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H1ammer24

Am I missing the irony

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So am I reading to much into it or not catching the irony, but it seems the main female characters seem to hate the traits in the male characters, and constantly berating them, yet turn around and do those traits. All the secrets and half truths and manipulations. I am sure half the deaths and arguments could have been avoided if people would just trust old friends. My thoughts, just had to put it out in the universe.

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Yes, it is intentionally ironic. It is not only the female characters - but much more prevalent in them. Mat is also another example of this with Olver, berating his men for teaching him wrong - when Mat himself is as bad an influence. 

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Yes, it is intentionally ironic. It is not only the female characters - but much more prevalent in them. Mat is also another example of this with Olver, berating his men for teaching him wrong - when Mat himself is as bad an influence. 

Matt's probably the worst influence, but it's like a father berating a stranger for cursing in front of their kid in between drags on his cigarette.

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Ok as long as I'm not the only one. It drives me thru the roof. I am not a fan of secrets and when close friends (in the book) keep secrets just to spite the other ones or the idea of manipulation. So far that's why I like Min (so far only at book 6), she is strong but doesn't like the bs of secrets and minipulations.

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Yes, it is intentionally ironic. It is not only the female characters - but much more prevalent in them. Mat is also another example of this with Olver, berating his men for teaching him wrong - when Mat himself is as bad an influence. 

Matt's probably the worst influence, but it's like a father berating a stranger for cursing in front of their kid in between drags on his cigarette.

 

Also Mat's "winning smile" is the leer that olver always used on the women Mat would always remark on.

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All the characters think they are smarter than they really are. One of the major themes that I at least picked up on (Whether intentional or not by RJ is another matter) is that half of humanities problem is those petty squabbles and bickering.

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All the characters think they are smarter than they really are. One of the major themes that I at least picked up on (Whether intentional or not by RJ is another matter) is that half of humanities problem is those petty squabbles and bickering.

Except Egwene. Annoyingly I really do think she IS meant to be as smart as she thinks she is. As much as I wish she weren't.

 

In fact the irony is why I can stand how a lot of characters act. But then with Egwene there feels like a distinct lack of irony with her. It's weird. Or maybe it's just me.

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I wouldn't call it irony.  I'd say it is an intentional device Jordan uses to show the characters development. 

 

Jordan, IMO, creates the characters such that, when less mature, they lie to themselves/don't see their true selves/have zero intellectual integrity.

 

Then, slowly, many of the characters gain some degree of "self-honesty".

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I wouldn't call it irony.  I'd say it is an intentional device Jordan uses to show the characters development. 

 

Jordan, IMO, creates the characters such that, when less mature, they lie to themselves/don't see their true selves/have zero intellectual integrity.

 

Then, slowly, many of the characters gain some degree of "self-honesty".

I think following the definitions of irony it is technically irony that Jordon is employing. Since the characters claim to themselves one thing while demonstrating the exact opposite a lot of the time. With the reader clearly in the know about the fact that the characters are full of crap.

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I think following the definitions of irony it is technically irony that Jordon is employing. Since the characters claim to themselves one thing while demonstrating the exact opposite a lot of the time. With the reader clearly in the know about the fact that the characters are full of crap.

 

 

Literally irony?  Yes, I see your point.  I think I was trying to express the reason behind the irony.

 

Maybe I should rephrase that Jordan uses the magnitude of the irony as a measure of character maturity, and that the change in the magnitude of the irony (self-lying, etc) represents changing maturity throughout the series.

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Ok well I might not be far enough into the series but no one is moving away from this lack of intellectual integrity. However it is so aggravating. I guess that is the problem with knowing what all sides are truly thinking, but in have never seen it done so well as in this series.

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Let's just say that it is a character flaw for nearly everyone in the book.  This leads to no one wanting to work together.  Once they overcome the character flaw, they can accomplish major things.

 

This exists between the sexes, between social classes, between nations, etc.  Across the board.

 

Looking back, I think Birigitte is the only one without that flaw, but then again she is operating with many lives worth of experience.

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a few other characters besides Birgitte also have additional memories.  Rand, Mat.

 

And characters that have a few on-screen scenes seem to not complain about other characters; besides Birgitte.

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