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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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In wheel of time we know souls are reborn, so there no connection spiritually between families. For example a person could be born a montague, but be reborn a capulate. So the only bonds of family is the fact, that they live together and share DNA, something Rand will not have with any of his offsprings. Unless souls could some how be related?

The reasons i bring this up is in another thread it was sugested that a person needed a channelers soul, but also the right DNA to channel. I dont know if that is right or wrong, in light of the way we know people are reborn in randland i would of thought blood mattered very little, but we also know channeler begets channeler.

So anyway would like to know some of your thoughts on this and if there are any quotes by the authors on this subject.

And more specifically can Rand the way he is now be considered the father of Elanyne or Aviendha' kids?

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There was a theory about your topic. They are basically mutants (you know there was/will be a big nuclear war), so they can channel into electricity (the OP).

 

And more specifically can Rand the way he is now be considered the father of Elanyne or Aviendha' kids?

 

I don't understand your question. Please, elaborate.

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He probably meant that Rand now lives in Moridin's body and does not have the ability to channel.

That likely means that any of his new children (not the ones Elayne is already carrying) would now be conceived from Moridin's dna and technically be Moridin's children, at least genetically speaking.

Also given his lack of the ability to channel in his current body, this means that his future children might not inherit channeling ability because of that, despite the fact that both Rand and Moridin have been two of the most powerful channelers in this era.

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As Rand in Moridin' body will share no blood/DNA with Elanyne or Avi' kids and is unlikely to be around in a roll model sense, could he in his present body claim to be anything to the kids.

 

 

for the soul/genetic question it apears, a channeler does need the combination of soul and DNA. It was cleared up by a RJ quote in another thread.

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He probably meant that Rand now lives in Moridin's body and does not have the ability to channel.

That likely means that any of his new children (not the ones Elayne is already carrying) would now be conceived from Moridin's dna and technically be Moridin's children, at least genetically speaking.

Also given his lack of the ability to channel in his current body, this means that his future children might not inherit channeling ability because of that, despite the fact that both Rand and Moridin have been two of the most powerful channelers in this era.

i dont think passing on the channeler gene would be a problem, as i think moridin was burnt out, thus him still having the gene to pass on just nott the ability himself

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As Rand in Moridin' body will share no blood/DNA with Elanyne or Avi' kids and is unlikely to be around in a roll model sense, could he in his present body claim to be anything to the kids.

 

 

for the soul/genetic question it apears, a channeler does need the combination of soul and DNA. It was cleared up by a RJ quote in another thread.

I know RJ did mention about channeling being a combination of the soul and DNA - but I never quite find the DNA explanation quite satisfactory.

 

Transmigration seems to allow a new body retain the soul's former strength - it seems to suggest that strength is from the soul. Otherwise the the transmigrated people would have new strength (And it would seem implausible that the DO actually found bodies with identical strength).

 

In Aran'gar case, I can't see how DNA would allow a female body to channel saidin. That particular transmigration suggests that channelling has to be completely from the soul. I suppose you can make a case for the DO splicing DNA from a man into a woman to give her body that trait. Thinking about that: That was a perfect opportunity for a scene with Osan'gar creating a pretty frankenstein  that can use saidin.

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interesting about the body being able to channel, saidin, but being that of a woman. So if a body was inhabbited by two souls, like slayer, but with the souls of a male and female channeler, assuming the body had the right genetics it could in theory channel both the male and female halves of the power.

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I think Transmigration is in an entirely different field. It's a good question, but the DO is ultimately a paradox against the pattern. He makes things possible that should not logically be possible. 

 

I believe RJ was talking about normal birth in terms of genetics, and that the transmigration of the Forsaken is something that could be considered abnormal to say the least, lending to the belief that it doesn't follow traditional rules of the Pattern. 

 

I can't explain HOW this is achieved, but the DO's powers can concieveably change the dynamics of the whole thing. 

It's also worth noting that either RJ or Brandon said once that people can't just be transmigrated into any old body, there are specific (they didn't elaborate) criteria that must be met. 

 

Edit: It is also possible that the answer is much more simplistic. It may be that the soul (which cannot change gender) determines the use of Saidar or Saidin, and the genetic compontent simply determines if the 'conduit' connecting the person to the OP is available. So all the DO would need is a body with an open 'conduit' via genetics through which Aginor's soul can channel. 

 

Strength, if I recall, can change from incarnation to incarnation (that's normal incarnation mind you). Rand/LTT were exceptional, probably because of the Pattern's need. I don't believe that either author ever explained how strength was determined in each incarnation. 

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Edit: It is also possible that the answer is much more simplistic. It may be that the soul (which cannot change gender) determines the use of Saidar or Saidin, and the genetic compontent simply determines if the 'conduit' connecting the person to the OP is available. So all the DO would need is a body with an open 'conduit' via genetics through which Aginor's soul can channel. 

 

 

I like it.

 

Strength, if I recall, can change from incarnation to incarnation (that's normal incarnation mind you). Rand/LTT were exceptional, probably because of the Pattern's need. I don't believe that either author ever explained how strength was determined in each incarnation. 

 

I still don't find this satisfactory. I can accept that from incarnation to incarnation they may / may not be able to channel if we assume the DNA opens/close the conduit to the OP. But it still seems that strength is from the soul based on transmigration and the Dragon. 

 

I can understand where you are coming from regarding the Dragon having the same strength in incarnations he can channel. Taking Birgitte as an example, in almost or perhaps all incarnations, she is an amazing archer but that is her "hero" story. I'm not sure if the Dragon's story requires him to be the most powerful male channeller in every incarnation he turns up as the Dragon. Granted we know very little about AoL, the Dragon merely only needed to be as strong as required to get the seals on. Strength was irrelevant in getting to his position in his 2nd. In the 3rd age, his strength certainly helped keep forsaken from assassinating him - but he also had callandor and the fat man very early as a deterrent.

 

As a side, I find characters like Sorilea, Alise, (to a lesser extent) Androl and (even lesser extent) Egwene interesting. They aren't the most powerful in their respective groups (certainly Egwene is pretty high up in an organisation that over-values strength), but they lead it due to other factors.

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Honestly, I don't really know, that's just a guess. Rand was so connected to LTT in this Age, it seems fitting they had the same strength. Of course, there's more than likely a motive from a literary perspective simply wanting the Dragon to be the most powerful channeller. 

 

It's possible that in non-Dragon incarnations Rand's soul has less power. There is also the theory that Rand is MORE powerful than Lews Therin by the end of the series, but there isn't much to go on really. 

 

Anyway, this was all I could find in terms of strength from the authors: 

 

INTERVIEW: Dec 5th, 2009  
 
 
BRANDON SANDERSON
Ability to channel/souls. I think this has all been reported, but he stated definitively that the ability to channel is tied to soul. He stated definitively that the spark was not tied to the soul but could be affected by a specific body (i.e., just because you had the spark in one life, you could be reborn and just have the ability to learn.) He stated with 85% probability that strength in the Power was not tied to soul, meaning that if you were an uber channeler in one body, you could be weak in the Power in your next body.

 

Beyond that, we don't really have much, and even then it's dubious as a 'probability'. 

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Honestly, I don't really know, that's just a guess. Rand was so connected to LTT in this Age, it seems fitting they had the same strength. Of course, there's more than likely a motive from a literary perspective simply wanting the Dragon to be the most powerful channeller.

 

It's possible that in non-Dragon incarnations Rand's soul has less power. There is also the theory that Rand is MORE powerful than Lews Therin by the end of the series, but there isn't much to go on really.

 

Anyway, this was all I could find in terms of strength from the authors:

INTERVIEW: Dec 5th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - kavorka (Paraphrased)

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ability to channel/souls. I think this has all been reported, but he stated definitively that the ability to channel is tied to soul. He stated definitively that the spark was not tied to the soul but could be affected by a specific body (i.e., just because you had the spark in one life, you could be reborn and just have the ability to learn.) He stated with 85% probability that strength in the Power was not tied to soul, meaning that if you were an uber channeler in one body, you could be weak in the Power in your next body.

Beyond that, we don't really have much, and even then it's dubious as a 'probability'.

 

bit of a suprise, always thought power levels would be the same, but oviously not.

Would think Rand would always be powerful though given the nature of the man, he is a born leader and would rise in what ever place he was put in.

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In wheel of time we know souls are reborn, so there no connection spiritually between families. For example a person could be born a montague, but be reborn a capulate. So the only bonds of family is the fact, that they live together and share DNA, something Rand will not have with any of his offsprings. Unless souls could some how be related?

The reasons i bring this up is in another thread it was sugested that a person needed a channelers soul, but also the right DNA to channel. I dont know if that is right or wrong, in light of the way we know people are reborn in randland i would of thought blood mattered very little, but we also know channeler begets channeler.

So anyway would like to know some of your thoughts on this and if there are any quotes by the authors on this subject.

And more specifically can Rand the way he is now be considered the father of Elanyne or Aviendha' kids?

As to the kids, DNA won't match but then again he isn't the same DNA as LTT.  I know people not blood related that are awesome fathers, so it won't matter, only Rand doesn't seem to want any part as he's going traveling.  LTT killed his entire extended family, no survivors of his bloodline were left.  So how can he be reborn?  The Dragon Soul is reborn into a random body.  But to call the body random...it'll be someone born on Dragonmount or whatever the future mountain is called, to an heir of Caemlyn's throne or whatever that nation will come to be called, and will be heralded in prophecy, though the wording will likely be different.  The names and faces change, but the story never does unless in small ways which the weaving of the wheel will allow each person so long as it fits the wheel's weaving.  And when enough small changes mount up the slate gets erased in the new Breaking!  

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As to his kids, they won't need to embrace the source, they will be permanently connected to it if Avi's visions will still hold since their names will be changed from the vision and the future was changed by the Aiel being included in the Dragon's Peace.  Something like that I'd think will still happen. 

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i know blood matters little, to someone who has brought a child up as their own. But Rand isnt doing that, he most likely will have no part in any of his kids upbringing and given that they no longer share DNA, could he think about them as his children or if they knew the truth would they see him as a father especially as they would most likely already have father figures while growing up, indeed one of whom could be Rands own dad.

I know its not a theory or matters much but its just something that popped into my head from time to time.

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About Lews Therin killing his entire family; that info came from Ishamael.  There could be some chance that Ishamael was mistaken or that Ishamael was lying.  One descendant (or more) of Lews Therin might have somehow escaped.

 

About whether Rand would see Elayne's & Aviendha's children as his; that I think would be likely since the conceptions happened when Rand had his original body.

Whether the children would see Rand as their father; that I think would depend partly on whether Rand spends any time with them during their childhood.  Also on what their respective mother tells them.

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I agree, since Rand still views himself as Rand its would seem odd if he thought of the kids as someone elses.  I can't see him spending much time with the kids at the beginning because for a few reasons, one Elayne and Avi are going to be real busy with other things and if Rand shows intrest in Avi and Elayne it might raise a few eyebrows.  Not to mention he might run into one of the few people who might recognize Mordins body.  Its best to let a little time go by before even going near them.  Its not really about what DNA he has or had, its more of he still views himself as Rand so more than likely he would view the kids as his.

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Remember Rand is walking around in the body of a mass murderer, so it's probably best that he's not around the kids anyways. After all if he shows up and starts hanging around Elayne people will likely begin believing that he is compelling her.

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Only a few people still living have any idea who Moridin was or what he looked like.  But seeing how one of those is Nyn yeah might be best if he avoids being seen with Elayne for awhile.  Seeing how Rand can't channel anymore no more mask of mirrors.

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Yeah, you can count on your hands the number of people who would actually recognize Moridin for one of the Forsaken. 

 

Besides, I doubt that the girls would keep it a secret from Nynaeve for long. Only until after the funeral. 

 

When they find Moridin's body gone, Nynaeve and co. would likely try to start up a hunt. However, I would think the girls would step in then and tell her of the situation. 

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could someone post a link to the channelers being mutants theory, I searched but couldn't find it?

 

As far as I remember it was on wotmania or some geocities pages. It was so long ago! (But we learned the lesson years ago: do you like that theory? Save it! Do you like this post? Save it! Do you like this thread? Save it! Espicially when the mods are so fast to nuke any thread...)

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I agree, since Rand still views himself as Rand its would seem odd if he thought of the kids as someone elses.  I can't see him spending much time with the kids at the beginning because for a few reasons, one Elayne and Avi are going to be real busy with other things and if Rand shows intrest in Avi and Elayne it might raise a few eyebrows.  Not to mention he might run into one of the few people who might recognize Mordins body.  Its best to let a little time go by before even going near them.  Its not really about what DNA he has or had, its more of he still views himself as Rand so more than likely he would view the kids as his.

My guess was (and still is) that his 3 lovers would go to him.  Probably during trips to various regions of Elayne's kingdom.

About Moridin's body; at least Nynaeve and Cadsuane and Rand's 3 lovers seem to suspect the body swap.  And the situation would probably have been explained by the time of the first birth of the children.

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