World's End Mafia - town wins comprehensively

[Nolder]

You hate letting wolves go free, meaning you think he's not a wolf.

 

He's not blue because of his opening.

 

So he's........what?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'll reverse the order.

 

If I die today, I'm shooting Shad instead of Tina, and today, I'm attempting to lynch Tina instead of Shad.

 

Unvote

 

Vote TinaHel

 

I need townie heroes who will make this happen.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You hate letting wolves go free, meaning you think he's not a wolf.

 

He's not blue because of his opening.

 

So he's........what?

More likely to be a villager than a wolf. It's just...

 

Look, Nolder, in the previous game, I was incensed by some of your argumentation methods. I hate, hate, hate dishonest argumentation methods.

 

I consider things like red herrings, changing the subject, and specious arguments to be hella scummy.

 

Sometimes, however, people who like to argue and simply want to win by force will use such methods and think they're entirely justified in doing so.

 

Sometimes people don't know how to argue properly.

 

It's not a crime. But it does make it flipping difficult to read someone when they're arguing with me that way.

 

I consider it scummy as all hell, but it's not a reliable tell, admittedly.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Seriously, don't lynch me.

If you lynch Tina, you won't die today or tonight by my dead android hand. Simplest course of action.

[Nolder]

So you're saying the way Lenlo argued was scummy but you don't feel that it's reliable enough to attribute to his alignment?

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

cory   cause ive done like 20 pages of reading   can u give me like 4-5 lines why you want to lynch pizza?

 

Here's one line: I feel like if Pizza was a villager I'd have 4-5 reasons to not lynch him.

 

I can't clear myself as well in every game. I did try hard this time.

 

Look at how I slank as a wolf on day one. The posts might be there (sometimes, not always!) but there's no passion, there's such limited aggression. I never would have gotten this much attention on me if I had done that.

 

I can avoid the suspicion if I'm a wolf, I always do Cory. That's not my objective here.

 

I am also quite fine with being under fire. I have little (not nothing) to lose as a townie under pressure and threat of death. It's not a loss.

 

Dead wolves on day one often leads to a loss, particularly if wolf number two goes down that night or the next day.

 

I wouldn't risk it here. I'm risky but I'm smarter than that. There's no need to plop down the entire payroll as a bet on the first hand, when you don't have good cards.

 

Day one is the worst cards.

[Sooh]

I try to save my strongest villager reads. As of right now those are Zander, BFG and Dice with a side of Cory. Neither of them are in danger. 

 

I'm less certain of Shad's guilt than Tina's, that's why my vote is where it is. I might change it closer to DL, but I won't change it to Pizza. Not today. 

[BFG]

Tina

 

null-mafia

 

TLDR: Ugh, the worst thing is the vote thing that Pizza brought up, but given her recognition of voting 'patterns' early game I'm wondering if it's more likely to be subconscious from town rather than from mafia. She's done 'work' for herself, not under pressure. But I'm not seeing sustained interest in solving yet. she's not spending time in thread talking to people (but I don't remember this from PF either, so it's not necessarily scummy). Her responses to people seem fine, but generally /meh I don't have the experience to know if she ramps up or not in later phases and know that she's been lynched Day 1 as town before and sussed, if not lynched as mafia day 1. No idea which this is.

 

And as much as I hate to say it, there are people I feel significantly better about than Tina, and that plays into this read

 

 

 

Can't remember a lot from her and sort of feel she's been POE'd into being suspicious rather than anything else. Possibly odd approach to Cory.

 

 

Votes Dice (joke) seems relaxed on thread early. Happy to be playing, but wary of the catch-up involved (I don't think this ever gets mentioned again which is a slight bonus)

 

On reread I like her post on Lenlo, I like that she's looking at his actions and not jumping on the mechanics talk with the rest of us. I also don't hate the early read on Dice, or the way it's given.

 

Responds to Cory directly saying he's wrong and she'll probe it (hopefully)

 

Doesn't like Pizzas comment about her given that he followed her onto Lenlo...

 

Doesn't understand Shad's comment about no NK? And I'm pretty sure she follows this up a couple of times

 

Responds to Lenlo and holds her position

 

I need to look at this with context on reread (which probably won't happen before deadline). She responds to someone asking why 'Lenlo pushing Dice as a suspect without voting' would be scummy with 'because she's seen mafia do that. That's an obvious reply that I love and will make me look sideways at whoever asked it. She doesn't like Pizza's tunnel.

 

From that initial list she seems to have Zander as town, Cory as maybe town, Dice as town, uneasy about Sooh and everyone else is some sort of null, unsure, need to ISO.

 

ISO's Sooh and doesn't like that she's null on so many players, this is consistent with her reasoning for not liking me this game

 

ISO's Besie and doesn't like how she's going with the flow

 

Leaves me in my own category XD

 

Nolder's null

 

There's the unvote off Lenlo, while finding Soon scummy and not having looked further into Lenlo/Pizza which reads oddly. It's a little WIFOMy but given Tina's preoccupation with votes and nudges early game, I think she'd be more self aware if mafia, but I don't think I'd be happy to clear her for this.

 

There are a number of people who seem to be reading Tina based off how she 'normally' reads them, I don't know what to make of this, part of me is doing the same wrt how she's acting towards Cory, but I don't really like the argument.

 

Znder reacts to her post on me and Besie saying there are people he thinks are scummier. I didn't really understand this at the time and I don't now, especially given that he 'likes' Nolder list for lack of consensus

 

Shad feels into the game and not trying to 'make' things scummy, leans town

 

Still hasn't read Lenlo-Pizza

 

Concludes:

 

Town: Tina, Cory, Sander, Dice (from early posts)

Null-town: Shad

Null: Nikon, BFG, Nolder

Null-mafia: Besie

Mafia: Sooh, Lenlo, Pizza

 

Given she still hasn't re-read Pizza/Lenlo I'm not sure how to feel about her putting them in her worst category.

 

"Right now I think Lenlo's posts are more scummy and Pizza's behaviour is more scummy" don't hate this though.

 

Responds to Lenlo expanding on her thoughts on him and Lenlo. Doesn't understand Pizza's reasoning on her, sort of understands his thoughts on Shad.

 

Votes Pizza for bad reasoning on her

 

Asks Sooh if her vote on Tina is OMGUS?

 

She responds to my 'list' sort of neutrally. My reasons for Tina being at the bottom are fairly poor and I'd expect a more argumentative response to it. I can't say it's meta based off one game, but the reasons for lynching her in PF were awful-none existent (with hindsight) and I'm not seeing that same response here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would like as many people as possible to do the following for me:

 

In order from likeliest town -> scum list the follow four players:

 

Tina

Nikon

Shad

Pizza

Tina

Shad/Nikon

Pizza

 

Tina can you explain the positioning of Shad/Nikon on this list?

 

Sooh (in particular) and Dice can you explain/expand your reasons for voting Tina here. Dice, what's missing? Sooh I genuinely can't remember your reason for voting :/

[BFG]

Morning :)

 

I have 15 minutes before I'm out for the day, what's important?

[Askthepizzaguy]

So you're saying the way Lenlo argued was scummy but you don't feel that it's reliable enough to attribute to his alignment?

Yeah.

 

I feel that's scummy to null behavior. It's not especially good villaging behavior.

 

What's more reliable as a tell is what he did afterward.

[BFG]

 

Okay, different question. Again for everyone because this one is important.

 

What are your two strongest reads? Doesn't matter if it's a wolf read or a village read. What are the two most confident reads you have this game that you'd bet the house on if you had to?

 

For me, it's Zander villager and BFG villager, but I think I've stated that already.

 

Never lynch Cory (borderline sabotage comment comes from town cory imo, blows away all the doubt)

 

Never lynch Zander (despite his bad towning toward me)

 

Sabotage?

[BFG]

Shad's posts I'm going to have to revisit when I have more time

[Askthepizzaguy]

Morning :)

 

I have 15 minutes before I'm out for the day, what's important?

 

If I am the lynchee today, I'm shooting Shad, and advising a Tina lynch day two.

 

If you lynch Tina, I will probably attempt to lynch Shad tomorrow if we are both alive.

 

I am a villager and I die a lot anyway soon, but I need you to vote for Tina.

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

 

Okay, different question. Again for everyone because this one is important.

 

What are your two strongest reads? Doesn't matter if it's a wolf read or a village read. What are the two most confident reads you have this game that you'd bet the house on if you had to?

 

For me, it's Zander villager and BFG villager, but I think I've stated that already.

 

Never lynch Cory (borderline sabotage comment comes from town cory imo, blows away all the doubt)

 

Never lynch Zander (despite his bad towning toward me)

 

Sabotage?

 

 

Refers to a post that cory wrote which contained the word "sabotage".

[BFG]

 

 

 

Okay, different question. Again for everyone because this one is important.

 

What are your two strongest reads? Doesn't matter if it's a wolf read or a village read. What are the two most confident reads you have this game that you'd bet the house on if you had to?

 

For me, it's Zander villager and BFG villager, but I think I've stated that already.

 

Never lynch Cory (borderline sabotage comment comes from town cory imo, blows away all the doubt)

 

Never lynch Zander (despite his bad towning toward me)

 

Sabotage?

 

 

Refers to a post that cory wrote which contained the word "sabotage".

 

Thanks

[BFG]

 

Morning :)

 

I have 15 minutes before I'm out for the day, what's important?

 

If I am the lynchee today, I'm shooting Shad, and advising a Tina lynch day two.

 

If you lynch Tina, I will probably attempt to lynch Shad tomorrow if we are both alive.

 

I am a villager and I die a lot anyway soon, but I need you to vote for Tina.

 

Do you have anything on Tina besides the vote thing?

 

Can you talk about Dice yet?

[Nolder]

 

So you're saying the way Lenlo argued was scummy but you don't feel that it's reliable enough to attribute to his alignment?

Yeah.

 

I feel that's scummy to null behavior. It's not especially good villaging behavior.

 

What's more reliable as a tell is what he did afterward.

 

And what he did afterwards you felt was villagery? So you feel good about him now? Or null?

 

I'm sorry to make you rehash all this. 

This is the stuff I skimmed it was just too long and back and forth.

[Sooh]

Tina

 

null-mafia

 

TLDR: Ugh, the worst thing is the vote thing that Pizza brought up, but given her recognition of voting 'patterns' early game I'm wondering if it's more likely to be subconscious from town rather than from mafia. She's done 'work' for herself, not under pressure. But I'm not seeing sustained interest in solving yet. she's not spending time in thread talking to people (but I don't remember this from PF either, so it's not necessarily scummy). Her responses to people seem fine, but generally /meh I don't have the experience to know if she ramps up or not in later phases and know that she's been lynched Day 1 as town before and sussed, if not lynched as mafia day 1. No idea which this is.

 

And as much as I hate to say it, there are people I feel significantly better about than Tina, and that plays into this read

 

 

 

Can't remember a lot from her and sort of feel she's been POE'd into being suspicious rather than anything else. Possibly odd approach to Cory.

 

 

Votes Dice (joke) seems relaxed on thread early. Happy to be playing, but wary of the catch-up involved (I don't think this ever gets mentioned again which is a slight bonus)

 

On reread I like her post on Lenlo, I like that she's looking at his actions and not jumping on the mechanics talk with the rest of us. I also don't hate the early read on Dice, or the way it's given.

 

Responds to Cory directly saying he's wrong and she'll probe it (hopefully)

 

Doesn't like Pizzas comment about her given that he followed her onto Lenlo...

 

Doesn't understand Shad's comment about no NK? And I'm pretty sure she follows this up a couple of times

 

Responds to Lenlo and holds her position

 

I need to look at this with context on reread (which probably won't happen before deadline). She responds to someone asking why 'Lenlo pushing Dice as a suspect without voting' would be scummy with 'because she's seen mafia do that. That's an obvious reply that I love and will make me look sideways at whoever asked it. She doesn't like Pizza's tunnel.

 

From that initial list she seems to have Zander as town, Cory as maybe town, Dice as town, uneasy about Sooh and everyone else is some sort of null, unsure, need to ISO.

 

ISO's Sooh and doesn't like that she's null on so many players, this is consistent with her reasoning for not liking me this game

 

ISO's Besie and doesn't like how she's going with the flow

 

Leaves me in my own category XD

 

Nolder's null

 

There's the unvote off Lenlo, while finding Soon scummy and not having looked further into Lenlo/Pizza which reads oddly. It's a little WIFOMy but given Tina's preoccupation with votes and nudges early game, I think she'd be more self aware if mafia, but I don't think I'd be happy to clear her for this.

 

There are a number of people who seem to be reading Tina based off how she 'normally' reads them, I don't know what to make of this, part of me is doing the same wrt how she's acting towards Cory, but I don't really like the argument.

 

Znder reacts to her post on me and Besie saying there are people he thinks are scummier. I didn't really understand this at the time and I don't now, especially given that he 'likes' Nolder list for lack of consensus

 

Shad feels into the game and not trying to 'make' things scummy, leans town

 

Still hasn't read Lenlo-Pizza

 

Concludes:

 

Town: Tina, Cory, Sander, Dice (from early posts)

Null-town: Shad

Null: Nikon, BFG, Nolder

Null-mafia: Besie

Mafia: Sooh, Lenlo, Pizza

 

Given she still hasn't re-read Pizza/Lenlo I'm not sure how to feel about her putting them in her worst category.

 

"Right now I think Lenlo's posts are more scummy and Pizza's behaviour is more scummy" don't hate this though.

 

Responds to Lenlo expanding on her thoughts on him and Lenlo. Doesn't understand Pizza's reasoning on her, sort of understands his thoughts on Shad.

 

Votes Pizza for bad reasoning on her

 

Asks Sooh if her vote on Tina is OMGUS?

 

She responds to my 'list' sort of neutrally. My reasons for Tina being at the bottom are fairly poor and I'd expect a more argumentative response to it. I can't say it's meta based off one game, but the reasons for lynching her in PF were awful-none existent (with hindsight) and I'm not seeing that same response here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would like as many people as possible to do the following for me:

 

In order from likeliest town -> scum list the follow four players:

 

Tina

Nikon

Shad

Pizza

Tina

Shad/Nikon

Pizza

 

Tina can you explain the positioning of Shad/Nikon on this list?

 

Sooh (in particular) and Dice can you explain/expand your reasons for voting Tina here. Dice, what's missing? Sooh I genuinely can't remember your reason for voting :/

 

I didn't like her play all game. Tbh the only reason she was high up in my first list was that she was sussing me, which is something she generally does as town and not as mafia. Her play from there on has been rather formulaic, nothing really surprising about her posts. She said one day that she would spend a lot of time in the thread (or at least I seem to recall that she did), but no real time interaction occurred from what I remember. 

 

In addition to that there's POE, where too many others seem more towny to me than she does. Also the reads from people I trust to be town plays into my read of her. I'm actually surprised that Cory hasn't pinned her firmly down as town or scum yet. 

 

All of these factor into my vote and subsequent comment that she's trending down for me.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I can link to it for reference if you'd like, but it will take a few mins to find.

 

I am the lynchee today a lot because I am a villager with five votes. I also should not be the day one lynch this game.

[BFG]

 

Then lynch Pizza imo.  Chances of killing scum significantly > 0% and if he flips town you'll probably get your wish tonight.

 

@ All

 

Reverse the order.

 

Both Pizza and Shad still die, but true town heroes revealed.

 

Can you explain?

 

You think Shad as mafia would shoot you (who if town is a mislynch possibility at this point in time?)

[BFG]

 

Tina

 

null-mafia

 

TLDR: Ugh, the worst thing is the vote thing that Pizza brought up, but given her recognition of voting 'patterns' early game I'm wondering if it's more likely to be subconscious from town rather than from mafia. She's done 'work' for herself, not under pressure. But I'm not seeing sustained interest in solving yet. she's not spending time in thread talking to people (but I don't remember this from PF either, so it's not necessarily scummy). Her responses to people seem fine, but generally /meh I don't have the experience to know if she ramps up or not in later phases and know that she's been lynched Day 1 as town before and sussed, if not lynched as mafia day 1. No idea which this is.

 

And as much as I hate to say it, there are people I feel significantly better about than Tina, and that plays into this read

 

 

 

Can't remember a lot from her and sort of feel she's been POE'd into being suspicious rather than anything else. Possibly odd approach to Cory.

 

 

Votes Dice (joke) seems relaxed on thread early. Happy to be playing, but wary of the catch-up involved (I don't think this ever gets mentioned again which is a slight bonus)

 

On reread I like her post on Lenlo, I like that she's looking at his actions and not jumping on the mechanics talk with the rest of us. I also don't hate the early read on Dice, or the way it's given.

 

Responds to Cory directly saying he's wrong and she'll probe it (hopefully)

 

Doesn't like Pizzas comment about her given that he followed her onto Lenlo...

 

Doesn't understand Shad's comment about no NK? And I'm pretty sure she follows this up a couple of times

 

Responds to Lenlo and holds her position

 

I need to look at this with context on reread (which probably won't happen before deadline). She responds to someone asking why 'Lenlo pushing Dice as a suspect without voting' would be scummy with 'because she's seen mafia do that. That's an obvious reply that I love and will make me look sideways at whoever asked it. She doesn't like Pizza's tunnel.

 

From that initial list she seems to have Zander as town, Cory as maybe town, Dice as town, uneasy about Sooh and everyone else is some sort of null, unsure, need to ISO.

 

ISO's Sooh and doesn't like that she's null on so many players, this is consistent with her reasoning for not liking me this game

 

ISO's Besie and doesn't like how she's going with the flow

 

Leaves me in my own category XD

 

Nolder's null

 

There's the unvote off Lenlo, while finding Soon scummy and not having looked further into Lenlo/Pizza which reads oddly. It's a little WIFOMy but given Tina's preoccupation with votes and nudges early game, I think she'd be more self aware if mafia, but I don't think I'd be happy to clear her for this.

 

There are a number of people who seem to be reading Tina based off how she 'normally' reads them, I don't know what to make of this, part of me is doing the same wrt how she's acting towards Cory, but I don't really like the argument.

 

Znder reacts to her post on me and Besie saying there are people he thinks are scummier. I didn't really understand this at the time and I don't now, especially given that he 'likes' Nolder list for lack of consensus

 

Shad feels into the game and not trying to 'make' things scummy, leans town

 

Still hasn't read Lenlo-Pizza

 

Concludes:

 

Town: Tina, Cory, Sander, Dice (from early posts)

Null-town: Shad

Null: Nikon, BFG, Nolder

Null-mafia: Besie

Mafia: Sooh, Lenlo, Pizza

 

Given she still hasn't re-read Pizza/Lenlo I'm not sure how to feel about her putting them in her worst category.

 

"Right now I think Lenlo's posts are more scummy and Pizza's behaviour is more scummy" don't hate this though.

 

Responds to Lenlo expanding on her thoughts on him and Lenlo. Doesn't understand Pizza's reasoning on her, sort of understands his thoughts on Shad.

 

Votes Pizza for bad reasoning on her

 

Asks Sooh if her vote on Tina is OMGUS?

 

She responds to my 'list' sort of neutrally. My reasons for Tina being at the bottom are fairly poor and I'd expect a more argumentative response to it. I can't say it's meta based off one game, but the reasons for lynching her in PF were awful-none existent (with hindsight) and I'm not seeing that same response here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would like as many people as possible to do the following for me:

 

In order from likeliest town -> scum list the follow four players:

 

Tina

Nikon

Shad

Pizza

Tina

Shad/Nikon

Pizza

 

Tina can you explain the positioning of Shad/Nikon on this list?

 

Sooh (in particular) and Dice can you explain/expand your reasons for voting Tina here. Dice, what's missing? Sooh I genuinely can't remember your reason for voting :/

 

I didn't like her play all game. Tbh the only reason she was high up in my first list was that she was sussing me, which is something she generally does as town and not as mafia. Her play from there on has been rather formulaic, nothing really surprising about her posts. She said one day that she would spend a lot of time in the thread (or at least I seem to recall that she did), but no real time interaction occurred from what I remember. 

 

In addition to that there's POE, where too many others seem more towny to me than she does. Also the reads from people I trust to be town plays into my read of her. I'm actually surprised that Cory hasn't pinned her firmly down as town or scum yet. 

 

All of these factor into my vote and subsequent comment that she's trending down for me.

 

You would not believe the faces I'm pulling at this XD

 

Obviously I can't/won't argue the rest

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

 

So you're saying the way Lenlo argued was scummy but you don't feel that it's reliable enough to attribute to his alignment?

Yeah.

 

I feel that's scummy to null behavior. It's not especially good villaging behavior.

 

What's more reliable as a tell is what he did afterward.

 

And what he did afterwards you felt was villagery? So you feel good about him now? Or null?

 

I'm sorry to make you rehash all this. 

This is the stuff I skimmed it was just too long and back and forth.

 

 

Yeah, the specific tell I'm using is more reliable.

 

There was a point where Lenlo's emotions reached their zenith, where he grew either fakely or genuinely frustrated with me to the point of losing decorum. Screw you pizza, etc. I'm a big boy I'm not taking offense to that, and wolves can do that for dramatic effect, I've seen it happen.

 

But if I'm a wolf Lenlo faking frustration with pizza, am voting him, calling him scum, and have argued with him for a long time, and then say screw you and walk away, I stay walked away.

 

If I come back I don't stay there for very long.

 

If I come back it's because I have made a mistake that I need to bury by giving more recent posts which look better than my posts I just made, in that exchange.

 

I don't think that was Lenlo's motive, and I don't see wolf-Lenlo continuing to stick around for as long as he did after that outburst at the end of our exchange.

 

In my eight years of towning I have not seen that happen, in a game this size- I can't even recall if I've seen that in a mash of like 70 players before. It just isn't stored anywhere in my long term memory.

Lenlo CAN be the first, I don't think it's inconceivable. But the odds of that behavior coming from a wolf are minimal.

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

 

Then lynch Pizza imo.  Chances of killing scum significantly > 0% and if he flips town you'll probably get your wish tonight.

 

@ All

 

Reverse the order.

 

Both Pizza and Shad still die, but true town heroes revealed.

 

Can you explain?

 

You think Shad as mafia would shoot you (who if town is a mislynch possibility at this point in time?)

 

 

I have unfortunately become an obvious murder.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I will never be mislynched this game if I survive d1.

[Sooh]

*snip*

You would not believe the faces I'm pulling at this XD

 

Obviously I can't/won't argue the rest

 

lol what faces?

 

It is one of the reasons why he's not surely in my town yet, but there really isn't much else to keep him out, so I'm treating him as town. Will reevaluate later