? Did I get that right? ~~I think it's an... intensely far stretch to believe that this might have crossed scum!Lenlo's mind. Or really anyone's mind prior to Pizza writing this post. <_< And if town!Pizza is really this paranoid about letting scum know who towns are sussing, why does he advocate that we all drop two scum we'd wtl, which is effectively the same thing?

 

#816 -- I had commented to Pizza that I did get the impression he was blowing Lenlo off and just shouting wolf. He explains that he did so where necessary to prevent Lenlo from attempting to derail their conversation.

 

#817 -- if Pizza was scum he would try to deepwolf, not lead a lynch on a town who is guaranteed to shoot him N1. Why would he invest so much time into this argument and his notes if he was planning to blow it all out the gate? ~~I actually came to this realization right at the same time and it really didn't make a bit of sense why he would do this as scum. I said as much in-game.

 

#823 -- Goes into more detail on why he would never do this as scum when Zander asks.

 

#824 -- irt #782 I pointed out that Pizza's suggestion wouldn't be "pro-town" based on the logic he used to argue 2VCs=Scummy. He said he was being sarcastic. Emphasizes that if there is one thing we should take away from the Pizza-Lenlo fight, it's that Pizza can't be scum because he would never do this as scum.

 

#825 -- Lenlo said Pizza probably thought Lenlo's mislynch would have been easier and he was forced to go all-in when the plan didn't pan out at first. Pizza said he could have backed out any time he wanted to and he'd been in complete control of the situation.

 

#826

 

You have to conclude I knew I would die if I managed to make you die.

 

To think otherwise is preposterous.

~~Should I be bothered that this statement assumes Lenlo is town?

 

#835 -- Zander had asked what Pizza would do if Lenlo flipped town ~~one of Lenlo's 'derailment' questions during the fight~~ Pizza says he would be embarassed and surely be the night kill, but he wouldn't be terribly bothered because "that's also 2 townies versus 1 wolf controlling the night lynch on night 2"

 

#866

 

 

 

 

Btw, I responded to Pizza's "Please to village Lenlo" but he hasnt gotten back to me yet. Lookin forward to it.

You reached the Yates Event Horizon.

 

So scummy and with dishonest arguments that for pages and pages, and hours and hours, I just think you're caught-er and caught-er scum, and then it dawns on me that you're a townie because a scum wouldn't do X.

 

Why "Yates" event horizon, because he faked a guilty result on me in game three, and made a mistake with his leans list which added an extra person to the game, hilariously, and it got worse and worse for hours and hours, so I just assumed he was caught and smirked my happy smirk and kept taking potshots at him here and there, until dat moment when I saw he had a legitimate reason to act that way.

 

If you were a scumbag, you probably would have walked away a few posts after the screw me post. I don't get what is accomplished by continued camping in the thread after all that.

 

I'm not saying you'd be scared of me or something, as a wolf, it just isn't accomplishing any kind of scum aim.

 

While I can't clear you for the same reason why I should look town objectively, since I was the aggressor in our tiff, there's a different kind of futility at work in that I think that a very large number of scumbags would not be sitting here right now still talking to me. It's going nowhere and you had a natural exit point, several of them, and you're still camping.

 

I've never used this town-tell before and may never again. I also can't say you're fully clean.

 

But that washes away a ton of that suspicion.

 

Unvote

 

I really wanted to go to bed thinking I've accomplished something more major than partly clearing a scum read. I can't say that. But it has been useful to me, particularly if this is correct.

 

PS- Yates Event Horizon is now trademarked, and probably won't ever be used as a town-tell again.

 

 

 

--clears Lenlo as twtbaw and because Lenlo didn't back down when realistically any scum would have in the scenario, says it's the first and possibly last time he clears someone for this reason and makes an exceptionally big deal about it

 

 

 

~~This is where I'm completely ready and willing to lynch him. I think his treatment of Lenlo up to this point was pretty intensely scummy. He blew off every counterpoint Zander and I made building up to his argument with Lenlo, he crafted everything Lenlo said into an excuse to call him scummy, he repeatedly changed the reasons he was calling Lenlo scummy to suit the moment, and it all built up to the moment of being able to convincingly state that he would never do this as scum. Job done, Lenlo was free to go with a lofty proclamation that amounted to very little.

 

No, I don't think scum!Pizza would be so eager to mislynch Lenlo that he would throw his game doing it on D1. Pizza is right. That would be stupid. Do I think he might pick low hanging fruit to go ape on for the opportunity to convince us he can't be scum? It's not like anyone was getting speed lynched with four players online. The fight felt fabricated. The unvote felt fabricated. The reason he can 'never be scum' dissolves to nothing if there was never a real commitment to lynching Lenlo in the first place. If a player is trying to trick people into town reading him instead of actually hunting scum, like he did pretty effectively in our last two games together, that's probably a sign.

 

And that's where I'm stopping. It's almost 4am. I recognize that I'm missing a full day of content from him afterwards. If my reasons are outdated, figure it out. I'll try my best to keep going when I am able.

 

 

Shad's putting in some work here but its not finished and he's already locked his vote in on Pizza

[Nolder]

 

Cory you should ask each of us 5 which ONE other person in that 5 we'd like to kill.

Or something like that. The results could be telling I think

 

I will answer my own question and say...Tina.

I can't figure her out and it's bothering me.

I'd rather she were dead than anyone else on that list even the inactive guy tbh.

 

What do you think about Besie and Shad?

 

I wouldn't hate it if they bit a bullet either but not my first choices. 

 

I felt good about Shad early on but nothing since has read blue to me.

I didn't like how he engaged me and then...kind of disappeared.

I already mentioned this before I think but it felt to me like our conversation ended prematurely.

Maybe that was just me though idk.

 

Besie I don't like in relation to Lenlo mostly.

Which might be kind of unfair considering I don't know Lenlo is scum but I don't care.

This is more a gut read than anything else. If Lenlo were to flip town I think I'd still feel uneasy about her slot.

[Zander?]

This is what I wrote in notepad. Completely unfinished thoughts. We have to head out again and oh boy oh boy my wife found a cat on a back round an hour ago so I have that to deal with.

 

I'm only even posting this so you know I really do exist:

 

 

Her main argument against Lenlo is the same smudging Dice line that Pizza took, along with a possible TMI about night actions. I don't have time to see which of them suggested it first, but Tina seems to think she did:

 

 

Tina -1 Early bad stuff (2 posts) mitigated a bit, possible distancing from Lenlo in progress. But, hey, looking better.

I have no idea what these numbers means but I don´t like your comment about me. You just followed me on Lenlo but think I might be distancing. It seems really weird to me.

 

and isn't particularly happy about how he handles it. Pizza had picked up on the argument while simultaneously calling Tina scummy for suggesting it. Well, yeah, I can see town being bothered by that.

 

She reiterates her points on Lenlo, says she had a question for Zander but will have to ask it later, that's about it on to the 27th.

 

27th she kicks off the game with thoughts on everybody. Reiterates her earlier thoughts about Lenlo but likes #812 and is considering unvoting. Doesn't like that Pizza tunneled Lenlo and didn't understand his unvote. ~~Does she never follow through with why did Pizza call her Lenlo suspicion scummy yet copy it?

 

 

 

I brought up Dices math because to me it seemed like that part of your case on me depended on the fact that I was subtly laying out that Dice was scum so everyone else could lynch him for me.

 

I brought it up because I wanted to show that was not the case. There were two different convos going on there. One about mechanics and the other, later on, about Dices reactions. During the mechanics talk I wasnt trying to resolve his slot, I was focusing purely on the mechanics because I like to focus on one topic at a time. After that talk, Dice voted me because I annoyed him/wasnt listening to his opinion even though his math was for his logic was horrible. Its at this point that I get into it with Dice, because his vote on me was garbage and at the time he wasnt reacting very well at all.

 

I did not want our conversation to focus on Dice, I did not want to shift our conversation to Dice, if that is what you thought I was doing. I wanted to reach back to my convo with him and show why I was getting into with him and why I was frustrated with him that I used the bold and caps since that seems to be a good bit of your problem with me.

 

To be frank, I am quite frustrated with you atm because you go on and on about honesty with posts but from my perspective you seem to be twisting my words. Yeah, I dont compose my posts as much as you, but thats because I dont want to limit what I post. I used to compose my posts, or atleast try to, and it always lead to people saying I was trying to hard to sound town, that everything I said sounded forced or unnatural. So I decided to switch to the other side and just say whats on my mind. Yeah it has its problems, but its less problems than what I did before and the problems also arnt as bad.

 

 

Likes Zander and Cory but doesn't give much reason, likes BFG's level of activity but doesn't think she's really following through. Nikon null, doesn't remember my posts, Nolder laying low, hasn't paid attention to Besie, thinks Sooh is waffling a bit on Lenlo but hasn't read all her posts, Dice started towny but hasn't been active since.

 

~~That's quite a lot of null/didn't read/this player hasn't said enough yet. Pot Kettle though maybe, I dunno.

 

Lots of focus on the vote counts.

 

Asks Pizza if he unvoted Lenlo because Lenlo fought back.

 

 

 

Throws some dirt at Tina...possibly distancing?

 

TLDR

 

Shad using a lot of AtE

 

Shad's involvement/lack of solidified reads/ and kind of Meh attitude is not what I expect from Town!Shad

 

Didn't like the fact he voted Pizza without finishing is ISO on Pizza especially since Pizza flipped Town.

 

Weak poss soft claim.

 

Pretty certain Shad's a Wolf

 

Like between Shad/Tina/Nikon I feel very strongly we hit at least 2 wolves.

[Zander?]

Finished with Besie's ISO in both games.

Going to lie down and think about it more and hopefully the truth comes to me in a dream.

 

NIGHT FRANDS

 

 

Night brother and interested to hear what you come back with here!!!!!!

[Nolder]

Like as much detail about what you've thought about this game as possible.

 

I don't care what you think of their opinions being right/wrong or whatever, just want to know what's on the mental page you are keeping in your head for them.

Sorry I missed this before making the last post.

 

Shad I can't give as much detail on because he's another player I skim a lot.

Probably more so than Nomi because at least Nomi knows how to separate his thoughts whereas Shad will just throw a block of text at you.

I will say this, I've found Shad's play middling this game compared to the last one we just played. 

It's not bad but it's not great either. He doesn't seem to have the same drive.

Granted I think he said he was sick somewhere? So he has an excuse but I also feel like Shad is one of those kind of obsessive players that wouldn't let something like that get in his way either. I feel like these kinds of thoughts are unfair and a lot of conjecture that can't be proven one way or another and something that Shad may not even be able to control regardless but that's what I'm thinking.

 

Like his play is meh but I wan't to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

I don't have the same detailed feelings about Besie. My thoughts on her are what I already said.

It's mainly to do with how she's reacted to Lenlo.

[Nolder]

If I had to pick one villager out of the five it'd probably be Nolder.

 

With that said, the gap between him and BFG/Zander/Lenlo/Dice/Sooh is large.

 

I believe in the line.

Still think Lenlo is obv scum and BFG is your deep wolf.

Time will tell though.

[Cory Caboose]

So here's one of the problems I am having with Besie.

 

Yes, her tone is fine. We know already she's capable of faking tone as a wolf, but still, her tone is fine. Understood. She's got an acerbic little edge to her posts, she has fight and vigor and when she gets pushed around she can get sort of prickly.

 

So the question for me on evaluation becomes is her tone genuine? Does her edge exists because she's a frustrated villager who is responding to baseless arguments against her, or is she simply playing the role of "offended villager"?

 

There's a little trick that the great CPHoyaids taught me that I sometimes go through when I evaluate tone. It's called the "well, is it real test?"

Take for example the post Besie made at BFG that BFG mentioned earlier:

 

 

@ BFG

I dislike that you say I go with the flow.

 

I'm not going with the flow. I'm making my own deductions from my own ways of reasoning. The only way I'm going with the flow is in reading, understanding and agreeing with several people's arguments. Including you. Do you WANT me to make a very random list? My list differs conciderably from Pizza's. Many people are at different alignments when compared to Cory and Zander's, with the main being Shad, I believe. And you just went and moved Shad to null-town, so I don't see how that's a problem. The only other thing I did was to move Len quite a bit, and you could possibly have seen that as going with the flow. It was not. It was my thoughts about things he said early game. And once again, no. I'm not referring to the "secret info" that Cory saw and Zander apparently sees too. It's my own, and I actually added even more to Len's villa after his argument with Pizza, and Pizza's reasoning.

If you want to say that I'm sheeping (cause that's what go with the flow is!) then at least give proper examples. I'm NOT sheeping my top scum read. I'm not even sheeping my top town reads, except on Tina. Want me to stop going with the flow? Then I refuse to vote someone who I have no experience with and can see no reason for their negative alignment.

Read this post carefully and note the attitude. There is visible frustration here. Closed sentences "I'm not [etc.], It was not [etc.]" - accusatory glances "You just went and..." that posit a comparison for a justification of behavior. "Then I refuse..."; you get it, you can read.

 

This is the post of someone a little ticked off and that ticked-offedness coming through in their posting style.

 

This post was made at 6:08.

 

Besie posted again three minutes later:

 

 

 

And them my last catchup post.
 

 

 

 

id vote shad  not pizza

Im fine with Shad but why not Pizza DIce?

cause i think he is town and because half the arguments for lynching him seems to be "but hes hard to read! lets play safe"   not a fan

Fair enough

But I don't play safe I PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!!!



And in order to do that I have to find 3 wolves.  I think theres more reasons to vote Pizza then what your referring to. But I'm happy to roll Shad or less happily roll Tina cause flips will make solving this much easier for us.

Mmmm.

 

 

Ugh.

Conflicted.

Noooooo! WRONG GIF! Zander!

THE BOULDER IS CONFLICTED!

I'm not.
I want to vote Pizza.
For reasons already given. He's been my top scum for a while, and I feel more confident voting him as scum than any else atm. Call it POE, if you must.

 

 

no one can actually EXPLAIN zander...

Im pretty easy to figure out....like on my gravestone it will say these 6 things:

He Loved God
He Loved his Children
He Loved Bacon
He Loved Beer
He Loved To Town
And by God He Lunched a Hell of A lot of Wolves.

 

Now Zander while he is going to sleep, tell meeeee!

Curiosity killed the cat.

 

 

 

 

id vote shad  not pizza

Im fine with Shad but why not Pizza DIce?

cause i think he is town and because half the arguments for lynching him seems to be "but hes hard to read! lets play safe"   not a fan

Dice so towny!

Yeah I don't see how this makes him towny AT ALL. At all. There's so many other factors that contribute to Pizza being the most scummy.

Are you, Sooh, and Dice, w/w?



I'm voting Pizza. I have no problem switching that to Sooh or Dice. Sooh more so than Dice. Can't shake my distrust of them.

I don't like that lynching Pizza is a definite lynch on Shad. I still have not done the iso, though. I'll do that now that I've caught up. I'm trusting my top town reads again, that have said that shad is scummy. And I don't like that. I want my own opinions.



And I just edited this post so that I didn't vote Pizza because 1) it'll put him at -1 and 2) because I want to hear what BFG says first.

 

 

In here, she is joking, confident, ready to give opinions.

 

CPHoya posited something like the following: "You can tell when somebody is faking tone when there is no linear consistency to it. If someone who is specifically using tonal elements of their play to attack or defend and then act completely differently about something else, it's very likely that their attack / defense was in-genuine, as it was concealed to a single event and did not effect them in any real or noticeable way."

 

So if we're considering Besie a villager because of tonal elements of her game, here's my challenge.

I don't think Besie genuinely gets flustered about BFG's criticism of her play during the game and then, with absolutely zero forward consideration of what she just posted, jokingly finishes her catch-up like literally nothing happened. There's a mood shift that only exists if you look for it, and the only real GUESS I can make at why the mood switches so quickly is that the original "snarling defense" was an act meant to deceive and not genuine.

 

And I don't know what motive Besie has to deceive BFG as a villager, but I can think otherwise.

 

Just a snapshot of my brain and the things I consider for all of you to think about.

[Zander?]

FWIW- I can get legit mad in game like I did with Yates in Diablo but keep it out of following posts as I tend to focus my anger.  I'm not saying that youre wrong here at all brother.  I'm just saying that its possible to do so.  For me at least.

[Zander?]

Also fwiw theres another pretty basic and simple explanation but I'll let her answer for herself without me giving her the answer.

[Cory Caboose]

I will say this, I've found Shad's play middling this game compared to the last one we just played. 

 

It's not bad but it's not great either. He doesn't seem to have the same drive.

 

Granted I think he said he was sick somewhere? So he has an excuse but I also feel like Shad is one of those kind of obsessive players that wouldn't let something like that get in his way either. 

 

The red is the important part.

 

As for "middling", this would be the least involved I have ever seen him as a villager to some degree. I checked back to AoL and while his activity was lower in comparison he just had ten times more conviction.

 

As for BFG, I'm not going to even entertain than. Mafia 101: People who have a great deal of experience aren't suddenly going to develop one way randomly out of nowhere.

 

Interested and resolute villagers don't suddenly become flimsy and uninterested when they still have enough thread presence (Shad has been here, sick or not).

 

In the same regard, BFG doesn't morph into a Top Tier Tom level wolf overnight.

[Cory Caboose]

FWIW- I can get legit mad in game like I did with Yates in Diablo but keep it out of following posts as I tend to focus my anger.  I'm not saying that youre wrong here at all brother.  I'm just saying that its possible to do so.  For me at least.

 

There's an internal difference between when you get mad as a wolf and when you get mad as a villager. It's much easier to distance from it as a wolf since ultimately that person is correct. As a villager, you are an innocent under attack.

 

This concept is basically what the CCSOHW is founded on. Look at Shad? Why is he a wolf? He's completely emotionally detached from the game. He can't help but get his heart involved when he's a villager, he leaves it all out there on the court. He doesn't ask to ride the bench for a quarter because his toe hurts, he wants to be out there.