World's End Mafia - town wins comprehensively

[Niniel]

I have read your posts but I won't be able to answer today. Will get back to you tomorrow.

[Zander?]

I have read your posts but I won't be able to answer today. Will get back to you tomorrow.

 

Ya I dont blame you.  If I was you Id take me time to carefully craft your answers as well.....

 

 

[Nolder]

Ouch.

[Zander?]

Ouch.

 

Well he sure does have a way with words!!!!

 

lolololololololol

[Guest]

I'm going to finish reading before going to bed but I'd like to apologise in advance for not being here tomorrow. We're going fishing.

 

If you, Pizza, use all your time as you said you would, then I'll be back for D2.

[Guest]

Okay and I'm caught up. Not much has changed for me. I'm sorry that you're a droid, Pizza, but you're still there to help at night phase. Not sorry that I helped lynch you - I'm a bit upset that you didn't talk to me when you said you would. I'm glad that you're still here to talk to at night time for opinions though.

 

My list still stands, but posts by Tina has moved her slightly down for me (p109; dislike reasoning), and posts by Sooh moved her slightly up (p108; like her reasoning).

 

Anything else I can answer before I go?

[Guest]

 

 

Ouch.

Well he sure does have a way with words!!!!

 

lolololololololol

#thewordsarehard

[Shad_]

This is what I wrote in notepad. Completely unfinished thoughts. We have to head out again and oh boy oh boy my wife found a cat on a back round an hour ago so I have that to deal with.

 

I'm only even posting this so you know I really do exist:

 

 

Her main argument against Lenlo is the same smudging Dice line that Pizza took, along with a possible TMI about night actions. I don't have time to see which of them suggested it first, but Tina seems to think she did:

 

 

Tina -1 Early bad stuff (2 posts) mitigated a bit, possible distancing from Lenlo in progress. But, hey, looking better.

I have no idea what these numbers means but I don´t like your comment about me. You just followed me on Lenlo but think I might be distancing. It seems really weird to me.

 

and isn't particularly happy about how he handles it. Pizza had picked up on the argument while simultaneously calling Tina scummy for suggesting it. Well, yeah, I can see town being bothered by that.

 

She reiterates her points on Lenlo, says she had a question for Zander but will have to ask it later, that's about it on to the 27th.

 

27th she kicks off the game with thoughts on everybody. Reiterates her earlier thoughts about Lenlo but likes #812 and is considering unvoting. Doesn't like that Pizza tunneled Lenlo and didn't understand his unvote. ~~Does she never follow through with why did Pizza call her Lenlo suspicion scummy yet copy it?

 

 

 

I brought up Dices math because to me it seemed like that part of your case on me depended on the fact that I was subtly laying out that Dice was scum so everyone else could lynch him for me.

 

I brought it up because I wanted to show that was not the case. There were two different convos going on there. One about mechanics and the other, later on, about Dices reactions. During the mechanics talk I wasnt trying to resolve his slot, I was focusing purely on the mechanics because I like to focus on one topic at a time. After that talk, Dice voted me because I annoyed him/wasnt listening to his opinion even though his math was for his logic was horrible. Its at this point that I get into it with Dice, because his vote on me was garbage and at the time he wasnt reacting very well at all.

 

I did not want our conversation to focus on Dice, I did not want to shift our conversation to Dice, if that is what you thought I was doing. I wanted to reach back to my convo with him and show why I was getting into with him and why I was frustrated with him that I used the bold and caps since that seems to be a good bit of your problem with me.

 

To be frank, I am quite frustrated with you atm because you go on and on about honesty with posts but from my perspective you seem to be twisting my words. Yeah, I dont compose my posts as much as you, but thats because I dont want to limit what I post. I used to compose my posts, or atleast try to, and it always lead to people saying I was trying to hard to sound town, that everything I said sounded forced or unnatural. So I decided to switch to the other side and just say whats on my mind. Yeah it has its problems, but its less problems than what I did before and the problems also arnt as bad.

 

 

Likes Zander and Cory but doesn't give much reason, likes BFG's level of activity but doesn't think she's really following through. Nikon null, doesn't remember my posts, Nolder laying low, hasn't paid attention to Besie, thinks Sooh is waffling a bit on Lenlo but hasn't read all her posts, Dice started towny but hasn't been active since.

 

~~That's quite a lot of null/didn't read/this player hasn't said enough yet. Pot Kettle though maybe, I dunno.

 

Lots of focus on the vote counts.

 

Asks Pizza if he unvoted Lenlo because Lenlo fought back.

 

[Zander?]

 

 

Ouch.

Well he sure does have a way with words!!!!

 

lolololololololol

#thewordsarehard

 

 

VOUCH

[Zander?]

Okay and I'm caught up. Not much has changed for me. I'm sorry that you're a droid, Pizza, but you're still there to help at night phase. Not sorry that I helped lynch you - I'm a bit upset that you didn't talk to me when you said you would. I'm glad that you're still here to talk to at night time for opinions though.

 

My list still stands, but posts by Tina has moved her slightly down for me (p109; dislike reasoning), and posts by Sooh moved her slightly up (p108; like her reasoning).

 

Anything else I can answer before I go?

 

gun to head:

 

who would you shoot tonight and brief reason why.

 

who would you lynch tomorrow and a brief reason why.

[Guest]

 

 

Okay and I'm caught up. Not much has changed for me. I'm sorry that you're a droid, Pizza, but you're still there to help at night phase. Not sorry that I helped lynch you - I'm a bit upset that you didn't talk to me when you said you would. I'm glad that you're still here to talk to at night time for opinions though.

 

My list still stands, but posts by Tina has moved her slightly down for me (p109; dislike reasoning), and posts by Sooh moved her slightly up (p108; like her reasoning).

 

Anything else I can answer before I go?

gun to head:

 

who would you shoot tonight and brief reason why.

 

who would you lynch tomorrow and a brief reason why.

Mmmm.

 

I'd prolly shoot the person who is probably deepwolfing, as that person will not be lynched by the group as a whole.

 

Or... wait...

 

 

Shoot Dice.

 

Because I don't trust him. He's gained a lot of favour from a lot of people, but I don't see it. I also disliked his reasoning for voting on page 88. He's been absent, so I'll see if he comes back whether my mind changes or not.

 

 

 

Lynch... one of my scum. Probably Sooh or Nikon, although Tina is now in my null-scum as well. I was wrong about Pizza. Makes me almost want to tinfoil my entire maybe-scum team.

[Guest]

Ftfm: the person who I think is probably deepwolfing. I may or may not guess that one wrong anyway, since there's so many "very town" people in this game.

[Guest]

Almost want to tinfoil. Almost. But nah. I'll see how I feel when I wake up tomorrow.

[dicetosser1]

Alright. I've only looked at games here in the BT so far, and what I've found is that I town read Dice in Mass effect when he was scum, and I also read him town in Cliche mafia until Cory came in and cleared everything up for me. I wasn't able to find a good reasoning for my town read of Dice in Cliche, but I suspect that's because I was a SK in that game and didn't really need to substantiate my reads.

 

Need more examples?

 

Dont mention cliche.......shudders and sobs.

 

 

You're not on my radar anyway. It's a tinfoil I probably won't bother to investigate until I see Nikon resolved which will probably happen pre-d3 if God is willing through a variety of means.

 

asked and answered

 

So Tina is the wolf I let get away yesterday. Was digging at Ragnarok because her pushing of Sooh reminded me of her case on Leelou in that game and clarified.

 

Mostly a fake case built on "OMGUS" and needle reasoning. She's not afraid to case as scum, but this is what she pursues.

 

 

 

If im right and Tina flips scum Im going to tell you I told you so. just FYI. :D

 

 

 

 

Okay and I'm caught up. Not much has changed for me. I'm sorry that you're a droid, Pizza, but you're still there to help at night phase. Not sorry that I helped lynch you - I'm a bit upset that you didn't talk to me when you said you would. I'm glad that you're still here to talk to at night time for opinions though.

 

My list still stands, but posts by Tina has moved her slightly down for me (p109; dislike reasoning), and posts by Sooh moved her slightly up (p108; like her reasoning).

 

Anything else I can answer before I go?

gun to head:

 

who would you shoot tonight and brief reason why.

 

who would you lynch tomorrow and a brief reason why.

Mmmm.

 

I'd prolly shoot the person who is probably deepwolfing, as that person will not be lynched by the group as a whole.

 

Or... wait...

 

 

Shoot Dice.

 

Because I don't trust him. He's gained a lot of favour from a lot of people, but I don't see it. I also disliked his reasoning for voting on page 88. He's been absent, so I'll see if he comes back whether my mind changes or not.

 

 

 

Lynch... one of my scum. Probably Sooh or Nikon, although Tina is now in my null-scum as well. I was wrong about Pizza. Makes me almost want to tinfoil my entire maybe-scum team.

 

 

 

Besie wants to shoot Town I see.

[dicetosser1]

@pizza 

 

my choice for your vote would be Shad followed by Tina but id prefer you take shad and leave tina for the lynch

[Cory Caboose]

home

 

tired

 

sup

[dicetosser1]

hands cory a coffee cause he sounds like he needs it

[Cory Caboose]

i'm really burned out and demotivated and sort of morose

 

need another slap in the face

[dicetosser1]

slaps cory

 

 

 

will insert gif when home

[Cory Caboose]

Alright I am probably going to start repeating myself but I need to sort of think out loud and go through everything in my head just to keep my mind at ease.

 

BFG is a villager. The reasons for this are hilariously numerous and hard to describe but the easiest way I can say it is that I've read a great deal of games where BFG has played in either alignment and if BFG is a wolf here she is playing by far the greatest wolf game she has ever played by such an outstanding margin that no other performance even comes close. She would have had to perfectly replicate the way she thinks as a villager, channel motivation beyond what she's usually capable of, and just generally taken numerous angles irt to specifically me and Zander that are so fancy and out of her general wolf approach that it's literally a perfect storm of her suddenly becoming the perfect wolf. I'm not sure if she's even really capable of that; a lot of players aren't. There is absolutely no way she is a wolf here and I am willing to put the house on that read and if I die tonight my greatest advice during the next day phase is to make sure you listen to everything she says. She's an extremely competent villager and thread reader and deserves an opportunity to take a village leadership mantle which she may not take by herself because sometimes she listens to her doubt.

 

Zander is very likely a villager. One major reason above applies; if Zander is a wolf, this is the best wolf game he's ever played by a longshot. I wolfed with him in The Matrix and saw firsthand his general wolfing abilities but even then I noticed several flaws or paths of argumentation that didn't hold up to his general villager mindset. Literally the only problem I have is that I think he's more capable of rapid development than a player like BFG who has 40+ games under her belt already and has become, for the most part, the player she'll be for the most part (like me or most players that have a great deal of experience).

 

I don't feel like I really need to describe the isolated elements, but it's simple things; his aggressive persistence against Pizza and numerous other players; his continued scoping and refusal to accept anything at face value; his willingness to reassess and change his reads with new information; his urge to move forward rather than be complacent. He is going to be high-volume in either role, but his content level vs. filler level is another matter outright and his content level here is extraordinarily high. I think he's just a villager outright but I guess it's always worth reconsideration considering his continually growing development as a player, but it's nothing I would pursue any time soon. I'm not going to hold him accountable for the Pizza lynch; it was what it was, and I've been in spots where I have a lot of correct reads but pursue the wrong one and have to deal with it blowing up in my face and I have no interest to push Zander into that minefield. He deserves a chance to re-calibrate a little, but you can't be afraid to be wrong.

[Cory Caboose]

Lenlo has made a couple of "cringers" in this game but I think that has to do with him being a more classically heteroclitic thinker than him being a wolf. He's not afraid to say what's on his mind in general, and I think one of the biggest issues with his wolf game is A) he picks at little things and forgets the scope of the game and B) is more self-concerned than outwardly concerned. I can't give so much more to this read besides a couple of things I think  he's really unlikely to do as a wolf; there were two noticeable "derpclear" attempts back on d1 that most people pointed out and I think in general his wolf game is cleaner than that - he doesn't try to coast by with tricks, he likes to get by on making cases and playing a more healthy and respectable game. He's shifted between green and light green in my head multiple times but I think that's more me being unsure than him really doing anything worth devaluing the read. Right now I'm going by what feels correct and it feels correct to ignore my doubt for now and give him the lean I feel is a better reflection of his alignment, specifically that he is unlikely to be a wolf here.

 

Things get harder after this.

[Cory Caboose]

Dice is someone I typically read well but I will admit I've had some struggles in reading him over the past handful of games I've watched him. I spec'd British Monarchy (?) where he was a wolf and legitimately thought he was a villager for a good period of the game and I misread him when he was a villager in the Middle Earth game where I was mentoring Sooh. He's not a perfect read for me anymore, probably a part of which is simply because I've always been vocal about telling him what he does in each alignment and he's learned to mask it better   

 

With that said, there have been several points in this game where I've felt he was a villager. His defense of Pizza late d1 felt a lot like the way I've seen him defend players who are getting ~heat for reasons he doesn't understand, there's a general lack of compliance to his reads and he's been active and present. I have not had that "a-ha! dice is a villager!" moment that I can sometimes have with him just yet, but I'm wondering if that stems more from my ability to read him not being as strong as I used to or if there's something I'm not noticing here. Gun to head I'd say he's a villager, but I wish I were more confident in this read than I am. And I feel I could be if the circumstances were different.

[Cory Caboose]

Sooh I think would be far higher on this last if I didn't have some intense onset paranoia of her in general and I think I approximate her wolf game to be better than it really is because she's fooled me once or twice for some sustained period of time. I used to have a personal rule of "if everyone else is scumreading Sooh and you are townreading her, it's probably a you problem and not a they problem", but that hasn't really worked as a rule and the fact of the matter is that when she does fool me she usually does it at the expense of other people reading her; specifically, in her communication and appeals to me.

She hasn't really made appeals to me this game, which is a major point in her favor. Her defensiveness and frustration are things I associate more heavily to her villager game, but for the most part she's combated it by trying to make reads rather than by fighting her accusers. Her posts overall make me feel she's scoping the game honestly and attempt to figure it out, though struggling a good deal at times. I think her take on Pizza was genuine; she for the most part was fine with his wagon building until that early onset of frustrated posts. Either she was a wolf empathetic to the suffering of her beau or a villager seeing the true colors show of someone she understand the thought process of to some degree and it ringed like the latter to me more than former. 

 

I'd actually have her as a more confident village read than dice, to be perfectly honest. She's close to green, but not there yet for me.

[Cory Caboose]

So I guess this is the "line". People above this line are the people I'd bet on being villagers more often than not and if I had to solve the game today I'd pick the five above as my villagers and ultimately move on with my life and chalk it up to a bad read if I am wrong.

 

People below this list are generally where the wolves reside. I'm going to make dinner and then start chewing on the remaining five, in no order:

 

BlomBesie

Tina 

Nikon

Nolder

Shad

 

[Cory Caboose]

Besie is a poor soul who I have such low confidence reading in general that maybe she deserve to be above the village line for her dedication and willingness to be vocal with her reads. She has been present, active and forthcoming; all good qualities, all things I would usually considering more likely to come from a villager, and all somewhat more developed than her play in Diablo.

 

But I guess what concerns me the most is that Besie seems pretty naturally taken to deception and she could simply be playing a good wolf game here. I'm the sort of player that sticks with what he knows, and I don't think this out of her general wolfing capabilities and it's not like I have a real reference for her village game to compare it to since this would be her first village game ever. There's a part of me that pokes my brain saying "wouldn't she be more lost if this was really her first villager game?" because honestly villaging has such a higher difficulty curve than wolfing does and I don't really know how to process that. Either she's a natural in both roles or she's developed her wolf game a little since her first which seems perfectly reasonable to me. I don't know which it is, and I can't really get into her head. Probably a place I should read more heavily and try to understand because I have literally zero confidence in a read here and I don't know where I'm going to get one from.