For the 20kth time, Was Destroying The Choden Kal a Sound Decision?

[Zorlon - Member]

Yes, Rand had changed his mind about destroying the world, and yes that artifact would play no role in his Final Confrontation, so yes Rand had no personal need for it.

 

However, there were a bajillion other people in the world all fighting and dying.

 

We see Rand try to help the Wordly struggle in ToM where he almost over-exerts himself frying a Trolloc Horde. We also see him try to help the Worldly struggle in AMoL where he gets chased away by Darkside channelers because their strength overwhelms him.

 

In Both cases, he could have won without breaking a sweat if he'd still had the Choden-Kal. In the former case, had he died everyone would have been in deep doodoo. In the latter case, many warriors of The Light died because Rand lost a battle he could have won with the CK.

 

And too the rest of the Last Battle. Could have been an easy and relatively bloodless win with the CK, and then Rand could have gone to SG at a time of his choosing after all the Shadow armies had been scoured from the world. Instead the Light came close to losing that part of the battle. ONly won through a combination of Egwene going Anime Girl on Taim(I will never believe he did not have the final battle from season 1 of Sailor Moon in mind as he wrote that scene) and Demandred being stupid enough to get himself killed in a duel.

 

So, considering the price of destroying the CK, and seeing as Rand was well past being tempted to destroy the world(just look at that web of Light in his brain), is there any in-universe reason to justify destroying it when he did, or was it just a clunky Out of Game attempt to avoid making the win too easy for the Good Guys?

[Sabio - Member]

Well we saw it wouldn't of been of much use to Rand in sealing the DO prison, so then what do you do with it?  With the sword, even if  he could use the sword and the statue at the same time, that much power could of destroyed the whole place.  When it was  destroyed Rand hadn't overcome his madness yet so he wasn't exactly trusting of anyone else.  Who could he give it to that was a man that he could completely trust with that much power?  Even if they had good  intentions they could easily accidently destroy the world or screw things up pretty bad by accident.  Logain was missing, he knew something bad was happening in the BT, so who would he of given it to and trust with using it?  Also the seal were stolen and Rand thought those were safe, so good chance had he hid the statue again that would of gotten stolen.    Since we don't know when or how the seals were stolen it, the shadow quite possibly discovered the seals location when Rand touched the TP or opened himself up to Lanfear showing her everything.  So had he not destroyed it, it's possible the statue could of been stolen also.

[Zorlon - Member]

Well we saw it wouldn't of been of much use to Rand in sealing the DO prison, so then what do you do with it?  With the sword, even if  he could use the sword and the statue at the same time, that much power could of destroyed the whole place.  When it was  destroyed Rand hadn't overcome his madness yet so he wasn't exactly trusting of anyone else.  Who could he give it to that was a man that he could completely trust with that much power?  Even if they had good  intentions they could easily accidently destroy the world or screw things up pretty bad by accident.  Logain was missing, he knew something bad was happening in the BT, so who would he of given it to and trust with using it?  Also the seal were stolen and Rand thought those were safe, so good chance had he hid the statue again that would of gotten stolen.    Since we don't know when or how the seals were stolen it, the shadow quite possibly discovered the seals location when Rand touched the TP or opened himself up to Lanfear showing her everything.  So had he not destroyed it, it's possible the statue could of been stolen also.

As I said before, there were millions of people fighting and dying. Rand helped some of them in ToM and almost over-exerted himself to terrible consequence.

 

He tried again in AMoL to take a hand in the physical side of The Last Battle and got chased away by the overwhelming force of the Shadow channelers. NEarly killed, which againw ould have been to terrible consequence for the good guys.

 

With the Choden Kal Rand could have scoured the Shadow armies from the world easily and then gone to the Blight.

 

Instead, he destroyed it, and the light nearly lost the physical battles until Egwene went all Anime Magical Girl on Taim(and I will never be convinced Sanderson didn't have Sailor Moon's final battle with Beryl in mind while wrriting that scene) and Demandred was retarded enough to get in 3 duels.

[jack of shadows - Member]

@zorlon,

as i've already stated in a different thread,destroying the choedan kal was a necessary plot device to weaken

the light side.i also mentioned a different outcome to rand's shienaran debacle using the choedan kal instead

of the fat little man angreal,unfortunately,it was only a wishful thinking on my part,rand's failure at shienar had

nothing to do with poor strategy,to explain that we need to return to rand's scenes in the towers of midnight,

they are few(only six) but extremely powerful and did create an aura of godhood around him,so team jordan

decided to dispel the notion that rand returned from dragonmount a deity.

brandon sanderson constantly eroded rand's aura especially in the first half of a memory of light,e.g. with moridin

"don't think i will believe your simple tricks,lews therin." with moiraine,"very nice.does that work on the others?"

with mat,"nice trick,very nice trick." with elayne,"some other tricks helped on occasion,but he didn't mention them".

and of couse the shienaran failure,brandon sanderson wrote the entire scene to show us that rand is not

omniscient and certainly not omnipotent,and he didn't stop there,he had to make sure that we understood that

rand is just a powerful individual who could still make mistakes and could be defeated(or at least temporarily stopped)

so he wrote this:"that night,following his failure with lan's army,rand fled to his dreams"...meh.

you're entitled to analyze rand's decisions from dragonmount until the end of the last battle like a five stars general

and point out all his mistakes,but please take into account that the creator had a different agenda.

Edited December 26, 2015 by jack of shadows

[Zorlon - Member]

@zorlon,

as i've already stated in a different thread,destroying the choedan kal was a necessary plot device to weaken

the light side.i also mentioned a different outcome to rand's shienaran debacle using the choedan kal instead

of the fat little man angreal,unfortunately,it was only a wishful thinking on my part,rand's failure at shienar had

nothing to do with poor stratedy,to explain that we need to return to rand's scenes in the towers of midnight,

they are few(only six) but extremely powerful and did create an aura of godhood around him,so team jordan

decided to dispel the notion that rand returned from dragonmount a deity.

brandon sanderson constantly eroded rand's aura especially in the first half of a memory of light,e.g. with moridin

"don't think i will believe your simple tricks,lews therin." with moiraine,"very nice.does that work on the others?"

with mat,"nice trick,very nice trick." with elayne,"some other tricks helped on occasion,but he didn't mention them".

and of couse the shienaran failure,brandon sanderson wrote the entire scene to show us that rand is not

omniscient and certainly not omnipotent,and he didn't stop there,he had to make sure that we understood that

rand is just a powerful individual who could still make mistakes and could be defeated(or at least temporarily stopped)

so he wrote this:"that night,following his failure with lan's army,rand fled to his dreams"...meh.

you're entitled to analyze rand's decisions from dragonmount until the end of the last battle like a five stars general

and point all his mistakes,but please take into account that the creator had a different agenda.

Yes, that is obviously the case from a writing perspective, but from an in-story perspective we are still left with Rand making a rash decision which had severe consequences so far as the death toll of the Last Battle.

[Jak 0' the Shadows - Member]

Even if it wasn't, Rand is human, he isn't perfect, to write him so would be false. 

[mb - Member]

the Dragonmount Viewing (Gathering Storm chapter 37) seems to predict Choedan Kal's destruction; the chapter 15 Viewings (same book) seem to also predict it.

[DemandredFO - Member]

the CK had to be destroyed because there wouldn't be a story if you could nuke everything and besides Callandor was the True Power sa'angreal not the CK

[Jak 0' the Shadows - Member]

the CK had to be destroyed because there wouldn't be a story if you could nuke everything and besides Callandor was the True Power sa'angreal not the CK

 

No... It had NOTHING to do with 'there wouldn't be a story if'. More like: Rand saw what that power had done to others and himself, and he was afraid of it. 'wouldn't you be afraid to hold enough power to destroy the world? I would destroy that thing the moment I got my hands on it. I'm sure he was terrified. He had just drawn up enough power to destroy the world and had been close to doing it. After that, I would never want to see the thing again. Not only would the power terrify me, but I would be reminded of what I had almost done every time I looked at it.

[wotfan4472 - Member]

Also the threat that the DO could have located the CK and ordered Moghedien to sneak in, take the statue and give it to Demandred just before he hit the White Tower armies at Kandor was incredibly risky . The risk of it falling into the Shadow's hands was too great from the in book view, once the taint was cleansed. That was the purpose that the Pattern had for it. Brute strength did not win the day. It was admitting that the DO could not break them all was the victory. Who cares that millions died when the Wheel's continued existence means it does not matter that they died at all?? Rand is proof that in this world, death is not permanent. It just means that all those millions will be born again to live new lives as a reward of the Light, or be eternally punished as a reward of the Shadow depending on which side all those millions chose when the conflict came to its peak.  

[mb - Member]

the easiest time (in the series) for the Shadow to get the Choedan Kal seems to be when they had the male adam.  all other times (in the series) I imagine would require confronting Rand and/or his followers.

[jack of shadows - Member]

@jak o' the shadows,

"rand is human,he isn't perfect...."

true,but beside the point,rand failed to help lan's army at shienar because he underestimated

the force of his enemies,a possible scenario,but rand was powerful enough to stave a full circle

off and return to the field of merrilor,my problem is with what comes next,according to aviendha

rand commanded three dozens aes sedai,two dozens asha'man and probably the same number

of wise ones and windfinders,a grand total of 120,what stopped rand from returning to shienar with

callandor in a circle with nynaeve and moiraine,10 more circles to watch their backs and blast

every shadowspawn?i'll tell you who stopped him,brandon sanderson did!

back to you zorlon,you can't separate the writing perspective from the in-story perspective,they are

one and the same,someone like rand simply doesn't "flee" to his dreams after a minor setback,he 

returns better prepared and counter attack,if brandon sanderson could write something so at odds

with everything we already know about rand's character just to prove his point,don't expect rand 

to make sound military decisions.

as for being afraid to use the choedan kal,well,rand was champion of light fighting a total war against

the shadow,in a situation like that you use every weapon in your arsenal to achieve victory.

[Sabio - Member]

Rand's job wasn't suppose to be a full confrontatiion with enemy channelers.  He risked injury or tiring himself out before his fight with the DO.  Hence the hit and run not trying to get into big engagements.  As he said  his  main purpose wasn't fighting armies or enemy channelers, his allies were going to have to deal with that.  Rand's fight was with the DO, not stopping armies.  He finally agreed with Moriaine his going  to each battle was dangerous.  Had he shown up with so much power what would stop all the forsaken showing up with thier own full circles etc...  And if using  every weapon at his disposal ends up ruining the world?

[mb - Member]

All content in the last 3 books I take come from 2 sources::  the notes, Harriet.

So it would actually be either or both of those instead of Sanderson.

 

not sure about writing perspective and in-story perspective being "one and the same".  characters may have different opinions/convictions/etc than the people working on the story (author/authors, editor/editors, publisher/publishers, etc).

 

from an in-story perspective, characters might not have cooperated with Rand; even if they followed him.

as far as I recall, the Windfinders arrived after Rand entered the Pit.

[dhammett11 - Member]

 

the CK had to be destroyed because there wouldn't be a story if you could nuke everything and besides Callandor was the True Power sa'angreal not the CK

 

 

No... It had NOTHING to do with 'there wouldn't be a story if'. More like: Rand saw what that power had done to others and himself, and he was afraid of it. 'wouldn't you be afraid to hold enough power to destroy the world? I would destroy that thing the moment I got my hands on it. I'm sure he was terrified. He had just drawn up enough power to destroy the world and had been close to doing it. After that, I would never want to see the thing again. Not only would the power terrify me, but I would be reminded of what I had almost done every time I looked at it.

In addition to fearing its power, Rand had to deduced by this point that the Dark One or Moridin had conspired to put the CK in his hands. Consider that Semirhage successfully collared Rand with the male adam and was essentially home free to parade him off to Shayol Gheul. Nynaeave would later describe the direness of the situation as "being heartbeats from the end". Yet the Dark One's intervention by granting Rand access to the True Power reveals to us that Semirhage and the male adam were simply ruse masking an even better plan of the Dark One to win the last battle. The Dark One was supremely confident that Rand wielding CK would be the Light's undoing. If Rand had even an inkling of any of this, we might infer that his decision to destroy the CK was less about fearing its power and more about demonstrating that it has no power over him.

[Jak 0' the Shadows - Member]

Perhaps you are correct. My point was that dismissing it as 'it was too powerful and they needed to get rid of it to create plausible tension' is completely bogus. 

Edited December 29, 2015 by Jak 0' the Shadows

[Pinzarn - Member]

Ok, putting myself in Rand's place...

 

I have an item that is all powerful  So much power that it has been said that I could rival the Creator with it.  At this point, my paranoia starts to kick in.

 

First, I have come to accept that my role in the Final Battle will not be wielding saidan to fry a bunch of Trollocs.  At the very least, my role shouldn't be that.

 

Second, I have an all powerful item that I won't be using.  The only people I trust can't use it.  I count the people I can trust as Elayne, Nynavae, Min, Avienda, Mat, Moriaine, Lan, and Perrin.

 

Third, for the people that can use it, I don't trust them with something that powerful.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely.  In trying to do "all powerful good", what could possibly go wrong?

 

Fourthly (is that a word?), I am supposed to die in the Last Battle.  So I can't use it afterwards.

 

Given all of the aforementioned items, destroying it is the best course of action.  I can agree that perhaps the timing of the destruction could have been delayed a bit to use it to some degree in the beginning of the Final Battle, but it would have been less of a dramatic moment for the author.

[jack of shadows - Member]

it would have been less dramatic and 400 pages shorter for the author.

[Pinzarn - Member]

It would have only made Veins of Gold less dramatic in my opinion.  I don't recall VoG being 400 pages long.

[jack of shadows - Member]

i was referring to a memory of light.

[Jak 0' the Shadows - Member]

it would have been less dramatic and 400 pages shorter for the author.

 

Bogus. Not the reason.

[Sabio - Member]

I think Pinzarn hit the nail on the head.  Rand had no one he  could trust with it, and quite posbily could do serious harm to the pattern and world.  After all he knows what it's capable of  doing  as he  balefired a whole fortress.  He was about to start blasting whole Seanchean camps with it.  He couldn't trust himself with it and knew it shouldn't ever be used again.  It was simply too powerful, too dangerous and was going to be no use to him in the last battle.  Had he used it on the DO's armies he risked tiring himself out and  having to delay the fight with the DO even longer.

[mb - Member]

From going through the scene, Rand's plan was to use balefire twice (Ebou Dar palace, Ebou Dar harbor) then use other weaves for the rest of the Seanchan.

[threadnecromancer - Member]

Indeed, I don't understand why people think it would have unravelled the Pattern.

 

Far more balefire was employed in the War of Power, and frankly I think more balefire was used afterwards than what Rand had planned to use.

[mbuehner - Member]

The attack on Ebou Dar wasnt his revelation, it was the crisis on Dragonmount where he considered destroying the world.

 

(and a lot of people think Perrin was there as a failsafe to take Rand out if he chose poorly)