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'Wheel of Time' Hierarchy

  

22 members have voted

  1. 1. Which human group has/had the best hierarchy?

    • Aes_Sedia/Accepted/Novice
    • Kin
    • Asha'man/Dedicaded/Soldier
    • Atha'an Shadar
      0
    • Black Ajah
    • Dreadlords
      0
    • Aiel
    • Tuatha'an
      0
    • Atha'an Miere
    • Amayar
      0
    • Seanchan
    • Children of Light
    • Dragonsworn
      0
    • Band of the Red Hand
    • Forsaken
      0
    • Shara
      0
    • some country (specify country)
    • depends on something (specify the something)
    • other (please specify)
      0
    • undecided
      0
  2. 2. Which non-human creature has/had the best heirarchy?

    • Ogier
    • Aelfinn/Eelfinn
    • wolves
    • horses
      0
    • cats/dogs
      0
    • Torm
      0
    • Corlm
      0
    • Lopar
      0
    • Grolm
      0
    • Raken/To'raken
      0
    • S'redit
      0
    • Tollocs/Myrddraal
    • Draghkar
      0
    • Darkhounds
      0
    • Gray Men
      0
    • Forger
      0
    • Gholam
      0
    • depends on something (specify the something)
      0
    • other (please specify)
      0
    • undecided
      0


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Black Ajah managed to infiltrate one of the most powerful groups and keep their identity hidden for all that time. Only the infiltration of a very smart person and a loophole (which is actually a mistake from the Dark One) stopped their plans. 

Never liked how Aes Sedai had their hierarchy. All based on power, but nothing on intelliegence. If a hierarchy allows someone as Elaida to lead them, well that hierarchy has failled. On the other side Aiel (Wise Ones) were all on the will of the person. I think that a combination of power, intelligience, willpower and charisma was the right choice for a system to succedd (although even then that isn't guaranteed considering that the likes of Ishamael, Demandred, Aginor and co joined the dark side depsite having all those attributes).

Found Saechan very crazy for my liking although they system worked incredibly well. Black Tower on the other side had the worst system, but it was a system very much needed on the time of crisis.

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Sort of depends on the focus/expertise of the group in question. The Asha'man are a group focused entirely on battle. Their progression through the ranks depends essentially on power, although there are some exceptions. The most powerful will probably also be the most experienced, because of how male channellers gain strength, and probably the most disciplined. For the Last Battle, that works, since they were just supposed to be soldiers, even weapons. Failing to change hierarchy to suit their new purpose, might lead to the same problems the Aes Sedai have concerning the power/rank dynamic goes.

 

The Aes Sedai are also flawed because absolute loyalty to the WT, and even willing isolation from the world, are central to their progression. That may be a leftover from when Aes Sedai were greatly feared, and even hated.

 

The Seanchan system seems quite efficient, but a single mistake could lead to death, which is a rather glaring flaw in my opinion.

 

The Atha'an Miere are fine except for the part about a Windfinder basically all the way back down the ladder should their captain die.

 

The Band of the Red Hand seems to be excellently organised, which isn't very surprising considering Mat is the commander.

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Tie between the Band and the Aiel for me. Similar reasons that they both value intelligence over birth or power, mostly anyway :)

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Not sure on the best. Most of them have their faults.

 

But I would have to agree Reven, on the White Tower hierarchy. The hierarchy of Novice < Accepted < Full Sister makes sense. But basing the sister rankings off power is plain discrimination. 

Edited by Icedragon

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Black Ajah managed to infiltrate one of the most powerful groups and keep their identity hidden for all that time. Only the infiltration of a very smart person and a loophole (which is actually a mistake from the Dark One) stopped their plans. 

 

Never liked how Aes Sedai had their hierarchy. All based on power, but nothing on intelliegence. If a hierarchy allows someone as Elaida to lead them, well that hierarchy has failled. On the other side Aiel (Wise Ones) were all on the will of the person. I think that a combination of power, intelligience, willpower and charisma was the right choice for a system to succedd (although even then that isn't guaranteed considering that the likes of Ishamael, Demandred, Aginor and co joined the dark side depsite having all those attributes).

 

Found Saechan very crazy for my liking although they system worked incredibly well. Black Tower on the other side had the worst system, but it was a system very much needed on the time of crisis.

I wouldn't say that the BA infiltrated the Aes Sedai, they were sort of born from within it.  Novices and Accepted who were darkfriends or who were seen to be potential recruits were approached upon being raised.  Darkfriends are everywhere in every society so it wasn't unexpected.

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Voted for Band of the Red Hand here.  It was the ultimate fighting force with structure, advanced tactics, and a clear chain of command.  The Seanchan just have the wow factor of exotic animals and armor, and we saw what Mat and the Band did to every Seanchan force they faced with minimal losses and maximum body count.  Mat in command of the Seanchan really wasn't polished up and displayed to great effect unfortunately. 

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Black Ajah managed to infiltrate one of the most powerful groups and keep their identity hidden for all that time. Only the infiltration of a very smart person and a loophole (which is actually a mistake from the Dark One) stopped their plans. 

 

Never liked how Aes Sedai had their hierarchy. All based on power, but nothing on intelliegence. If a hierarchy allows someone as Elaida to lead them, well that hierarchy has failled. On the other side Aiel (Wise Ones) were all on the will of the person. I think that a combination of power, intelligience, willpower and charisma was the right choice for a system to succedd (although even then that isn't guaranteed considering that the likes of Ishamael, Demandred, Aginor and co joined the dark side depsite having all those attributes).

 

Found Saechan very crazy for my liking although they system worked incredibly well. Black Tower on the other side had the worst system, but it was a system very much needed on the time of crisis.

I wouldn't say that the BA infiltrated the Aes Sedai, they were sort of born from within it.  Novices and Accepted who were darkfriends or who were seen to be potential recruits were approached upon being raised.  Darkfriends are everywhere in every society so it wasn't unexpected.

 

 

Well, they still managed to get hundreds of their agents there, killing at-least an Amyrlin Seat and a few other very important Aes Sedai while nobody even gave a thought that Black Ajah might exist. Then they orchestrated the stilling of a brilliant Amyrlin Seat, putting in her place an idiot which resulted on the Tower getting divided. And then to conclude, they managed to put a baby Amyrlin Seat on the small tower.

 

It's only two mistakes were:

1) Verin infiltrating and then sabotaging them. This isn't their fault, it is the fault of the Dark One for making the loophole on the oath.

2) Egwene being magnificient. No-one could have suspected that an 18-19 years old girl will become the greatest Amyrlin Seat ever on the space of a few months.

 

So basically, they managed to do everything they wanted on White Tower and if it wasn't for two random variables (which were completely unpredictable) the war would have been completely different and probably won by their shadow.

 

While it isn't an infiltration on the true sense (the agents came from the Tower on the first place) it was near it and brilliantly done.

 

 

Voted for Band of the Red Hand here.  It was the ultimate fighting force with structure, advanced tactics, and a clear chain of command.  The Seanchan just have the wow factor of exotic animals and armor, and we saw what Mat and the Band did to every Seanchan force they faced with minimal losses and maximum body count.  Mat in command of the Seanchan really wasn't polished up and displayed to great effect unfortunately. 

Mat plays with cheats though. Similarily to Rand, he shouldn't be count on this discussions. Basically, regardless of the odds and the number of forces, he will win somehow against anyone.

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A good hierarchy to me would be one that has at least these qualities::

-Each rank having some degree of accountability.

-rules for promotion/demotion being just/fair/etc.

-punishments being reasonable with both rank and crime.

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For humans, the groups that elect their leaders seem to fit each of those qualities.

-White Tower

-Sea Folk

-Whitecloaks

and these countries::

-Illian

-Arad Doman

-Tarabon

 

for non-humans, these seem to come close::

-Ogier

-wolves

and I would guess both "finn" creatures.

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Q.1 

 

I chose depends. There are a number of good hierarchies. It also depends on what type of hierarchy we are talking about. Military or civil. 

 

Since it seems to be what people are talking about, I'll go with military. 

 

The Band - Likely the most solid: Negatives are the large luck factor and reliance on Mat's skill. If we are just talking about structure in general, it would probably be the most stable and effective. A big plus is the meritocracy that discards social status and nationality, although this could conceivably cause problems without a ta'veren like Mat to lead them. 

 

The Seanchan: Extremely effective and adaptable. The only weakness in it is the class structure. However, 'commoners' who prove themselves worthy can be elevated to the Blood, although perhaps not that often. If we factor in morality, then the damane is a hole in the hierarchy.  

 

Aiel - Big on merit, but too much tradition and protocol. Also seems to be based (at least the Wise Ones) on stubborn resilience, which does not necessarily mean competence. 

 

Asha'man- Perfect for a fighting force. The weaknesses were mostly due to the prejudice Taim, who promoted and demoted who he wanted. This of course is another problem, having one leader. Someone like Logain would certainly have been much better, but having one person in control always has it's pitfalls. 

 

Borderlanders - They seem to be pretty good, only thing is we know relatively little. However, the command system works well, where everyone in the army knows their place, so if one leader dies, the next knows what to do and so forth. 

 

2.  For non-human I chose Trolloc/Myrddraal simply because they were the best option, not because they were any good. 

 

It's straight forward, relentless and brutal. Plently of problems, like the link between Myrddraal's and their Fists, the chaotic nature of Trollocs who have no discipline etc.. 

 

The Wolves don't really seem to have a hierarchy, the Finns are too unknown to guess at. The only ones left are the Ogier, and they aren't the best structured. Very traditional and xenophobic, take a long time to deliberate. It might be alright for the Ogier if they were alone, but with humans and shadowspawn, they get left behind.  

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Q.1 

 

I chose depends. There are a number of good hierarchies. It also depends on what type of hierarchy we are talking about. Military or civil. 

 

Since it seems to be what people are talking about, I'll go with military.

what about civil?

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Well, civil hierarchy, I wouldn't exactly recommend any of them. It also depends on what you are looking for. Safe, fair, productive? For me, it depends on the ability to stop corruption and equality. Safety and productivity are only guaranteed if the higher powers are efficient.  

 

The Aiel are perhaps the most equal, they don't have nobility, but the abundance of traditional restrictions stop them from being progressive. The clan clashes also make it terrible with all the blood feuds and what not. 

 

The Seanchan civil system is insane. The only merits are that the Blood is not static, and one can be raised or stripped of that power and the empire is generally safer than the rest of the world. However, that safety comes at a great price and could turn sour at any time depending on the political climate. 

 

The Borderlands only work out because of the constant threat of Shadowspawn has everyone occupied. It's too rigid for social progression.  

 

Andor - It's only good because it has good rulers. As a hierarchy it is pretty restricted. Set noble houses and the ruler can only be female. It is lucky that the people are in general fair and just. Get one bad ruler though, and it would turn bad quickly. 

 

Far Madding - It has one of the better systems for being a council but fails with the matriarchal dominance much the same as many medieval societies were patriarchal. You miss half the talent.

 

For the 'best', I'd have to go for Arad Doman, despite the chaos we saw in it. A council of merchants elects a ruler. Both men and women on the council. Not restricted by nobility. Hardly perfect though. A spot on the council is determined by wealth and power and the ruler depends on the good will of the council. However, it tops most others.  

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Illian is probably the best system of all the various nations. A perfect balance of power between hereditary monarchy and representative government. 

The poll shows that you voted for Seanchan and Children of Light.

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