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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Moose4185

ToM - Tam Travels Somehow?

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So, I understand the argument behind the disjointed timelines in tGS and ToM, but I'm on a re-read and I've noticed something.  We first learn that gateways for Traveling and Skimming aren't working around Perrin's camp when he is approaching the Whitecloaks.  Grady and Neald tell him they couldn't make any that morning and then when Perrin asks for someone to travel back to the camp to get a tent and chairs for an impromptu parlay with Galad, they still don't work.  There is a three day hiatus placed on the battle for a 'trial' of Perrin with Morgase in judgement during which time Faile mentions they still don't work as she notices refugees walking out of camp in lieu of gateways.  During that time a bubble of evil makes weapons come alive in Perrin's camp and as he is walking around checking on everything afterwords Tam comes up to Perrin and tells him he needs to leave and couldn't explain why.  I assume Nynaeve had arrived via gateway on Cadsuane's orders to bring Tam to Rand in Tear.

 

My question is: how did she make a gateway into the area of the dreamspike?  It had already been established that they didn't work trying to leave the area.  Perhaps they work coming from outside in and Nynaeve left it open as Tam said his goodbyes?  Otherwise it seems like an oversight and makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

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Nynaeve arrived and got Tam before the dreanspike was placed permanently. Nynaeve would have reported the exact same issues that Rand had trying to get to the Black Tower. It was only about a few days at most between Tam leaving and the dreamspike's activation

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So, I understand the argument behind the disjointed timelines in tGS and ToM, but I'm on a re-read and I've noticed something.  We first learn that gateways for Traveling and Skimming aren't working around Perrin's camp when he is approaching the Whitecloaks.  Grady and Neald tell him they couldn't make any that morning and then when Perrin asks for someone to travel back to the camp to get a tent and chairs for an impromptu parlay with Galad, they still don't work.  There is a three day hiatus placed on the battle for a 'trial' of Perrin with Morgase in judgement during which time Faile mentions they still don't work as she notices refugees walking out of camp in lieu of gateways.  During that time a bubble of evil makes weapons come alive in Perrin's camp and as he is walking around checking on everything afterwords Tam comes up to Perrin and tells him he needs to leave and couldn't explain why.  I assume Nynaeve had arrived via gateway on Cadsuane's orders to bring Tam to Rand in Tear.

 

My question is: how did she make a gateway into the area of the dreamspike?  It had already been established that they didn't work trying to leave the area.  Perhaps they work coming from outside in and Nynaeve left it open as Tam said his goodbyes?  Otherwise it seems like an oversight and makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

 

I had the same question after I read ToM.  At the time, it seemed to me that Brandon and Team Jordan had made a mistake here.  However, I believe I did read an explanation similar to what wotfan4472 posted:

 

 

Nynaeve arrived and got Tam before the dreanspike was placed permanently. Nynaeve would have reported the exact same issues that Rand had trying to get to the Black Tower. It was only about a few days at most between Tam leaving and the dreamspike's activation

 

Perhaps this is right, but I would have to re-read the book in order to convince myself that this is a viable explanation.  My impression based on my first and only read-through of ToM (a couple of years ago now) was that making a gateway should not have been possible, because gateways were already not working before that point.  (But it is also possible that I am mistaken.)

 

I also heard one other explanation, that perhaps Tam and Nynaeve Traveled by opening a gateway some distance away from Perrin's camp, outside the area affected by the dreamspike.

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I always  assumed  since Nyn probably didn't know exactly where perrin's army was she probably didn't go right to his camp but got close  and then found them.

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My impression was that it was Cadsuane that went there; though it could have been someone whom Cadsuane sent.

Regardless of the who, they probably went to some place outside the dreamspike's boundary.

 

If I recall correctly, the Gateway problem started before Tam's departure.

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I'm just re-reading this and came up with the same thing.

 

1. Dreamspike is placed before Galad recognises Magdin.

 

2. Tam informs Rand that Morgase is alive.

 

3. Rand meets Egwene post veins of Gold, this meeting is before Messana is found

 

4. Dreamspike isn't removed until Messana is uncovered.

 

Only 2 explanations work.

 

Tam walked outside dreamspike area with someone who actually traveled close.

 

Or the wilder theory. We often get told how time is different in TAR did Perrin moving the dreamspike actually take days in thereal world

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Yes...They never did explain that one, I think he traveled with Cadsuane. She did leave Rand at one point and came back with Tam, so I'm assuming that she "gave him m a lift" somewhere.

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Yes...They never did explain that one, I think he traveled with Cadsuane. She did leave Rand at one point and came back with Tam, so I'm assuming that she "gave him m a lift" somewhere.

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From what I recall, the dreamspike was place to test it, and then was disengaged, and later permanently placed/activated to spring the trap once all the pieces were in place.  Had it been left in place too early, the armies would have marched on out of its range eventually.  I highly suspect that some of, if not all of, the shadow spawn used to attack the White Cloaks were brought in from a parallel world using the portal stones.  Too bad the forces of light didn't borrow a few Seanchan armies from parallel worlds, or some fellow White and Black Tower people.  Seeing a light-loving Taim looking upon his evil doppelganger would have been funny.   

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from steven cooper wheel of time timelines:

1.may 21 1000 n.e. rand balefires natrin's barrow.

2.the same night,cadsuane decides to find perrin

3.june 1 1000 n.e. rand tells nynaeve that perrin is camped near an enormous

fallen statue.

4.the same night at the stone,rand finds tam waiting inside his rooms.

 

post natrin's barrow,moridin finds graendal hiding inside a cavern on an island

in the aryth ocean,brings her to his place and gives her the dreamspike,this

leaves us with two unanswered questions:

1.when did moridin give graendal the dreamspike?

2.when did graendal activate it?

there's a gap of 10 days between natrin's barrow and tam's arrival at the stone

and i couldn't find enough information to synchronize graendal's timeline with cadsuane's.

Edited by jack of shadows

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Graendal was in contact with Slayer, so try tracking his movements during that time period. I remember his POV having several references to an anonymous Forsaken he had contact with during that period.

Edited by Kesiera_Sedai

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about the portal stone; I would guess that the Dreadlords used a same-world portal stone to transport the Shadowspawn.  the parallel-world Shadowspawn were probably eliminated by each other and/or by other creatures.

 

about when the dreamspike were activated; if I remember correctly, Perrin's Ashamen had trouble with Gateways sometime durring the trial.  and I think Perrin noticed the dome around the same time.

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ok,found it,towers of midnight,chapter 26 parley:

1.may 31 1000 n.e. grady tells perrin that he cannot open a gateway.

2.same day,perrin meets galad.

3.same day,galad meets morgase.

4.june 1 1000 n.e. tam returns from a nearby village and informs perrin

that he must leave.

tam was definitely still in perrin's camp when the dreamspike was activated.

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Except the village occurrence was a test, remember. The effect stopped. Tam could not have talked to Rand had it stayed up, as Graendal would have been tipped off that Rand's father was present. He had to have left between the first activation and the second when they camped by the statue. The Shadow would have needed time to put all the pieces of the trap in place, since the trollocs would need to be gathered and their own channellers in place to spring it.

Edited by wotfan4472

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village occurrence; the Blight Perrin's channelers destroyed?  that I take to be one of the shifted places the Dark One moved; not necessarily a test for anyone.

not sure if Tam's presence had anything to do with Graendal's plans; Perrin was her intended target.  and not sure whether or not she knew Tam was there; Tam was not mentioned in any of her scenes.

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@wotfan4472,

we are talking about two different villages,the strange and deserted village

in the middle of the "blight"(towers of midnight chapter 4) is not the same as

the perfectly normal village tam returns from(towers of midnight chapter 29).

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@wotfan4472

 

It is after the full activation of the dreamspike. Tam though after one of his scouting trips comes and tells Perrin he needs to leave. I assume in the search for the exact location of the statue described Cadsuane traveled close and found/was found by Elyas and Tam.

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Yeah. I thought Tam's scouting was during the first ocurrance when Graendal tested it. They were close to a village then. Well, in that case, how did the Shadow not know that Tam was with Perrin?? I am surprised they did not try to capture or kill him if he was present when the trap was set. They had to have been monitoring Perrin's movements and comings and goings from camp. Especially if rumours of Nynaeve's appearance got out around the area. Graendal had to have been watching for something like this, she is the only one of the Forsaken that would even think to watch for that. Particularly when she knows that Perrin and Rand are friends. She would never once believe that fight they had was real if she was told about it happening. She would realise very quickly that it was a misdirection.

Edited by wotfan4472

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not sure if the Shadow cares about Tam.  from some Slayer POV (Winter's Heart), it seems they know Rand's true parentage.

as far as I recall, Tam was never mentioned in any Darkfriend's/Forsaken's scene.  and as far as I recall, Tam was never the intended target for anything from the Shadow.

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not sure if the Shadow cares about Tam.  from some Slayer POV (Winter's Heart), it seems they know Rand's true parentage.

as far as I recall, Tam was never mentioned in any Darkfriend's/Forsaken's scene.  and as far as I recall, Tam was never the intended target for anything from the Shadow.

Some the shadow should have not overlooked.  Imagine how unhinged Rand would have been if Tam was killed.  Yeah, he would have become so hard he would have shattered before the Dragonmount moment.

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not sure if the Shadow cares about Tam. from some Slayer POV (Winter's Heart), it seems they know Rand's true parentage.

as far as I recall, Tam was never mentioned in any Darkfriend's/Forsaken's scene. and as far as I recall, Tam was never the intended target for anything from the Shadow.

Some the shadow should have not overlooked. Imagine how unhinged Rand would have been if Tam was killed. Yeah, he would have become so hard he would have shattered before the Dragonmount moment.

Yeah, I think Slayer knew he was Rand's uncle. Based on Elayne's description of the man her, Egwene, and Nynaeve saw in TAR, I don't think it was too hard to miss (she described him as looking like an older, harder looking Rand).

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there's a big gap between the readers knowledge and the character's knowledge,

we know what's inside rand's head,the shadow doesn't have that privilege,they

(his enemies),assume,speculate or act with incomplete information,the most obvious

example is the trolloc assault at the two rivers,it was meant to lure rand out of the

stone back to the two rivers,but the shadow's trap failed because rand went to the

aiel waste instead,now,we knew that rand agonized over his decision to ignore the

two rivers,but his enemies didn't know it.

rand,for his part,never gave the slightest indication that he cared about the two rivers

and its people,he made a conscious decision to ignore his childhood/youth village

completely and never returned to visit,not even once.(in fact,out of the emond's

field 5,perrin was the only one who returned to the two rivers).

when rand found tam waiting inside his rooms at the stone,it was their first meeting

in 2 years and 3 months,so,i,for one,am not surprised that the shadow never made

a conscious decision to attack tam.

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there's a big gap between the readers knowledge and the character's knowledge,

we know what's inside rand's head,the shadow doesn't have that privilege,they

(his enemies),assume,speculate or act with incomplete information,the most obvious

example is the trolloc assault at the two rivers,it was meant to lure rand out of the

stone back to the two rivers,but the shadow's trap failed because rand went to the

aiel waste instead,now,we knew that rand agonized over his decision to ignore the

two rivers,but his enemies didn't know it.

rand,for his part,never gave the slightest indication that he cared about the two rivers

and its people,he made a conscious decision to ignore his childhood/youth village

completely and never returned to visit,not even once.(in fact,out of the emond's

field 5,perrin was the only one who returned to the two rivers).

when rand found tam waiting inside his rooms at the stone,it was their first meeting

in 2 years and 3 months,so,i,for one,am not surprised that the shadow never made

a conscious decision to attack tam.

You're absolutely right, when any author writes from the third-person omniscient POV, the reader has to keep in mind that you're getting way more info than the characters. In TWoT, this makes lots of events that the characters agonize over kinda hilarious from the reader'sPOV, especially when it's Nynaeve. When it's Egwene it makes her seem like she thinks she knows everything, but at least she usually consults with some of the older, more experienced women before acting (at least the ones who weren't trying to control her) which I think is why she kept Siuan and Leane so close. But it irks me when it's Perrin... it's annoying because it sometimes makes him seem dim-witted when in actuality he's just a regular person who's not good at the Games of Houses since, like Rand, he's just your average straightforward, pull-no-punches type of guy.

 

By the way, I apologize if I'm going way off-topic with this...Should I start another thread?

Edited by Kesiera_Sedai

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