World's End Mafia - town wins comprehensively

[Zander?]

Zander is sort of my id tore itself from my psyche and was allowed to run rampant in Mafia games.

 

 

How many "explanations of Zander" am I going to make this game? A lot. More than I've made so far. Stay tuned.

 

 

Cory gets me ldo!!!!!

[Zander?]

 

 

 

 

My problem with his catch-up posts this morning is that they are all appeals and they happened simply because pressure caved on him very hard and he was starting to become a real wagon.

 

They'll buy him some time and consideration but usually I'm just left with very bad feelings when players only put in effort like that when they are a lead wagon and are otherwise not being themselves. Yeah, he picked at Lenlo, who is kind of easy to pick at. He didn't do much else.

Am not!

 

 

If you're a wolf I'm probably going to be furious at you for something you did in the first twenty pages that I'm not going to mention.

 

Furious.

 

 

 

FYI- I know what you're talking about sir,

 

I h8 u

 

 

100% sure this never passes a Lie Detector test!!!!!

 

lolololololololol

[Cory Caboose]

I'm gonna lay down. I should be back around most of tomorrow but I'll be sparse in the night. Don't remember if EoD is tomorrow or Wednesday, but if it's tomorrow I'll make an effort to be there ~thirty minutes beforehand for usual proceedings.

 

Tomorrow is important and people need to start expressing their opinions more and with more oomph. If you are a villager you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[Zander?]

no one can actually EXPLAIN zander...

 

Im pretty easy to figure out....like on my gravestone it will say these 6 things:

 

He Loved God

He Loved his Children

He Loved Bacon

He Loved Beer

He Loved To Town

And by God He Lunched a Hell of A lot of Wolves.

[Nikonis]

Made it to page 40 then quick skimmed to 50 but really getting tired after 14.5 hours of work-commute home-Mafia Catchup...

 

I believe I saw an email that there was a deadline and think it's tomorrow so at least want to get something in and for now I'll hope my reads so far are correct [v]PIZZA[/v]

 

Will try to continue and catch up tomorrow but will be at work until 5:00ish PST and think the deadline is somewhere around then.

[Zander?]

I'm gonna lay down. I should be back around most of tomorrow but I'll be sparse in the night. Don't remember if EoD is tomorrow or Wednesday, but if it's tomorrow I'll make an effort to be there ~thirty minutes beforehand for usual proceedings.

 

Tomorrow is important and people need to start expressing their opinions more and with more oomph. If you are a villager you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

 

 

Until tomorrow frand <3 <3

[dicetosser1]

@ zander  I still think he is town but at least cory gave reasons.

[dicetosser1]

night cory

[Lenlo]

Now Zander while he is going to sleep, tell meeeee!

[Zander?]

Made it to page 40 then quick skimmed to 50 but really getting tired after 14.5 hours of work-commute home-Mafia Catchup...

 

I believe I saw an email that there was a deadline and think it's tomorrow so at least want to get something in and for now I'll hope my reads so far are correct [v]PIZZA[/v]

 

Will try to continue and catch up tomorrow but will be at work until 5:00ish PST and think the deadline is somewhere around then.

 

 

we need a reads list brother!!!!

[Zander?]

@ zander  I still think he is town but at least cory gave reasons.

 

Noted.

 

 

Now Zander while he is going to sleep, tell meeeee!

 

Stop bringing it up imo brother.

[Lenlo]

Its killing me on the inside, but fine. Ill wait till the end of the game.

[Cory Caboose]

Nikon.. Got an email...?

 

Huh what now? Am I missing something about the internet?

[Zander?]

Nikon.. Got an email...?

 

Huh what now? Am I missing something about the internet?

 

im pretty sure i know what he means.  Would you rather wait for him to explain?

[Zander?]

 

Nikon.. Got an email...?

 

Huh what now? Am I missing something about the internet?

 

im pretty sure i know what he means.  Would you rather wait for him to explain?

 

 

 

wait was this:

 

[Cory Caboose]

No i'm confused. I've also had a few drinks and am phone posting from bed so it's likely just me and lolcory

[Nikonis]

I auto-follow topics I reply to, replies get forwarded to my email and pop up on the computer screen if I'm on my desktop/laptop.  Don't read them in full but will usually catch a glimpse when skimming through or if it pops up while I'm reading to catch up.  Also how I saw your question (while deleting the MANY emails which filled my inbox just from this game alone).  And now off to sleep, hope to catch up tomorrow cause I know there will be a ton more to read by the time I get home.

[Zander?]

No i'm confused. I've also had a few drinks and am phone posting from bed so it's likely just me and lolcory

 

 

When you set notifications for threads on DM theres an option that DM will send you an email to alert you if someone posted in one of the threads you're following.  I think that's what it is imo.

[Cory Caboose]

You're gonna need a bigger inbox

[Zander?]

I auto-follow topics I reply to, replies get forwarded to my email and pop up on the computer screen if I'm on my desktop/laptop.  Don't read them in full but will usually catch a glimpse when skimming through or if it pops up while I'm reading to catch up.  Also how I saw your question (while deleting the MANY emails which filled my inbox just from this game alone).  And now off to sleep, hope to catch up tomorrow cause I know there will be a ton more to read by the time I get home.

 

 

You should check the ones from me.  Ive been trying to get your attention as Ive asked you for a few things.

[Pralaya]

Vote Count:

 

Pizza (5): Lenlo, Tina, Shad, Cory, Nikon

Shad (2): Pizza, Zander

Tina (2): Sooh, Dice

Lenlo (1): Nolder

 

Not Voting: bfg, besie

 

With 12 players, 7 needed to lynch

 

[Shad_]

Ollie fell asleep.

[Shad_]

I didn't.

[Shad_]

I'm sorry if I haven't been as involved in this game as you've all grown to expect of me. I can't do it all the time. But I want to do it all the time, and I create opportunities when I can.

 

When your top suspect is the most long-winded player in the game of mafia, presenting a case isn't particularly easy.

 

But I ISO'd Pizza up to his unvote. It was as far as I could get. I am still voting him and have no intention of moving unless some miracle transpired after I left off and I can spare another large block of undistracted time to digest it.

 

Have fun:

[Shad_]

Pizza part 1

 

 

 

~~Starts with a lot of jokes, treats Cory and Zander as obvious town out the gate and isn't shy about letting us know that.

 

#226 -- asks Sooh what bothers her about Lenlo

 

#229 -- asks Lenlo if he was serious about calling Dice obvious scum for posting before the mod at the start of the game.

 

#233 -- votes Lenlo for asking Dice "Are you saying you know she isnt town, that if we somehow mechanically find her to be scum we shouldnt lynch her or what?" ~~certainly a reasonable cause for alarm

 

#235

 

Recommended:

 

Everyone should name a minimum of 2 suspects a day. If one dies, their second suspect counts as a vote for the other at night.

 

preference is always for the top 1 suspect, ofc.

#237 -- calls Zander and Cory town again

 

#240 -- agrees with Besie that Lenlo's suggestion isn't the best course of action. ~~at this point I gather he's interpriting Lenlo to be saying 'let's intentionally lynch a town', which is how it came across to me at first too, so he's not contradicting #235 here and he's certainly not wrong

 

#242 -- calls out Lenlo's post count competition, doesn't think a villa would be concerned about post counts at this stage. Says other posts are fishing for villa points too, doesn't specify.

 

#244 --

 

 

 

 

 

len i dont think the double vc thing will work til at least n3

 

untill then we are still guessing who the mafia bar slips or a big piece of luck

Why not? Assuming we get flip information, then we know who we lynched is town and who is scum. Then we read their debates/voting process. If we lynch a town D1 then they should follow the will of the town majority and with their 1 vote NK whoever we vote for.

 

Yeah sure we are guessing, but we are making just as educated guesses as we do lynches ITT while at the same time denying mafia control of the NK. I dont see how any of that is bad for town.

 

This can happen by accident a lot of the time, why is it a priority for you to make it happen?

 

There's no conscious effort required to make a townie die, it's going to happen by default if we don't lynch a scumbag, which is how we win the game. So either we lynch a scumbag on day one which is fantastic and the point of play and what we're trying to achieve, or we fail at that task and then said townie tries to shoot a scum.

 

Here's the bottom line: I am accusing you of suggesting this, because you want it to work to your advantage either way.

 

You want to lynch a townie, and if you do, you want them to kill another townie, by going with the majority of townies who are lost, plus scum's votes which will assist them in being lost, or you are trying to gain townie credits starting day two for pointing at scumbags day one with your second choice "vote".

 

Either way, your aim is to look townie, by suggesting things that will work out just fine for you as scum.

 

Yuck. 100% yuck.

 

 

 

~~This is the post that first threw me for a loop originally, maybe more because of Lenlo than Pizza. I gather Lenlo is saying the second vote count is in case we lynch town, not because we should lynch town, but he's not entirely clear on that and Pizza is still arguing against the intentionally lynch a town line. I hadn't read it that way the first time through. So ok so far.

 

#249 --

 

 

 

 

I dont understand why you are fighting this.

 

We lynch Town D1 - We control the mafia NK hopefully, kill the scummiest person by thread consensus.

 

We lynch Scum D1 - Scum get to control the N1 NK, game continues as normal.

 

Yeah your right, D1/N1 scum lynchs/vigs are uncommon. But it doesnt matter if we arnt using a vig shot. We are using the mafias own NK. Seriously we pick a name out of a freaking hat, 25% change to get mafia on the lynch, 27% chance on the NK.

 

IN WHAT WORLD DOES KEEPING TWO VCS TODAY HURT TOWN?

Bolded- Manipulation of perception, and a heads-up to the scum when distancing from fellow wolves would be appropriate.

A person is hard to fool, but people are easy to fool. People absorb the consensus when they are at a loss for a good idea on their own, and it's easier for wolves to hide within consensus. And wolves have a leg up on individual townies when it comes to manipulating perceptions or consensus because they're not operating solo, but as a tightly-knit unit.

 

You're taking an absolute position here on a grey bit of morality. In principle, it's better for town to hunt with more information, but mafia have ways of manipulating that information, and the opinions of others.

 

Now that you've made a stand on this hill with the all-caps, you're attempting to sound townier than others, as if there's no room for nuanced disagreement. That's a scummy motivation and it should hang you.

 

 

 

~~But this line of reasoning is hard for me to accept as genuine, and it seems to pretty boldy contradict #235.

 

#251 -- doesn't like Lenlo assuming that scum don't have a night kill

 

#263 -- says that if he and Lenlo were w/w he would bus him

 

#561 -- says he recognizes that his early clear of Zander and Cory looks like TMI, but he's really just a boss. ~~The question came from Zander. Either allignment I'm not really sure what the benefit is to declining to explain.

 

#571 -- says he intentionally changes his town game every game, says that for this game he's throwing out meta and using in-game content only

 

#594 -- Zander had questioned #561, Pizza says to give him until D2 and encourages him to look for townies rather than spreading suspicion in too many places

 

#603 -- rates the first 242 posts of the game scummy/null/town on a point system, preemptively states that he would do this as scum, concludes with Dice Cory and Zander as strongest town, Lenlo Sooh as strongest scum, town leans on BFG and Blom, scum lean on Tina.

 

#606 -- Cory asks Pizza why he should trust him, Pizza says he will when he's less busy.

 

#681 -- says his best ability as scum is to fake being genuine, to the point where most people just assume he's never genuine because they don't want to be fooled

 

#682 -- challenges Lenlo's claim that concern over Pizza's lower word per post count was just a joke

 

#684 -- jokes about his "TMI" reads

 

#703 --

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

len i dont think the double vc thing will work til at least n3

 

untill then we are still guessing who the mafia bar slips or a big piece of luck

Why not? Assuming we get flip information, then we know who we lynched is town and who is scum. Then we read their debates/voting process. If we lynch a town D1 then they should follow the will of the town majority and with their 1 vote NK whoever we vote for.

 

Yeah sure we are guessing, but we are making just as educated guesses as we do lynches ITT while at the same time denying mafia control of the NK. I dont see how any of that is bad for town.

 

This can happen by accident a lot of the time, why is it a priority for you to make it happen?

 

There's no conscious effort required to make a townie die, it's going to happen by default if we don't lynch a scumbag, which is how we win the game. So either we lynch a scumbag on day one which is fantastic and the point of play and what we're trying to achieve, or we fail at that task and then said townie tries to shoot a scum.

 

Here's the bottom line: I am accusing you of suggesting this, because you want it to work to your advantage either way.

 

You want to lynch a townie, and if you do, you want them to kill another townie, by going with the majority of townies who are lost, plus scum's votes which will assist them in being lost, or you are trying to gain townie credits starting day two for pointing at scumbags day one with your second choice "vote".

 

Either way, your aim is to look townie, by suggesting things that will work out just fine for you as scum.

 

Yuck. 100% yuck.

 

Red I'm not sure I follow here. I mean of course if he's scum he wants to kill town players, but how would essentially obligating a town vig to shoot a majority consensus target rather than firing rogue benefit scum?

 

In some games there is a possibility of a "deep wolf", a wolf so townie they'll slide right on by.

 

With a lynch and a possible vig, one the wolves would rather see "by consensus" so they can have a say in what happens, the wolf team gets a heads up when it would be a bad idea to defend the deep wolf from suspicion, and when it would be a bad idea for the deep wolf to bus another wolf for credit, only to die anyway.

 

It's also possible they could bus drive, redirect, or have a scum doctor.

 

Those last ones are more long shot, but information is power. It's useful to townies, but predictability and manipulate-ability is how I helped carry a scum team to a draw by breaking the game once.

 

All I needed was a role which could stop a lynch. Then I completely wrecked the town's night-kill powers, and used the day lynch stopper to predict who the town would go for in advance, and had my team basically outed, and all not dying because towns are easy to manipulate into doing exactly what you'd predict.

 

It's not even fair. The mod stopped the game because the town couldn't lynch my team. It was rendered broken.

 

All because if you let the scum team know what you're going to do, that allows for the possibility of it being countered.

 

By force, or by guile.

 

Still, I agree with the general idea of naming two suspects minimum. It puts the decision to the wolves whether to bus or to circle the wagons, and that stressor can be an issue for them.

 

 

 

~~There may have been a bit of a disconnect here if he thought Lenlo was saying lynch the towniest player and I thought Lenlo was saying in case we lynch town, but I still don't really get this post. The possibility of scum PRs blocking the lynch if they know who it's going to be before phase shift, ok. But I don't see where the mention of a deep wolf makes a bit of sense here, as the wolf isn't deep if a majority is voting them, and I don't get where scum have a greater advantage by knowing consensus via vote than by knowing consensus via everyone naming two suspects. I suppose the latter is more work for scum in a trivial sort of way.

 

#706 --

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dont understand why you are fighting this.

 

We lynch Town D1 - We control the mafia NK hopefully, kill the scummiest person by thread consensus.

 

We lynch Scum D1 - Scum get to control the N1 NK, game continues as normal.

 

Yeah your right, D1/N1 scum lynchs/vigs are uncommon. But it doesnt matter if we arnt using a vig shot. We are using the mafias own NK. Seriously we pick a name out of a freaking hat, 25% change to get mafia on the lynch, 27% chance on the NK.

 

IN WHAT WORLD DOES KEEPING TWO VCS TODAY HURT TOWN?

Bolded- Manipulation of perception, and a heads-up to the scum when distancing from fellow wolves would be appropriate.

A person is hard to fool, but people are easy to fool. People absorb the consensus when they are at a loss for a good idea on their own, and it's easier for wolves to hide within consensus. And wolves have a leg up on individual townies when it comes to manipulating perceptions or consensus because they're not operating solo, but as a tightly-knit unit.

 

You're taking an absolute position here on a grey bit of morality. In principle, it's better for town to hunt with more information, but mafia have ways of manipulating that information, and the opinions of others.

 

Now that you've made a stand on this hill with the all-caps, you're attempting to sound townier than others, as if there's no room for nuanced disagreement. That's a scummy motivation and it should hang you.

 

Ok, I guess I could have kept reading. I don't think it's a bad idea so much as significantly less beneficial than it appears on the surface--half of town will give a non-committal second choice because we tend to process information one flip at a time, and unless scum are dumb enough to start railing them for it it's not going to amount to much.

 

But I think you're reasoning here is kind of weird. I mean, everyone already does this to an extent through reads lists. We all routinely express where we stand on everyone else in the game and why so that scum can't opportunistically dive on the easiest mislynch of the moment. (Last time Kivam scummed here he lolololol suggested no one post their town reads. One player was basically forced to reveal as IC after he flipped for rolling with it.) Any wolf is going to have a general feel for where town is headed and can fake reads that more or less align with consensus. I don't see where what you're arguing is special in relation to Lenlo's "second VC" idea.

 

It's all in my posts so far, I can rephrase it but I feel I was quite thorough.

 

What's the point of the bolded in the nested quote by Lenlo?

 

It's in all caps. This bit of melodrama is intended to persuade people that Dice is scummy for it, without doing all the work himself and voting for Dice and making a real case.

 

The smudge is a potent weapon. A smudge is when you paint someone as being wolfy without actually saying it or voting that way, put still putting the work out there so someone else can pick up the banner and lynch him.

 

Lenlo did a lot of work smudging Dice, and it forms a large portion of the basis of my suspicions on him.

 

He threw "the sink" at Dice by asking a ton of leading questions and things that if a townie were saying it, he'd have no problem emphasizing with a vote. Not just that one post, I listed several.

 

It was a concerted campaign by Lenlo to smudge Dice as being suspect.

 

Even if it doesn't get Dice lynched it "looks" like hunting, but it's not real hunting.

 

It only generically appears to be hunting behavior, but it isn't hunting behavior.

 

Hunting behavior is when I say Lenlo is a scumbag, and he should die, here's a dozen posts he did which are scummy as hell and why, here's my vote on him, and he should die day one, and I'm 95 percent sure he's guilty at this point.

 

Now I'm prepared to be talked down, because I know my limitations. But I would caution people to not confuse something that appears to be something on the surface with genuine behavior which should always produce a slightly different result.

 

 

 

~~I hate the origin of this post. I think I'm asking a pretty reasonable question. Pizza ignores it and goes off on a completely different angle at Lenlo, so why quote me as if the wall of text contains any sort of answer?

 

His argument that "IN WHAT WORLD DOES KEEPING TWO VCS TODAY HURT TOWN?" is an attempt to smudge Dice is pretty weird too. He's simultaneously saying that Lenlo is trying to trick us into thinking Dice is scummy without being liable for the subsequent town flip, and that Lenlo wants us to believe he's scum hunting and caught Dice. But it really can't be both.

 

#712 -- Lenlo told Pizza to stop ignoring him, Pizza says he isn't doing that and calls Lenlo a wolf.

 

#717 --

 

 

 

A wolf who earns the "second VC" bullet isn't terribly deep though.

I didn't say they would be, but deeper than their partner the probable day lynchee.

 

And I don't see where it's any less obvious who so-and-so would shoot as a vig based on their reads lists than base on their mechanically meaningless "second VC" vote.

Not everyone does lists. The attempt would be in extracting more information than some are willing to give.

 

I'm already going to give you multiple "top" suspects so long as multiple wolves remain, or attempt to do so, some others are content to vote and chase one person and that's all.

 

And that's fair and valid and I'm not critiquing it, that's not the point. The point is, suggesting the idea, and then browbeating someone who disagrees with aspects of it, or all-caps raeg about how could it ever not be a townie idea, is how Lenlo is hiding the fact that he's implicitly calling Dice scummy, and himself the noble defender of the town with his good pro-town ideas.

 

That's when it becomes scummy, and yes, the plan could be used to help wolves if they anticipate it.

 

You disagree? Fine. You don't understand how? I can attempt again to explain.

 

The POINT: Lenlo is scum and must die/

 

 

 

~~First answer is pretty weak. Second answer contradicts

 

 

Recommended:

 

Everyone should name a minimum of 2 suspects a day. If one dies, their second suspect counts as a vote for the other at night.

 

preference is always for the top 1 suspect, ofc.

 

again, then kind of blows me off and redirects back onto the smudge argument... again.