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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Aoife Mac'alar

Gawyn - "Nice Guy"

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But again, I think he was simply using his mom's death as a reason to justify hating Rand. After he learned she was alive he was forced to admit to himself his true reason for hating Rand was jealousy. That a commoner would be the Dragon Reborn and not him.

I think even when he found out Rand didnt kill his mum he still carried on with the hate for about a book later. The fact that it was simple jealousy just reinforces my point on the stupidity of Gawyn in the last three books, it was all just so pointless.

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Gawyn realizing that his hatred was jealousy occurred before he knew of his mom being alive.  Gawyn's jealousy I take to be over something else than Rand being the Dragon Reborn; probably over the authority Rand has gotten.

Right after the conversation, it seems to me that Gawyn decided to not kill Rand.

 

Gawyn learning of his mom being alive; that was when he saw her.

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I think Gawyn's real problem is that he felt wasted. He was conflicted between his desire to protect and be with Egwene, and his desire to truly make a difference in the world by his own actions. That frustration turned into jealousy of Rand being pushed into the very type of role that Gawyn envisioned for himself.

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Well part of Gawyn's decision not to kill Rand came from why kill a man who was already going to die and if he did kill Rand he would hand the world to the shadow.  @Master Ablar is right, Gawyn saw himself as the one who should be leading the forces of light, Gawyn was selfish.  Gawyn's own words were " He's a sheepherder.  What right does he have to cast down thrones , to change the world as he does?"  Then Elayne said " Particularly as you huddled in a village?"  "While he conqured nations, you were being forced to kill friends"  Rand was doing but Gawyn felt he should be doing.  Its the same reason many of the Tairen nobles hated him, here is a commoner suddenly raised above nobles.  Gawyn was selfish, as Elayne pointed out.  His wanting to kill Rand to satisfy his momentary passion and doom the world.  Also shown with his lack of regard for Egwen'e safety,  He put on rings he know might kill him all so he could have the glory he felt he deserved in killing Dem.  He never even thought about the impact on Egwene if he died from Dem or the rings. 

 

 I checked and Elayne told him that Rand didn't kill their mom about 3/4 of the way through TOM and that's when Gawyn said he was done hating Al'thor and that he cared nothing for him. At the end of TOM is when he saw his mom actually alive. 

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Gawyn's chief problem was that he was a moron. Who but a moron would fall in love with Egwene? Unless of course you regard true love as being treated like a retarded servant. Of course, it probably didn't help that he'd been treated as such by everyone for his entire life despite being a prince. From the very first scene when Rand climbs the wall, he's bullied and bossed by his younger sister -who as far as they know is several decades away from being Queen - to the WT where that sister  and the woman he has inexplicably fallen in love with are constantly telling him to mind his own damned business whenever he expresses any concern for them and absolutely refuse to tell him anything to alleviate his worry. They don't even deigned to tell him soothing lies. When he basically secures Elaida's revolt he's rewarded with disdain and a plot to murder him. After nearly going out of his mind with fear and worry, he rescues his great love and saves her life. Does she sit down with him for fifteen minutes and say "Gawyn, I love you and trust you but I wish you hadn't done that. Let me tell you what I know, what I think, what I plan and what I hope you'll do for me." Instead, she basically tells him that if he really loved her he'd shut up and do as he's told - and if he can't do that, to get the hell out. Which he does, momentarily igniting the hope that at least one man in this world is about to grow a pair. Alas, he soon decides that he must be the totally subservient one or he will never be happy and goes crawling back. His irrational hatred of Rand is just another sign of his idiocy. When a total stranger tells him a rumor that Rand killed his mother he simply won't let it go even after several people - including his loving sister and great love Egwene - tell him it's not true. As badass as he inexplicably is with a sword, he'd be truly dangerous if he had two brain cells to rub together.

Edited by Randlander123

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As BS said when he was asked how Dem could beat him even with Gawyn wearing those rings.  BS replied something like Gawyn wasn't as good as he thought he was that the ring won't make an above average swordsman an elite one (don't remember the full quote).  He was above average but I think BS basically said something like Gawyn defeating Hammer gave him a inflated sense of how good he really was. 

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You know Randlander, I rarely find a man worthy of respect around here. You are one such man. I salute you. 

 

EDIT: Although I don't think Gawyn is so much stupid as experiencing the unfortunate results of his ridiculously retarded upbringing. 

Edited by Tranovious

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Egwene did tell Gawyn that "Egwene the woman" loved him.

trust at that point of time would not have been truthful or honest; since he disobeyed her explicit commands.  She was a ruler; it would be reasonable for rulers to expect to be obeyed.

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Rulers expect to be obeyed in matters of state, yes. Good rulers don't expect even their closest friends to be slaves to their every whim and desire. There's a difference between Stalin and Roosevelt. 

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 Good rulers don't expect even their closest friends to be slaves to their every whim and desire.

 

Indeed. It's why Elaida was such a terrible Amyrlin.

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Gawyn is probably the biggest wasted character in teh series.   After showing a lot of potential in the earlier books, as Randlander123 points out so well, he makes nothing bad decisions for almost the rest of the entire series.   I often wonder if there were originally bigger plans for the character, but his plotlines were removed cause there were just many storylines already.

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Gawyn is probably the biggest wasted character in teh series.   After showing a lot of potential in the earlier books, as Randlander123 points out so well, he makes nothing bad decisions for almost the rest of the entire series.   I often wonder if there were originally bigger plans for the character, but his plotlines were removed cause there were just many storylines already.

 

I tend to agree with you. Honestly, we (and the story) don't need him at all.

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What bugged me about Gawyn, one of the things, is that he was born and bred to be a sidekick then out of nowhere he wants to be a leading man. I have no issue with people wanting to better themselves but the way he went about it just irked me. It's almost like he wanted it given to him rather than going out and earning it. And his petty jealously, and often childish behaviour, made me want to slap him.

Easily one of my least favourite characters.

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Rulers expect to be obeyed in matters of state, yes. Good rulers don't expect even their closest friends to be slaves to their every whim and desire. There's a difference between Stalin and Roosevelt. 

As far as I recall, Egwene seldom gave commands.  And as far as I recall, she included reasons with most commands she gave.

In the context of my previous post, the command was to not rescue her; and one reason she gave was that she could infiltrate from within (or something similar).

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But again, I think he was simply using his mom's death as a reason to justify hating Rand. After he learned she was alive he was forced to admit to himself his true reason for hating Rand was jealousy. That a commoner would be the Dragon Reborn and not him.

I think even when he found out Rand didnt kill his mum he still carried on with the hate for about a book later. The fact that it was simple jealousy just reinforces my point on the stupidity of Gawyn in the last three books, it was all just so pointless.

 

Yah, I never understood this, I thought that it was a little overdone, but having said that, we never really got to see him have a chance to be light-hearted once again as he had done with Min and Siuan/Liana/Logain letting them leave Tar Valon.  By the time that he knows the Aes Sedai kidnapped Rand and that Min was with them he was contemplating freeing Min when the Shaido attack.  We know he will not hurt Rand or help him so he thinks due to his promise to Egwene, but if he is thinking of freeing Min, then just maybe he will free Rand, if only a small chance.

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I think the hating Rand thing was actually rather realistic. It's hard to let something go when you've been holding onto it for so long. Hell, it's the same reason that when people are presented with contradicting evidence of their beliefs they don't immediately drop them. You keep believing what you believe because you're used to it. Eventually Gawyn was hating Rand simply because Gawyn hated Rand - his mother was a thin justification.

 

We all do it, it's just easier to recognize in others. 

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I think people forget though it was about 3/4 of the way through TOM he decided to stop hating Rand and I think he finally decided to listen to people saying Rand didn't kill hi mom.  He finally admitted to himself the real reason he hated Rand.  But it wasn't till the end of TOM he actually saw his mom alive.  In the final book he acted civil to Rand.  So not a lot of time passed from deciding it was pointless to hate Rand to seeing his mom alive. 

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I have a few issues with him hating Rand, but the biggest issue with it is, why didn't he do anything about it?   If he truly believe Rand had murdered him mom and maybe his sister and taken his home country which he has been trained his whole life to protect.  Why didn't he go to Andor and raise an army to try and take it back?   Instead he sits around playing the lackey for Elaida and does nothng.  I know he promises Egwene he wouldn't touch Rand, but there was time for him to leave before they met up to make that promise in the first place.

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I have a few issues with him hating Rand, but the biggest issue with it is, why didn't he do anything about it?   If he truly believe Rand had murdered him mom and maybe his sister and taken his home country which he has been trained his whole life to protect.  Why didn't he go to Andor and raise an army to try and take it back?   Instead he sits around playing the lackey for Elaida and does nothng.  I know he promises Egwene he wouldn't touch Rand, but there was time for him to leave before they met up to make that promise in the first place.

 

I imagine he's probably aware that Rand would rip him to shreds if he ever tried. And any army he could raise would fare no better. Besides he only hears the rumors about Rand when he's already on his way to Cairhien.

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