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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
extinguish

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SPOILERS

 

 

 

I’ve just finished!! I started this series when I was an adolescent 10 years ago but stopped reading at book 10 or 11. I recently got back into reading in a big way so I smashed the series out in two months :D

 

 

Here are my thoughts on the series, I’m sure they’ve all been heard before but I just need to get them out there.

 

Brandon did a great job. It was always going to be tough pulling a whole universe like WoT together, you see it in projects like this all the time, they are so ambitious and then they don’t know how to finish it. The writing improved with Brandon too, although overall the characters maybe lost a bit of depth. Robert Jordan’s writing was so irritating at times. I literally didn’t read whole paragraphs of useless description he put in there, mundane things such what the wall hangings look like. Brandon’s style of switching between characters quickly was much more effective then Robert’s chapter after chapter of boring characters as well, kept the pace of the book up, although maybe this was only possible because it was the climax of the series. 

 

 

Characters:

 

Egwene: YES! I whooped and ran around the house when she died. What an arrogant and insufferable person.

 

Elayne: Her politics chapters were sooo boring. Overall she scrapes through as a pass, but she was often as infuriating as Egwene.

 

Aviendha: Great character, except for the fact that she likes the so often annoying Elayne so much for absolutely no reason at all.

 

Mat: He was so great, he was a bit of a superhero really. I don’t know why he didn’t take on Dem himself with the foxhead, it’s not like he can lose in a 1 on 1 combat. There also wasn’t enough POV Mat loving from other characters in this series.

 

Perrin: At times he was so boring and other times he was great, I guess he’s just your average bloke. An average bloke who also happens to be Ta'veren.

 

Rand: Overall he was great and exciting, I thought dark Rand was bad ass as hell, he should have used the true power a bit more. Zen rand was even more bad ass though. I was hoping Rand with his zen as hell new powers was going to set Egwene straight at the battle meeting at Merrilor but somehow she can match the dragon reborn. What a load of rubbish. His ending was good I thought, but its not clear 

 

Nyn, Tuon (!), Min, Cads, Brigette were all legends.

 

 

 

Scenes/Thoughts:

 

Where was the Mat and Abell reunion!!!! Or with his sister at least? Rand got with his dad, Perrin’s family got slaughtered but he got to chat with his old mentor. I was waiting and waiting for it and it never came! It would have been very funny and satisfying.

 

I think a short scene with Loial at the great stump would have been great.

 

What happened with Perrin and the dark prophecies? Was also hoping for a Perrin Berelain affair, would have spiced things up a bit. Overall Faile was ok, bit of a nutjob though.

 

I was guessing and guessing who Mesaana was and in the end she turns out to be a brown librarian you’ve never really heard of?

 

I love the passages with grey men how they are slipped quietly into the descriptions.

 

The early/mid Aiel scenes were great, especially the banter with Rand - Maidens. 

 

In the early/mid part of the series I was waiting for Rand to clean out Machin Shin, but I guess once you discover traveling there’s no real need.

 

Nyn and Moraine didn’t really do much in the last book, Alivia too, bit of a waste of their power although they were of course essential. But Moraine's return was a bit anti climactic, what did she do, took control at the battle meeting and thats it?! 

 

Egwene's 'Flame of Tar Valon' counter to Balefire. Ergh cringeworthy.

 

Also who does Rand talk to when he leaves the pit of doom, the same person Avi talked too and who does the body swap? Also I don't really understand what he means 'whens he's mumbling I asked the wrong question blah blah'

 

The Two Rivers doesn’t even make it to being its own country!!!!! Let alone Manetheren. Literlally every character except for Elayne would have gotten behind Manetheren. Very dissapointing.

 

No one was really that creative with the One power, especially in battle, they just throw fire and lightning at each other. I guess it's not really clear how much strength different things use.

 

Overall, the good guys won too much. it all seemed a bit too easy maybe, the forsaken were useless and no-one dies until the last battle!!!!! Except for moraine and you always knew she wasn’t actually dead. I’m not talking like game of thrones where literally everyone dies, but he could of knocked a few off here and there along the way. like Egwene for example.

 

 

 

I don’t really know what to do with myself now it’s all over. It really is a very special story with so many incredible powerful moments and climaxes, I have no doubt I’ll re-read it in the future. Farewell Wheel Of Time!

Edited by extinguish

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Great thoughts! Im only up to the 4th book but its already shaping up to be awsome. Its been great to see how the characters develop and i love the rich lore of the world.

Thanks for sharing!

(PS, in the future fucking learn to use the fucking SPOILER function! Some people, such as myself, might not want to know which character dies!)

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Brandon did a great job. It was always going to be tough pulling a whole universe like WoT together, you see it in projects like this all the time, they are so ambitious and then they don’t know how to finish it. The writing improved with Brandon too,

No, it really, really didn't. RJ's writing was not without its flaws, but Brandon avoided none of those flaws, and added his own.

 

 

Mat: He was so great, he was a bit of a superhero really. I don’t know why he didn’t take on Dem himself with the foxhead, it’s not like he can lose in a 1 on 1 combat.

Demandred wouldn't necessarily play fair. And Mat had a more important job.

 

Rand: Overall he was great and exciting, I thought dark Rand was bad ass as hell, he should have used the true power a bit more. Zen rand was even more bad ass though. I was hoping Rand with his zen as hell new powers was going to set Egwene straight at the battle meeting at Merrilor but somehow she can match the dragon reborn. What a load of rubbish. His ending was good I thought, but its not clear

Why should Rand have used the TP more? Given it's addictive, and dangerous, surely using it as little as possible just makes sense?

 

I was guessing and guessing who Mesaana was and in the end she turns out to be a brown librarian you’ve never really heard of?

The Brown librarian you've never really heard of was the leading candidate - it's like Who Killed Asmo, we were mostly just at the stage of waiting for a confirmation as we'd worked it out already.

 

The Two Rivers doesn’t even make it to being its own country!!!!! Let alone Manetheren. Literlally every character except for Elayne would have gotten behind Manetheren. Very dissapointing.

The Two Rivers is four villages and a bunch of farms at the outset. By the end, they've expanded a village to a town. It hardly merits being its own country. And of course it didn't end up being Manetheren - why on earth would it? Manetheren died 2,000 years ago, none of the people in the TR had even heard of it 2 years ago (so their attachment to it comes across as an affectation), a new country would be Manetheren in name only, and I don't think any major character really wanted it back or would have backed taking chunks out of Andor and Ghealdan to create it - it's not just Elayne, but Rand, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Lan, Moiraine, Cadsuane, Egwene, none of them would want it back. At the very least, they have no reason to, most of them like Elayne enough that they wouldn't want her to be screwed over for no reason, and even those who don't care about her would probably still object to the political disruption. Elayne was very reasonable about their treason, and offered them a great deal - they get the continued benefits of being part of Andor while maintaining a degree of political independence.

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Brandon wasn't perfect but he finished which is most important. Most people who bought the books aren't hardcore fans and wouldn't know the numbers don't match at TG or the timelines got tangled. I didn't even know that until coming on here. Besides

a. Despite moving forward in KOD, I still maintain RJ would have run it off the rails again

b. RJ had the story screwed up beyond repair so I doubt anyone could've done a proper job

c. Except for a select few, we haven't seen the notes to know what Brandon had to work with. We don't know the directives from Tor or Team Jordan to know what kind of control they exerted.

In summary, I think Brandon did the best anyone could.

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About Mat taking on Dem - also have to remember it only stopped direct flows at jim  and not Dem tossing rocks at him and such as Mat had allready discovered when escorting Elayne and Nyn.  Not to mention Dem was a blademaster, probably one of the best.  I am sure he could of taken Mat had it come to weapons.  That assuming he could escape from the seanchean to fight Dem.  Mostly Mat had no desire to be a hero.

 

As for BS, I am with Dem, BS might not of done a perfect job but given what he walked into he did as good as one could expect.  He did a bad job with Mat, but overall walking into the last books of a hugely popular series with  diehard fans.  Many were going to be disappointed no matter what.

 

The big clue about the brown no one really heard about,  she was the one in charge of the laborers who attacked the tower.

Edited by Sabio

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You made me curious so I looked when Siuan was arrested what was said of Danelle

 

Siuan angry that Danelle had failed to question the head mason about the numbe of workmen he had hired.  Siuan mentioned the head mason could rebuild the entire library with the amount of men he hired.   She thought Danelle was simply too dreamy.

 

Then when they barged into Siuan's offoce Siuan noticed "her big blue eyes were not dreamy at all"

 

Finally when they were standing in Siuan's office she noticed "Little Danelle  actually smirked at her"

 

Then simply Joile, Danelle and the others started  ransacking her office.

 

So not many clues but the big one was Danelle being in charge of the workmen who then attacked the tower.

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Brandon wasn't perfect but he finished which is most important. Most people who bought the books aren't hardcore fans and wouldn't know the numbers don't match at TG or the timelines got tangled. I didn't even know that until coming on here. Besides

a. Despite moving forward in KOD, I still maintain RJ would have run it off the rails again

b. RJ had the story screwed up beyond repair so I doubt anyone could've done a proper job

c. Except for a select few, we haven't seen the notes to know what Brandon had to work with. We don't know the directives from Tor or Team Jordan to know what kind of control they exerted.

In summary, I think Brandon did the best anyone could.

None of those points explain or excuse the problems with Brandon's prose. He's simply not as good a prose writer as RJ was. No amount of "only hardcore fans will notice the numbers don't add up" really addresses that. RJ was quite capable of going overboard with description and being long-winded. Brandon managed to do the same thing, but without RJ's flair, without RJ's skill with foreshadowing. Thus Brandon was, if anything, even more prone to padding than RJ was.

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Brandon wasn't perfect but he finished which is most important. Most people who bought the books aren't hardcore fans and wouldn't know the numbers don't match at TG or the timelines got tangled. I didn't even know that until coming on here. Besides

a. Despite moving forward in KOD, I still maintain RJ would have run it off the rails again

b. RJ had the story screwed up beyond repair so I doubt anyone could've done a proper job

c. Except for a select few, we haven't seen the notes to know what Brandon had to work with. We don't know the directives from Tor or Team Jordan to know what kind of control they exerted.

In summary, I think Brandon did the best anyone could.

None of those points explain or excuse the problems with Brandon's prose. He's simply not as good a prose writer as RJ was. No amount of "only hardcore fans will notice the numbers don't add up" really addresses that. RJ was quite capable of going overboard with description and being long-winded. Brandon managed to do the same thing, but without RJ's flair, without RJ's skill with foreshadowing. Thus Brandon was, if anything, even more prone to padding than RJ was.

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Brandon wasn't perfect but he finished which is most important. Most people who bought the books aren't hardcore fans and wouldn't know the numbers don't match at TG or the timelines got tangled. I didn't even know that until coming on here. Besides

a. Despite moving forward in KOD, I still maintain RJ would have run it off the rails again

b. RJ had the story screwed up beyond repair so I doubt anyone could've done a proper job

c. Except for a select few, we haven't seen the notes to know what Brandon had to work with. We don't know the directives from Tor or Team Jordan to know what kind of control they exerted.

In summary, I think Brandon did the best anyone could.

None of those points explain or excuse the problems with Brandon's prose. He's simply not as good a prose writer as RJ was. No amount of "only hardcore fans will notice the numbers don't add up" really addresses that. RJ was quite capable of going overboard with description and being long-winded. Brandon managed to do the same thing, but without RJ's flair, without RJ's skill with foreshadowing. Thus Brandon was, if anything, even more prone to padding than RJ was.

 

 

 

What you pointed out isn't something that Brandon did purposely. Instead he was/is a young writer who wasn't as skilled writer as RJ. Brandon has never denied that. In all seriousness, Harriet was never going to find someone skilled enough to finish the WoT, for no other reason than there was very little upside. No one who wrote it was going to finish the story as well as RJ even though RJ's version would have it's own problems. Instead competes against the version that everyone envisions RJ to have written. That's why no one with the skill to do it would do it. I always felt that Tad Williams would have done a stellar job, but what would have been his incentive?

 

The one criticism that I will lay at Brandon's feet is that he never finished the 2nd reread after taking a long break. I don't know how much of a difference it would have made regarding some of the smaller mistakes, but it was something that he could have done to improve the book. Also, and this probably wasn't his call, but if he had a couple diehard proof readers to check for smaller inconsistencies that would have improved the book also. None of that would have changed your criticism though.

Edited by Occams whiskey bottle

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Occams is correct the big thing BS was going to face is people saying RJ would of done it this way or RJ wouldn't of done that etc.. No matter what BS did he was always going to be compared to what people felt RJ would  of done.  I imagine many who were unhappy with BS version would of  been unhappy with RJ's version.

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I always find the BS conversation amusing. I'm of the impression that he did a pretty good job at what was basically an impossible task. You have to look at how things went down to appriciate what he did. First, he was NOT brought into the project until AFTER RJ had passed. There was no succession plan, just notes, outlines, and details known by Maria and Harriet. It's not like that when RJ knew he didn't have long to go that he sought our RJ and was able to pass on information on how things were going to shake out. Given that he was tasked with completing an extremely huge and complex project without ever having met the author who created and masterminded it tend to be more lenient.

 

That said, I also share the sentiments about where BS didn't get things quite right. Those 2 things were the Mat POVs (and Mat in general). The general tone of optimism despite how dire things actually were. This got a little more prevelant moving from TGS through AMOL. If you read BS's other books, particularly Mistborn, his hero characters tend to be very upbeat despite being severe underdogs whereas RJs hero characters felt a little more real.

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I always find the BS conversation amusing. I'm of the impression that he did a pretty good job at what was basically an impossible task. You have to look at how things went down to appriciate what he did. First, he was NOT brought into the project until AFTER RJ had passed. There was no succession plan, just notes, outlines, and details known by Maria and Harriet. It's not like that when RJ knew he didn't have long to go that he sought our RJ and was able to pass on information on how things were going to shake out. Given that he was tasked with completing an extremely huge and complex project without ever having met the author who created and masterminded it tend to be more lenient.

 

That said, I also share the sentiments about where BS didn't get things quite right. Those 2 things were the Mat POVs (and Mat in general). The general tone of optimism despite how dire things actually were. This got a little more prevelant moving from TGS through AMOL. If you read BS's other books, particularly Mistborn, his hero characters tend to be very upbeat despite being severe underdogs whereas RJs hero characters felt a little more real.

The thing that amuses me about the BS conversation is the tendency to make excuse after excuse for Brandon. Yes, he was dealing with a very difficult task. That doesn't mean we should refrain from pointing out the flaws of his work, any more than we refrain from pointing out the flaws of RJ's. The problems with thousands of channelers disappearing for the Last Battle and the timeline going all Steven Erikson on us (OK, Brandon didn't screw it up that badly) exist - saying "only hardcore fans will pick up on them" is not a defence. It's a problem, and it's one Team Jordan should have picked up on. "Brandon didn't screw it up deliberately". OK, but no-one was saying he did - he has far more to lose from such a thing than he does to gain. It's surely in his interest to make the ending as good as it possibly could be, in order to help encourage people to pick up his books afterwards. Some of the problems were a result of the conditions BS was working under - but some of them were problems that crop up again and again in Brandon's work. Trying to shoo away all criticism by saying rubbish like "he did the best he could", or worse still "he did the best anyone could" is to abandon critical thinking for fear of what, hurting his feelings? Leaving aside that he probably won't be reading this, he's a grown man, and a professional author - so people being critical of his work is something he should be used to, and he should be capable of dealing with. He may have done the best he could - but that does not mean we shouldn't say that his best was not always good enough. He may have done the best anyone could under the circumstances, but that argument is so laughably unprovable that one can't really give it any credit. It may well be, but there is no evidence you can provide to support that assertion, and so asking anyone to believe that this is the case is ludicrous. I don't see a reason to make endless excuses for Brandon's failures - but I also give him credit for his successes. It cuts both ways, you see. The difficulties Brandon faced with the finishing of WOT are not shields to protect him from any and all criticism, which is how they are all too often used. At times he did succeed despite the difficulties of the situation, at others he failed. Judge the work on its own merits.

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True but others compare what BS did to what RJ would of done which also isn't fair to an author.  Some wanted him to be RJ. 

Edited by Sabio

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I always find the BS conversation amusing. I'm of the impression that he did a pretty good job at what was basically an impossible task. You have to look at how things went down to appriciate what he did. First, he was NOT brought into the project until AFTER RJ had passed. There was no succession plan, just notes, outlines, and details known by Maria and Harriet. It's not like that when RJ knew he didn't have long to go that he sought our RJ and was able to pass on information on how things were going to shake out. Given that he was tasked with completing an extremely huge and complex project without ever having met the author who created and masterminded it tend to be more lenient.

 

That said, I also share the sentiments about where BS didn't get things quite right. Those 2 things were the Mat POVs (and Mat in general). The general tone of optimism despite how dire things actually were. This got a little more prevelant moving from TGS through AMOL. If you read BS's other books, particularly Mistborn, his hero characters tend to be very upbeat despite being severe underdogs whereas RJs hero characters felt a little more real.

The thing that amuses me about the BS conversation is the tendency to make excuse after excuse for Brandon. Yes, he was dealing with a very difficult task. That doesn't mean we should refrain from pointing out the flaws of his work, any more than we refrain from pointing out the flaws of RJ's. The problems with thousands of channelers disappearing for the Last Battle and the timeline going all Steven Erikson on us (OK, Brandon didn't screw it up that badly) exist - saying "only hardcore fans will pick up on them" is not a defence. It's a problem, and it's one Team Jordan should have picked up on. "Brandon didn't screw it up deliberately". OK, but no-one was saying he did - he has far more to lose from such a thing than he does to gain. It's surely in his interest to make the ending as good as it possibly could be, in order to help encourage people to pick up his books afterwards. Some of the problems were a result of the conditions BS was working under - but some of them were problems that crop up again and again in Brandon's work. Trying to shoo away all criticism by saying rubbish like "he did the best he could", or worse still "he did the best anyone could" is to abandon critical thinking for fear of what, hurting his feelings? Leaving aside that he probably won't be reading this, he's a grown man, and a professional author - so people being critical of his work is something he should be used to, and he should be capable of dealing with. He may have done the best he could - but that does not mean we shouldn't say that his best was not always good enough. He may have done the best anyone could under the circumstances, but that argument is so laughably unprovable that one can't really give it any credit. It may well be, but there is no evidence you can provide to support that assertion, and so asking anyone to believe that this is the case is ludicrous. I don't see a reason to make endless excuses for Brandon's failures - but I also give him credit for his successes. It cuts both ways, you see. The difficulties Brandon faced with the finishing of WOT are not shields to protect him from any and all criticism, which is how they are all too often used. At times he did succeed despite the difficulties of the situation, at others he failed. Judge the work on its own merits.

 

I don't see any excuses given. I pointed out facts. BS did not know or have any insights beyond a reader until AFTER RJ had passed. There was no direct transfer of knowledge for him to have a great chance of success. Yes notes were left behind as well as knowledgeable assistants. That's no where near enough to pick up a project as large as the conclusion of the WOT and be perfect, which is what fans always want. That's not making an excuse, or giving him a pass. That's accepting the truth of the situation of it being ALL that we are ever going to get. Whining and Bitching about this or that is pointless. Everyone knows he wasn RJ, and BS even said he wasn't trying to be RJ.  He finished the story in the best way he knew how and it definitely had flaws and it's almost definitely not what RJ had produced.

 

There is also the fact that TOR/Team Jordan were unlikely to get an established author to fill in. Do you thing GRRM would stop ASOIAF to finish it knowing that #1 he would have to stop his own project and #2 that no matter what he did it would be compared and picked apart. TOR/Team Jordan had to go with a new lesser known Author that was willing to use the completion of WOT as an opportunity. Given that, I thought BS was a good choice and the end product did close things out, tied up most of the loose ends, and for the most part was entertaining.

 

Was there a little too much Androl? Yes. Did the tone change from TGS to AMOL as there was less and less RJ manuscript? Yes. Did he get Mat right, no. Lots of flaws. No way to know how RJ would have ended things or if we would still be sitting here waiting for a book had he not passed.

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Harriet was never going to find someone skilled enough to finish the WoT

 

Do you still believe in fairy tales (you know, the whole eulogy thing)? TOR was never going to find someone skilled enough to finish the WoT. It's all about TOR, it's all about the money (getting back their money, the advance payment for the new series by Jordan). Harriet was backed right into a corner, so she even had to sell the TV rights for $600000 seven years ago!

 

BS is is the Dan Brown of epic fantasy. A popular bad 'writer', who has rabid fanbase. He's churning out books very quickly, that's why TOR picked him.

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I always find the BS conversation amusing. I'm of the impression that he did a pretty good job at what was basically an impossible task. You have to look at how things went down to appriciate what he did. First, he was NOT brought into the project until AFTER RJ had passed. There was no succession plan, just notes, outlines, and details known by Maria and Harriet. It's not like that when RJ knew he didn't have long to go that he sought our RJ and was able to pass on information on how things were going to shake out. Given that he was tasked with completing an extremely huge and complex project without ever having met the author who created and masterminded it tend to be more lenient.

 

That said, I also share the sentiments about where BS didn't get things quite right. Those 2 things were the Mat POVs (and Mat in general). The general tone of optimism despite how dire things actually were. This got a little more prevelant moving from TGS through AMOL. If you read BS's other books, particularly Mistborn, his hero characters tend to be very upbeat despite being severe underdogs whereas RJs hero characters felt a little more real.

The thing that amuses me about the BS conversation is the tendency to make excuse after excuse for Brandon. Yes, he was dealing with a very difficult task. That doesn't mean we should refrain from pointing out the flaws of his work, any more than we refrain from pointing out the flaws of RJ's. The problems with thousands of channelers disappearing for the Last Battle and the timeline going all Steven Erikson on us (OK, Brandon didn't screw it up that badly) exist - saying "only hardcore fans will pick up on them" is not a defence. It's a problem, and it's one Team Jordan should have picked up on. "Brandon didn't screw it up deliberately". OK, but no-one was saying he did - he has far more to lose from such a thing than he does to gain. It's surely in his interest to make the ending as good as it possibly could be, in order to help encourage people to pick up his books afterwards. Some of the problems were a result of the conditions BS was working under - but some of them were problems that crop up again and again in Brandon's work. Trying to shoo away all criticism by saying rubbish like "he did the best he could", or worse still "he did the best anyone could" is to abandon critical thinking for fear of what, hurting his feelings? Leaving aside that he probably won't be reading this, he's a grown man, and a professional author - so people being critical of his work is something he should be used to, and he should be capable of dealing with. He may have done the best he could - but that does not mean we shouldn't say that his best was not always good enough. He may have done the best anyone could under the circumstances, but that argument is so laughably unprovable that one can't really give it any credit. It may well be, but there is no evidence you can provide to support that assertion, and so asking anyone to believe that this is the case is ludicrous. I don't see a reason to make endless excuses for Brandon's failures - but I also give him credit for his successes. It cuts both ways, you see. The difficulties Brandon faced with the finishing of WOT are not shields to protect him from any and all criticism, which is how they are all too often used. At times he did succeed despite the difficulties of the situation, at others he failed. Judge the work on its own merits.

 

I don't see any excuses given. I pointed out facts. BS did not know or have any insights beyond a reader until AFTER RJ had passed. There was no direct transfer of knowledge for him to have a great chance of success. Yes notes were left behind as well as knowledgeable assistants. That's no where near enough to pick up a project as large as the conclusion of the WOT and be perfect, which is what fans always want. That's not making an excuse, or giving him a pass. That's accepting the truth of the situation of it being ALL that we are ever going to get. Whining and Bitching about this or that is pointless. Everyone knows he wasn RJ, and BS even said he wasn't trying to be RJ.  He finished the story in the best way he knew how and it definitely had flaws and it's almost definitely not what RJ had produced.

 

There is also the fact that TOR/Team Jordan were unlikely to get an established author to fill in. Do you thing GRRM would stop ASOIAF to finish it knowing that #1 he would have to stop his own project and #2 that no matter what he did it would be compared and picked apart. TOR/Team Jordan had to go with a new lesser known Author that was willing to use the completion of WOT as an opportunity. Given that, I thought BS was a good choice and the end product did close things out, tied up most of the loose ends, and for the most part was entertaining.

 

Was there a little too much Androl? Yes. Did the tone change from TGS to AMOL as there was less and less RJ manuscript? Yes. Did he get Mat right, no. Lots of flaws. No way to know how RJ would have ended things or if we would still be sitting here waiting for a book had he not passed.

 

And back to the excuses. It's likely that the books would have been improved had more time been spent on rewrites and editing. Brandon's unfamiliarity with the work beyond that of a reader (indeed, less than many readers here) makes the need for this sort of thing greater. If Brandon wasn't willing to put more effort into rewriting (and he admits he's not a big fan of extensive rewrites, preferring to finish a book and move on to the next), then he didn't do his best. He just finished and moved on. "It wasn't going to be perfect". Of course not, but how does that justify the flaws and failures? Why did he get this character wrong, why were the numbers wrong there, why was the prose so shoddy? It might not be perfect, but that's not to say that it can't be criticised for falling short - "less than perfect can cover everything from "... but still very good" to just plain awful. The acceptance that imperfection is inevitable does not excuse every imperfection, and saying it was never going to be perfect excuses nothing when for many it wasn't just imperfect it was outright bad. The line about Tor being unable to get an established author is another excuse - established and good are not the same thing. The problem with GRRM is that he's busy with his own mega-series - if he put it on hold to finish WoT then the "he'll die before he finishes ASoIaF" crowd would be proved correct because he'd get lynched. But there are established authors who are not good and good authors with no profile. A lot of authors prefer to write their own works rather than be tied to someone else's vision, but not all of them. There are any number of authors out there, and the argument you're using is trying to boil it down to "guys like GRRM were busy, so it had to be Brandon". Because there's no-one else. And by the way, just because something is a fact, doesn't mean it's not an excuse.

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I always find the BS conversation amusing. I'm of the impression that he did a pretty good job at what was basically an impossible task. You have to look at how things went down to appriciate what he did. First, he was NOT brought into the project until AFTER RJ had passed. There was no succession plan, just notes, outlines, and details known by Maria and Harriet. It's not like that when RJ knew he didn't have long to go that he sought our RJ and was able to pass on information on how things were going to shake out. Given that he was tasked with completing an extremely huge and complex project without ever having met the author who created and masterminded it tend to be more lenient.

 

That said, I also share the sentiments about where BS didn't get things quite right. Those 2 things were the Mat POVs (and Mat in general). The general tone of optimism despite how dire things actually were. This got a little more prevelant moving from TGS through AMOL. If you read BS's other books, particularly Mistborn, his hero characters tend to be very upbeat despite being severe underdogs whereas RJs hero characters felt a little more real.

The thing that amuses me about the BS conversation is the tendency to make excuse after excuse for Brandon. Yes, he was dealing with a very difficult task. That doesn't mean we should refrain from pointing out the flaws of his work, any more than we refrain from pointing out the flaws of RJ's. The problems with thousands of channelers disappearing for the Last Battle and the timeline going all Steven Erikson on us (OK, Brandon didn't screw it up that badly) exist - saying "only hardcore fans will pick up on them" is not a defence. It's a problem, and it's one Team Jordan should have picked up on. "Brandon didn't screw it up deliberately". OK, but no-one was saying he did - he has far more to lose from such a thing than he does to gain. It's surely in his interest to make the ending as good as it possibly could be, in order to help encourage people to pick up his books afterwards. Some of the problems were a result of the conditions BS was working under - but some of them were problems that crop up again and again in Brandon's work. Trying to shoo away all criticism by saying rubbish like "he did the best he could", or worse still "he did the best anyone could" is to abandon critical thinking for fear of what, hurting his feelings? Leaving aside that he probably won't be reading this, he's a grown man, and a professional author - so people being critical of his work is something he should be used to, and he should be capable of dealing with. He may have done the best he could - but that does not mean we shouldn't say that his best was not always good enough. He may have done the best anyone could under the circumstances, but that argument is so laughably unprovable that one can't really give it any credit. It may well be, but there is no evidence you can provide to support that assertion, and so asking anyone to believe that this is the case is ludicrous. I don't see a reason to make endless excuses for Brandon's failures - but I also give him credit for his successes. It cuts both ways, you see. The difficulties Brandon faced with the finishing of WOT are not shields to protect him from any and all criticism, which is how they are all too often used. At times he did succeed despite the difficulties of the situation, at others he failed. Judge the work on its own merits.

 

I don't see any excuses given. I pointed out facts. BS did not know or have any insights beyond a reader until AFTER RJ had passed. There was no direct transfer of knowledge for him to have a great chance of success. Yes notes were left behind as well as knowledgeable assistants. That's no where near enough to pick up a project as large as the conclusion of the WOT and be perfect, which is what fans always want. That's not making an excuse, or giving him a pass. That's accepting the truth of the situation of it being ALL that we are ever going to get. Whining and Bitching about this or that is pointless. Everyone knows he wasn RJ, and BS even said he wasn't trying to be RJ.  He finished the story in the best way he knew how and it definitely had flaws and it's almost definitely not what RJ had produced.

 

There is also the fact that TOR/Team Jordan were unlikely to get an established author to fill in. Do you thing GRRM would stop ASOIAF to finish it knowing that #1 he would have to stop his own project and #2 that no matter what he did it would be compared and picked apart. TOR/Team Jordan had to go with a new lesser known Author that was willing to use the completion of WOT as an opportunity. Given that, I thought BS was a good choice and the end product did close things out, tied up most of the loose ends, and for the most part was entertaining.

 

Was there a little too much Androl? Yes. Did the tone change from TGS to AMOL as there was less and less RJ manuscript? Yes. Did he get Mat right, no. Lots of flaws. No way to know how RJ would have ended things or if we would still be sitting here waiting for a book had he not passed.

 

And back to the excuses. It's likely that the books would have been improved had more time been spent on rewrites and editing. Brandon's unfamiliarity with the work beyond that of a reader (indeed, less than many readers here) makes the need for this sort of thing greater. If Brandon wasn't willing to put more effort into rewriting (and he admits he's not a big fan of extensive rewrites, preferring to finish a book and move on to the next), then he didn't do his best. He just finished and moved on. "It wasn't going to be perfect". Of course not, but how does that justify the flaws and failures? Why did he get this character wrong, why were the numbers wrong there, why was the prose so shoddy? It might not be perfect, but that's not to say that it can't be criticised for falling short - "less than perfect can cover everything from "... but still very good" to just plain awful. The acceptance that imperfection is inevitable does not excuse every imperfection, and saying it was never going to be perfect excuses nothing when for many it wasn't just imperfect it was outright bad. The line about Tor being unable to get an established author is another excuse - established and good are not the same thing. The problem with GRRM is that he's busy with his own mega-series - if he put it on hold to finish WoT then the "he'll die before he finishes ASoIaF" crowd would be proved correct because he'd get lynched. But there are established authors who are not good and good authors with no profile. A lot of authors prefer to write their own works rather than be tied to someone else's vision, but not all of them. There are any number of authors out there, and the argument you're using is trying to boil it down to "guys like GRRM were busy, so it had to be Brandon". Because there's no-one else. And by the way, just because something is a fact, doesn't mean it's not an excuse.

 

 

Well, at this point I can see that there is no discussion to be had here. Everything anyone says that is pro BS is an excuse. Your opinion is the only one that counts apparently.

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I was bloody hell satisfied. That could be the many years after KoD and then grieving RJ: Anyway, I'm happy someone somewhat upto par who was sanctioned by the estate dug deep and did the best they could. Sure I read between the lines on Mat in the Gathering Storm. But this unique artwork is finished, I do not aggrieve BS, I applaude him.

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