Berelain's lie

[ga2014 - Member]

Eyeing him thoughtfully, she ran a fingertip along her lower lip. “Despite what you may have heard, you will be only the third man to share my bed.” Her eyes were… smoky… yet she might have been saying he was the third man she had spoken to that day. Her scent… The only thing that came to mind was a wolf eyeing a deer caught in brambles. “The other two were politics. You will be pleasure. In more ways than one,” she finished with a surprising touch of bite.

 

 

I like B. (I don't know why, her role is so small, what a pity,  Perrin is just a plaything to her but I think she's in love with Rand, see LoC) but this "confession" always bothered me.

 

The other two were politics.

 

We know that the very concept of prostitution is totally unknown in Randland (or not?), so I really don't understand this sentence. Or did she just say, "Don't worry, I'm not a virgin"? (Riding - No, you cannot. Your virginity is lost the first time that you have sexual intercourse for both sexes, and for females, not when the hymen is broken.)

[David Selig - Member]

I don't see the problem. Just because there's no prostitution doesn't mean there aren't cases where men or women sex to achieve their political goals.

[mb - Member]

There can be a difference between sexual intercourse and sharing a bed.

 

Aviendha told Egwene that she slept next to men during raids.  Fires of Heaven chapter 5; near the end of the chapter.

[WWWwombat - Member]

I wouldn't say the concept of prostitution is unknown so much as RJ just doesn't feel like writing about it.  And it's quite common in world history to use sex for political ends.

[ga2014 - Member]

There can be a difference between sexual intercourse and sharing a bed.

 

Aviendha told Egwene that she slept next to men during raids.  Fires of Heaven chapter 5; near the end of the chapter.

 

Who was on top?

 

I think that's very scary. Plus the sweat tents! Was Avi totally naked among many men? (She was then what, 16-17 years old?) I remember someone seeing Sevanna's breasts (from Sevanna's pov) and the man was almost hypnotized!

 

Scary, very scary situations.

Edited March 26, 2014 by ga2014

[ga2014 - Member]

I wouldn't say the concept of prostitution is unknown so much as RJ just doesn't feel like writing about it.  And it's quite common in world history to use sex for political ends.

 

His world is gender-balanced, so why do they need prostitution?

[Suttree - Member]

 

Interview: Jun 16th, 1995

East of the Sun Con - Karl-Johan Norén (Paraphrased)

  Robert Jordan

First, the question of Hake's inn in The Eye of the World is answered: it is not a whorehouse, at least not more than any other inn. :-) Due to the increase in women's power, the very concept of prostitution is unknown; but women have much greater freedom in choosing their partners, both casual and permanent. He specifically mentioned Mat's little escapades with various maids and serving-girls.

 

[Nick Trano - Member]

Jordan believes that in a world where women have power the very concept of prostitution would be unknown? That must mean male prostitutes have never existed. :P

Edited March 26, 2014 by Tranovious

[mb - Member]

 

There can be a difference between sexual intercourse and sharing a bed.

 

Aviendha told Egwene that she slept next to men during raids.  Fires of Heaven chapter 5; near the end of the chapter.

Who was on top?

 

I think that's very scary. Plus the sweat tents! Was Avi totally naked among many men? (She was then what, 16-17 years old?) I remember someone seeing Sevanna's breasts (from Sevanna's pov) and the man was almost hypnotized!

 

Scary, very scary situations.

In the Aiel culture, it is the women who propose marriage; Aviendha was "wed to the spear".

I take Aiel wear cadinsor when they sleep.

 

premarital sex seems rare among characters.

for sure these::

-Elayne & Rand.  Winter's Heart

-Aviendha & Rand.  Memory of Light

possibly these::

-Min & Rand

-Logain & Gabrelle

other couples seem doubtful to me.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill - Donor]

what does having sex for political or any other reason have to do with prostitution?

 

and what does horseback riding have to do with anything?

 

and why are any of those situations scary?

 

I'm completely missing any points there.

[WWWwombat - Member]

what does having sex for political or any other reason have to do with prostitution?

 

and what does horseback riding have to do with anything?

 

and why are any of those situations scary?

 

I'm completely missing any points there.

 

 

Because prostitution is the formalization of using sex for gain so it's tangentially related at best.  Also, I think that quote Suttree provided shows a rather naive viewpoint by RJ.  I'm surprised tbh.  Prostitution is obviously very open to being used to exploit women, so a more gender-equal society would no doubt have very different dynamics regarding it, but to say that prostitution would be unknown in any human society that had developed currency seems rather silly to me.

 

Horseback riding can break the hymen.  Not really related.

 

I have no idea why sweat tents or raids would be scary.  Anyone who tried doing something like that to Aviendha would regret it for the rest of his natural life.

[NeverTame - Member]

 

premarital sex seems rare among characters.

for sure these::

-Elayne & Rand.  Winter's Heart

-Aviendha & Rand.  Memory of Light

possibly these::

-Min & Rand

-Logain & Gabrelle

other couples seem doubtful to me.

 

 

 

Umm, nothing "possibly" about Rand & Min or Logain & Gabrelle. They were having about as explicit sex as it gets in WoT.

Edited March 27, 2014 by NeverTame

[Suttree - Member]

premarital sex seems rare among characters.

 

Totally...just look at Mat.

[WWWwombat - Member]

Let's not forget Lan, Morgase, Mat, a good deal of Far Dareis Mai, Myrelle, most of the nobility of Ebou Dar, etc.

[WWWwombat - Member]

Thom.  Breane Taborwin.  The list goes on.

[threadnecromancer - Member]

I think he backpedaled on the whole 'no prostitution' thing, New Spring had that inn where they tried to drug Moraine to rape her and probably keep her as a sex slave and Moraine did not seem all that fazed by the concept that such places existed in seamier locales.  

[Magicana - Member]

She's an incredibly beautiful woman, it should come as no surprise that she used it to her advantage (Possibly with Tairen High-Lords?)

[ga2014 - Member]

I think he backpedaled on the whole 'no prostitution' thing, New Spring had that inn where they tried to drug Moraine to rape her and probably keep her as a sex slave and Moraine did not seem all that fazed by the concept that such places existed in seamier locales.  

 

I don't remember that part at all... Maybe it's time for another re-read soon!

 

NS came out in 2004, so Jordan "had to write" stronger books, you know, to keep up with the so fashionable "everyone is gray/everyone will be raped" theme.

[ga2014 - Member]

I have no idea why sweat tents or raids would be scary.  Anyone who tried doing something like that to Aviendha would regret it for the rest of his natural life.

 

 

Come on, could you point me a man who has no hard-on when he is sleeping with a beautiful teen? OK, A. was behind a cold blooded warrior and nothing happened. It is just not like lifelike.

 

 

WH:

 

“You think men do not stare at your face in approval?” There was an edge in the Wise One’s voice; strong was the best anyone would ever say of her face. “Do they not look at your breasts in the sweat tent? Admire your hips? You are beautiful, and you now it. Deny it, and deny yourself! You have taken pleasure in men’s looks, and smiled at them. Will you never smile at a man to give your arguments more weight, or touch his arm to distract him from the weakness of your arguments? You will, and you will be no less for it.”

 

 

I think it's very scary.

[NeverTame - Member]

Come on, could you point me a man who has no hard-on when he is sleeping with a beautiful teen? OK, A. was behind a cold blooded warrior and nothing happened. It is just not like lifelike.

 

 

You do realise how much this sounds like the argument that a woman wearing a short dress is "asking for it" because men "can't control themselves"?

 

It's obvious, really very obvious that the Aiel as a culture are a lot more comfortable with their bodies than a lot of western societies (especially America? or maybe they're just the loudest about their discomfort, I don't know). Looking at a thing like huddling for warmth during a raid, or the sweat tents, through the filter of an Americanized world view is not going to give you a very accurate idea of how the situation would actually be perceived by the characters living the situation. So a male Aiel warrior is sleeping with a Maiden of the Spear during a raid and an awkward boner happens. Big deal. The worst I imagine would happen in that situation is that the Maiden cracks a joke about it.

[Nick Trano - Member]

Ga, just from having read the other threads I don't know if logic will get through to you but let's try this out. 

 

This thread began because you were incapable of comprehending that, yes, Berelain used her beauty for political gain. She makes that very clear in every chapter she's in, man! The concept of prostitution would not be nonexistent in a world simply because women are the dominant sex. If you're a rampaging feminist you'd say that men are currently the dominant sex right now, and there are still handsome men who choose to make money having sex with people. You could argue that that's totally different, but do you honestly think that no woman would realize that she can make more money having sex than washing rags in the Rahad? Prostitution is not a solely exploitative business. You may be in college right now, and you may be being exposed to many new and exciting ideas about gender, race, and economics, but just because that totally cool professor likes to rant about them it doesn't mean they're true. 

 

Besides, having sex for your own gain isn't necessarily prostitution; look at trophy wives.

 

You went on to say it's terrifying that, in the society where everybody is chill about nudity, one of the most badass warriors there (because remember, maidens are just as if not more deadly than regular algai'd'siswai), slept next to a warrior of roughly equal badassery. Because she could have been raped, since he was a man and she's pretty.

 

She could have cut his dick off. She's a maiden of the spear, dude!

[Mrs. Cindy Gill - Donor]

 

Come on, could you point me a man who has no hard-on when he is sleeping with a beautiful teen? OK, A. was behind a cold blooded warrior and nothing happened. It is just not like lifelike.

 

 

You do realise how much this sounds like the argument that a woman wearing a short dress is "asking for it" because men "can't control themselves"?

 

It's obvious, really very obvious that the Aiel as a culture are a lot more comfortable with their bodies than a lot of western societies (especially America? or maybe they're just the loudest about their discomfort, I don't know). Looking at a thing like huddling for warmth during a raid, or the sweat tents, through the filter of an Americanized world view is not going to give you a very accurate idea of how the situation would actually be perceived by the characters living the situation. So a male Aiel warrior is sleeping with a Maiden of the Spear during a raid and an awkward boner happens. Big deal. The worst I imagine would happen in that situation is that the Maiden cracks a joke about it.

this one isn't Americas fault. it's a very unique perspective you're seeing.

[NeverTame - Member]

Like I said, it's entirely possible they're just the loudest about their discomfort. It's also entirely possible (if somewhat sad if that is the case) that I'm just living in some weird bubble here and nobody anywhere shares my perspective.

 

But moving into the context of the Aiel culture, you do see what I mean, I hope?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill - Donor]

um no I'm saying the OP and the views it represents are pretty fringey and have more to do with the individual posting them than with his national origin. pretty sure.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill - Donor]

yes of course what you're saying makes sense and shouldn't need saying but there ya go.