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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Most powerful nations on the Randland


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Gateway speed; that is vague since the time to go through a Gateway can vary.  The Aiel seem to get more of their people through a Gateway in a shorter amount of time than anyone else.

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to Giantevilhead::

not sure if Gawyn's beliefs were involved in his decision to kill Demandred; but money definitely was not involved.

and there seems to be no treachery in the attempt since Gawyn was not a friend/follower/ally/etc of Demandred; and Demandred never seemed to do any past favors for Gawyn.

 

Gawyn's attempt was secretive and sudden. Treacherous also means deceptive and sneaky. His attempt to kill Demandred fits the definition of "assassinate" quite well.

 

Also, especially means "primarily" or "mainly." Saying that assassins kill especially for monetary or fanatical reasons does not exclude other motivations.

 

Regardless, it's a matter of semantics. What is important are the specific tactics involved. While Aiel are willing to lay ambushes and use stealth, they do not employ assassins like the Seanchan. If you want to parse words, then I'll specify by saying that the Aiel do not employ individuals who are trained to eliminate specific high value enemy targets, like leaders, through either infiltration and secretive and sudden attacks at unexpected places and times, regardless of whether they're on the battlefield or in their homes.

Edited by Giantevilhead
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Gawyn was motivated by the thought he needed to do something grand and wasn't content simply guarding Egwene.  Same reason he was angry at RAnd, he was a prince so felt he should be doing heroic stuff.  In the end his motivation was simple selfishness.

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Gateway speed; that is vague since the time to go through a Gateway can vary.  The Aiel seem to get more of their people through a Gateway in a shorter amount of time than anyone else.

 

I would argue that the Seanchan with their incredible orderliness and discpline would quickly militarize gateway travel and come up with even more efficiencies than the Aiel.  The Aiel are great at coming up with on the spot solutions and executing them, but nobody beats the Seanchan for their level of discipline and planning.  We saw how Basheres cavalry trained and executed, I would imagine the Seanchan would do much the same thing with even more enterprising and creative results.

Edited by mbuehner
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Seanchan are more disciplined but we see that this discipline can also be a bad thing.  They assume a war will be fought a certain way and we saw in Illian,against Mat, and against Itralude that if you don't fight conventional on them they are vulnerable.  All their victorie were against disorganized nations who were not prepared to fight someone who used the power in battle.  But when Ashaman and hit and run tactics were used they had  a hard time adapting.  Then they had to resort to sheer numbers against Intralude.

Edited by Sabio
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Seanchan are more disciplined but we see that this discipline can also be a bad thing.  They assume a war will be fought a certain way and we saw in Illian,against Mat, and against Itralude that if you don't fight conventional on them they are vulnerable.  All their victorie were against disorganized nations who were not prepared to fight someone who used the power in battle.  But when Ashaman and hit and run tactics were used they had  a hard time adapting.  Then they had to resort to sheer numbers against Intralude.

The Ashaman attack that resulted in Rand using Callandor would have ended with Rand losing if they hadn't retreated. They succeeded in delaying the Seanchan, not defeating them.

 

Again with Ituralde he was rescued by Rand, if he hadn't been the Seanchan would have wiped him out. He did better than most, given the relative size of the armies, but he would have lost.

 

Mat's again a tricky situation. He wasn't fighting to defeat them but to get past them, so in that sense he won. If they were fighting a drawn out battle to 'defeat' the Seanchan the result's up in the air. Mat 'may' have won given his advantages with the crossbows, bit the Band would have been in real trouble if they'd run into the Channelers that the Seanchan had.

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Again with Inturalde, they had to resort to overwhelming numbers in order to defeat them, two huge armies with him in the middle.  Rand driving them back was good enough, since they stopped trying to go for illian.  The Seanchan viewed it as a defeat.  Yes Rand wanted to wipe them out but had he been totally sane he would of known that wasn't an option since he didn't bring nearly enough.  But the Seanchan clearly also weren't prepared for the type of fight Rand brought to them.  All he needed was to send them back and secure illian's border.  It might be viewed as a draw, but he did send the Seanchan packing.   

 

Mat had the advantage of picking and choosing wherever he wanted to fight, had he wanted to he could of kept running the Seanchan ragged.  The Seanchan I think like most armies wasn't equipped for the type of war Mat introduced, hitting back line areas, hit and run, attacking supply areas.  Mat knew what the enemy would do, sure he had his memories.  But Since Seanchan were so disciplined, they did things by the book when it came to tactics so Mat could easily guess what they were going to do.  With Mat again their tatctic was to move a giant army where they thought he was going to be and then he slipped by.  Just to me in the book most of their responses was send a huge army.

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Seanchan are more disciplined but we see that this discipline can also be a bad thing. They assume a war will be fought a certain way and we saw in Illian,against Mat, and against Itralude that if you don't fight conventional on them they are vulnerable. All their victorie were against disorganized nations who were not prepared to fight someone who used the power in battle. But when Ashaman and hit and run tactics were used they had a hard time adapting. Then they had to resort to sheer numbers against Intralude.

The Ashaman attack that resulted in Rand using Callandor would have ended with Rand losing if they hadn't retreated. They succeeded in delaying the Seanchan, not defeating
The Damona Campaign? Rand had essentially won, it wasn't until he overreached towards the end and went all super ego ignoring Bashere's tactics that the Seanchan rallied. Edited by Suttree
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Seanchan are more disciplined but we see that this discipline can also be a bad thing. They assume a war will be fought a certain way and we saw in Illian,against Mat, and against Itralude that if you don't fight conventional on them they are vulnerable. All their victorie were against disorganized nations who were not prepared to fight someone who used the power in battle. But when Ashaman and hit and run tactics were used they had a hard time adapting. Then they had to resort to sheer numbers against Intralude.

The Ashaman attack that resulted in Rand using Callandor would have ended with Rand losing if they hadn't retreated. They succeeded in delaying the Seanchan, not defeating
The Damona Campaign? Rand had essentially won, it wasn't until he overreached towards the end and went all super ego ignoring Bashere's tactics that the Seanchan rallied.

 

 

The One Power wild zone created by Elayne's exploding Gateway back in PoD had more to do with the outcome than anything else though, wouldn't you agree?

 

Without the great advantage the Ashaman brought to the battle, it was simply a case of being outnumbered.

Edited by Finnssss
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I also remember the legion of the dragon being a surprise to them, if I remember a Seanchan pov thinking the crossbow men would be an easy target but was surprised  how tough they were.  Also Rand unknowingly had DF' in his ashaman and Weiramon, so they possibly could of sabatoged some of  Rand's tactics, like when seanchan suddenly burst out near him.  The wild magic zone I consider a draw since it hampered both sides the same. 

 

Yeah ego rand wasn't simply happy with chasing them off, ego Rand wanted to destroy them all and nearly cost himself the fight.

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The Seanchan were able to conquer everyone in the bad future Aviendha saw. I don't see how they could possibly do that without extremely ingenious strategies since the Asha'man would allow the Aiel and the other nations to create full circles of 72 while damane can't even link. A few full circles should be able to crush individual channelers no matter how strong they are and they'll be capable of creating all sorts of weaves that single channelers can't.

Edited by Giantevilhead
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Seanchan are more disciplined but we see that this discipline can also be a bad thing. They assume a war will be fought a certain way and we saw in Illian,against Mat, and against Itralude that if you don't fight conventional on them they are vulnerable. All their victorie were against disorganized nations who were not prepared to fight someone who used the power in battle. But when Ashaman and hit and run tactics were used they had a hard time adapting. Then they had to resort to sheer numbers against Intralude.

The Ashaman attack that resulted in Rand using Callandor would have ended with Rand losing if they hadn't retreated. They succeeded in delaying the Seanchan, not defeating

 

The Damona Campaign? Rand had essentially won, it wasn't until he overreached towards the end and went all super ego ignoring Bashere's tactics that the Seanchan rallied.

 

You may be right. I know that the Seanchan were withdrawing, and Bashere wanted to leave it at that. But I thought I remembered Rand wanting to wipe them out from before the battle (implication being that in the end they didn't have the resources or ability to do so, but I guess even then a draw would be a more accurate term), instead of near the end of the battle, however I can't find it now, so maybe misremembered the initial intentions of the battle.

 

I also remember Rand telling Min(?) afterwards that he doesn't know how to defeat the Seanchan due to their ability to adopt new tactics...

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Avi future if I remember right was the seanchan taking everyone on at once, I thought there was something about them taken one at a time sort of thing not fighting everyone at once.  Sort of like aiel was fighting them and Andor would try to help type of thing.

 

Think he did saying something like that which I don't fully understand.  Rand could of defeated had he wanted to put the total effort in, gateways gave him a huge advantage not to mention Asha'man channeling not able to be detected by the Damane.  But think he would of weakened his army too much for them to be any use in the last battle.  The old way of mass cavalry charges was obsolete as we saw with the White cloaks.  Rand hope would of been gateways poor troops into different area and use mat tactics.  He could lead them into ambushed by making sure their raken see his troops then gateway them out of there before the seanchan arrived. 

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In Aviendha's future, the Seanchan didn't fight everyone at the same time but they did fight both the Black Tower and the White Tower at the same time. So they would have had to deal with full circles. So unless that was actually a very unlikely future, the Seanchan must be really good at coming up with new strategies and technology if they can beat full circles.

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Well one advantage they did have is when they captured someone they could make the newly captured Aes Sedai to tell them new weaves.  They must of found a way to capture male channelers.  Especially if they capture someone not under the three oaths.  So a captured kin could teach them a lot.

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damane can't link?  they not knowing how to link seems more accurate.

the adam forms something similar to linking.

and it seems to me that the adam does not prevent further linking as long as the circle is less than or equal to the maximum (with adam).

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The a'dam forces a circle of 2 that is complete and doesn't seem to be extended. It may be possible to alter the design of the a'dam to extend the 'circle' but as it currently is it can't be done.

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A big part of the Seanchan long term success is that winning or losing battles isnt all that relevant to them. They win wars, a lot like Rome. You might beat them today, but they will be back tomorrow and the next day and every day until they get what they want. 

 

The Aiel are modeled off fierce indian tribes. The love to battle, they love to win. Perhaps too much. They arent willing to do anything necessary to win the ultimate war like the Seanchan are. The Aiel arent giving up their spears to pick up firearms. The Seanchan would do it in a heartbeat if it fit their larger plans.

Edited by mbuehner
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The Aiel are modeled off fierce indian tribes. The love to battle, they love to win. Perhaps too much. They arent willing to do anything necessary to win the ultimate war like the Seanchan are. The Aiel arent giving up their spears to pick up firearms. The Seanchan would do it in a heartbeat if it fit their larger plans.

 

They won't even pick up a sword for starters :tongue: 

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The Roman Empire became conquered; the eastern half by the Turks.  western half, not sure.

If the Seanchan are equivalent to the Roman Empire, then either a current nation or a future one could be equivalent to the Turks.

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The Roman Empire became conquered; the eastern half by the Turks.  western half, not sure.

If the Seanchan are equivalent to the Roman Empire, then either a current nation or a future one could be equivalent to the Turks.

@mb that's correct but only after the Romans let go of their own virtues and discipline and republican systems. If the Seanchan stuck to their current focus of learning from the tactics of enemies and extreme strategic skills and blind dedication/stark fear to/of the Crystal Throne, they would remain powerful and the strongest force to contend with in Randland in purely military terms. 

 

in terms of Civilian life- Andor takes the cake. People from Caemlyn are known to be outspoken and Elayne repeatedly mentions how unwilling the people would be to accept a weak or unjust ruler. Two Rivers doesn't even know it's a part of Andor, the queen is fully aware of the situation, yet she lets them have their own way as long as they don't openly rebel. Plus they seem to be the main rallying force during SG from the side of the Light... (unless I'm forgetting some major plotlines :p )

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What also crushed the Romans was not stop civil wars and uprisings, they lost a lot of manpower simply fighting each other.  Which sounds a lot like Seanchan, Seanchan pov's make it sound like the empire is always experiencing rebellions or uprisings.  But they are also stuck in the past, a few times it was explained how the knowledge of leash holders being able to channel could destroy the empire sine the power of the empire is built on the use of damane.  Without leash holder there is no way to control their most powerful weapons.  Both sides will nee to rethink how they wage war, because the tactic of mass calvary charges are now obsolete.  The varied use of gateways and dragons, etc.. . Both sides must rethink how they will fight a war.  I do think Randland has one big advantage now with the founding of the schools for knowledge.  Randland will experience a big surge in technology growth.

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The Seanchan won't do anything to win. They still have very strong taboos against channelers. They're unlikely to give up leashing channelers despite the advantages it could provide. Even though they can probably make male a'dams, they still hate and fear male channelers. They may eventually make those compromises but it'll take a very long time.

 

The Seanchan are in a very strong position right after the Last Battle but the other nations have more potential to become much stronger as time passes due to the freedom they give to their channelers. All the greatest achievements during the AoL were created with male and female channelers working together and all the new weaves created in the books were by independent channelers. The Asha'mon and Aes Sedai will begin creating more and more new things while the Seanchan will likely fall behind. The Aiel will probably start embracing male channelers too since they don't have to go on suicide missions to the blight anymore.

 

Assuming that Aviendha's vision is a likely future then the Seanchan probably used some really fancy strategy to win.

Edited by Giantevilhead
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Rhurac had mentioned the Aiel were simply going to attack the Seanchan right after the last battle to free the wise ones, but now that they are part of the Dragon's Peace they will try to negotiate.  I think the reason the Seanchan beat everyone later was the nations didn't unite and fight the Seanchan.  Believe in Avi' vision there was mention of Andor joining the war and seanchan declaring war on the black and white tower.  So again a lot of nations who probably still aren't overly found of people who can channel decided not to go their aid.   So Seanchan started picking the nations off one by one. 

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But considering how powerful full circles are, it would still have to be incredibly hard for the Seanchan to beat the Black and White Tower together. Just look at what full circles were able to do in the Last Battle. The Black and White Tower together could create dozens of full circles. They'll be impossible for the Seanchan to shield, they could repel any attack. Heck, they could probably destroy the Seanchan lands with earthquakes or sink them into the ocean.

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