Clash of Divinity - Advanced Mafia - Day 7 - Reckoning

[TheRagnarok]

Considering the claims made yesterday...I would think we can guarantee that one of Darthe or Dice has been recruited. 

[Darthe]

Tom why am I supposed to present my case to you?  My argument is to a town that is, by and large, missing.  I know something and based on my claim vs rag's this is a simple and straightforward case.  Risk vs reward.  

 

Town rolecop vs town vanilla, which do you risk if they claim differing things?

Negative investigation vs "That's not true!" which do you go for in any situation EVER?

We could even be more vague about this.

PR VS VANILLA?

RESULT + INFO VS _____?

 

And if I am telling the truth and you lynch rag then you gain a mafia kill right there.

If I am telling the truth and you lynch me you lose a PR then lose another townie to NK or recruit and then get a mafia.

 

If I am lying and you lynch rag you lose a vanilla and get a mafia.  <----Still one less than if you lynch me an I am truthful

 

 

This is a 75% probability in my favor.  Simple as that without any arguing or rhetoric or WIFOM or control issues.  This is a nonissue and CANNOT BE ARGUED LOGICALLY

[Darthe]

Considering the claims made yesterday...I would think we can guarantee that one of Darthe or Dice has been recruited. 

 

We can't because you're scum and so can't be trusted.

[Tommyrod]

Darthe, you claim you got your own self as a target when you targeted Rags.

Why does that make him lock scum and not just someone who is bus drivered?

You claim you got "no result" on me.

What do you think that means about me? Does it mean I'm lock scum too, like you think Rags is?

[Darthe]

 

 

Okay, let's examine this.  I know my alignment and my ability as you do.  I received a result on night one that stated "Darthe, town role cop." which strikes me as beyond odd to get from another player in a recruiting game.  I intended to hold off on testing that result because it wasn't strong enough on its own to readily achieve a lynch and because while that strikes me as scummy enough on its own I also wanted to see the day play out some.  However, when you claimed day vig I saw quite a few possibilities for the town to gain a lot of info very quickly and to get verifiable information about Rag either through his death or through your own.  It wouldn't even cost the town a lynch.  That would be more than worth it if we managed to kill one of the Gods.  This both makes perfect sense as a plan and could have cracked the game wide open.  Town has yet to follow through but it will either today or after I flip.  However, having to kill a town PR to confirm that the town PR is telling the truth about a negative investigation they already know they got directly goes against the interests and potential gains of the town because it both removes a town PR and, if I am correct, gives Rag an extra chance to recruit.  That is far too large to allow me to ignore for any reason other than to confirm Dice yesterday by killing the Elder God that was Turin.  

 

My result for tonight was No Info, Sorry.  Something that I responded to.. unpleasantly.  I got my ears nipped a bit tbh, but that is neither here nor there.  How much plainer do I have to be before we lynch the person I got a view on?  It is the safer more logical choice for town to do even in the event that I am lying!  Rag didn't even bother to claim otherwise.  He piddled around for an entire day before messing with it.

 

 

 

I messed up quoting this so re-did it.

 

Let's examine this post,

 

1.  You start out with a false statement, claiming that we know your ability and alignment.

2.  You give yourself an excuse for waiting to out said information.  So it wasn't enough to lynch me over but it was enough to shoot me over?  Yeah, makes sense. 

3.  I like how you stated that town will follow through with it.  Nice psychological strategy. 

4.  The most likely scenario is that you were recruited by Turin N1.  I have been on Turin all game so you made up the claim in the hopes I'd get lynched over him which keeps your Elder God alive.  Well worth it.  However, Dice stepped up and your plan backfired.  Now you are stuck with a claim.  Not to mention a claim that you can backtrack from immediately when I flip town due to the vagueness of the result.  But you can't give an actual result for anyone else N2 because you're full of it so have to claim being blocked. 

 

You backed yourself into a corner with the fakeclaim. 

 

Not a false statement.  Tom stated he knew his abilities, I stated that I knew mine *AS DID HE*.  This was point for point, making that a scummy misrep.

Shooting you still allows for a lynch and in the event that shooting couldn't happen I still intended to provide the information, I simply would have held onto it until later

Town will.  It is logical, not psychological.  The psychological aspect of my play is pointing out every time that someone uses anything other than logic to make points.

That is more likely than you being mafia?  1/12 vs 2/12-5/12.  No matter how this is viewed this is a verifiably untrue statement.

 

 

4. Darthe - Either lying about investigating me or he got messed with N1.  Him getting no result N2 leads me to believe he is lying.

6. WBK Ley 2.0 - Null to town lean. 

7. GF - Claimed Doctor, hasn't done crap.  I could see him being recruited because of this.

8. Hallia - Has had some sketchy comments, but I know she is relatively new so torn on which way this goes.  Could go her way.

9. Dap - Don't remember a lot he has done.

10. Chuckles Tommy - Town lean.

13. Golden - Don't remember a lot he has done.

15 Dice - Investigator who didn't get his results in?  It does make me wonder if power townies lose their ability upon recruitment. 

 

A lot of forgettable people.

 

...! That's an interesting idea.

 

I've played a game like this before and that happened.  Sometimes people got new abilities.

 

 

Albeit, I've seen cult recruit before where the recruit loses their powers.

 

Also, got it on WIM

[TheRagnarok]

Tom why am I supposed to present my case to you?  My argument is to a town that is, by and large, missing.  I know something and based on my claim vs rag's this is a simple and straightforward case.  Risk vs reward.  

 

Town rolecop vs town vanilla, which do you risk if they claim differing things?

Negative investigation vs "That's not true!" which do you go for in any situation EVER?

We could even be more vague about this.

PR VS VANILLA?

RESULT + INFO VS _____?

 

And if I am telling the truth and you lynch rag then you gain a mafia kill right there.

If I am telling the truth and you lynch me you lose a PR then lose another townie to NK or recruit and then get a mafia.

 

If I am lying and you lynch rag you lose a vanilla and get a mafia.  <----Still one less than if you lynch me an I am truthful

 

 

This is a 75% probability in my favor.  Simple as that without any arguing or rhetoric or WIFOM or control issues.  This is a nonissue and CANNOT BE ARGUED LOGICALLY

 

 

 

Considering the claims made yesterday...I would think we can guarantee that one of Darthe or Dice has been recruited. 

 

We can't because you're scum and so can't be trusted.

 

 

The basis of your argument is(assuming you aren't lying)...I dunno what happened but hey, at worst we lose a townie.

 

That is horrendous logic. 

 

Know why?  Cause players > roles.

[Darthe]

Darthe, you claim you got your own self as a target when you targeted Rags.

 

Why does that make him lock scum and not just someone who is bus drivered?

 

You claim you got "no result" on me.

 

What do you think that means about me? Does it mean I'm lock scum too, like you think Rags is?

 

Tells me that someone targetted me with an RB. It means nothing.  Rag having an ability that messes with my view makes more sense than me being bus driven with myself (1/132 chance) by some third group or individual.  Thus it is suspect of him.  Consider it in any other general situation.  If it was not Rag and I would this even be argued?  I highly doubt it.

[Darthe]

 

Tom why am I supposed to present my case to you?  My argument is to a town that is, by and large, missing.  I know something and based on my claim vs rag's this is a simple and straightforward case.  Risk vs reward.  

 

Town rolecop vs town vanilla, which do you risk if they claim differing things?

Negative investigation vs "That's not true!" which do you go for in any situation EVER?

We could even be more vague about this.

PR VS VANILLA?

RESULT + INFO VS _____?

 

And if I am telling the truth and you lynch rag then you gain a mafia kill right there.

If I am telling the truth and you lynch me you lose a PR then lose another townie to NK or recruit and then get a mafia.

 

If I am lying and you lynch rag you lose a vanilla and get a mafia.  <----Still one less than if you lynch me an I am truthful

 

 

This is a 75% probability in my favor.  Simple as that without any arguing or rhetoric or WIFOM or control issues.  This is a nonissue and CANNOT BE ARGUED LOGICALLY

 

 

 

Considering the claims made yesterday...I would think we can guarantee that one of Darthe or Dice has been recruited. 

 

We can't because you're scum and so can't be trusted.

 

 

The basis of your argument is(assuming you aren't lying)...I dunno what happened but hey, at worst we lose a townie.

 

That is horrendous logic. 

 

Know why?  Cause players > roles.

 

 

It isn't a matter of Player vs role.  It is a matter of Player + role vs -player - player

 

One of those is a long stretch above the other.

[TheRagnarok]

 

 

 

Okay, let's examine this.  I know my alignment and my ability as you do.  I received a result on night one that stated "Darthe, town role cop." which strikes me as beyond odd to get from another player in a recruiting game.  I intended to hold off on testing that result because it wasn't strong enough on its own to readily achieve a lynch and because while that strikes me as scummy enough on its own I also wanted to see the day play out some.  However, when you claimed day vig I saw quite a few possibilities for the town to gain a lot of info very quickly and to get verifiable information about Rag either through his death or through your own.  It wouldn't even cost the town a lynch.  That would be more than worth it if we managed to kill one of the Gods.  This both makes perfect sense as a plan and could have cracked the game wide open.  Town has yet to follow through but it will either today or after I flip.  However, having to kill a town PR to confirm that the town PR is telling the truth about a negative investigation they already know they got directly goes against the interests and potential gains of the town because it both removes a town PR and, if I am correct, gives Rag an extra chance to recruit.  That is far too large to allow me to ignore for any reason other than to confirm Dice yesterday by killing the Elder God that was Turin.  

 

My result for tonight was No Info, Sorry.  Something that I responded to.. unpleasantly.  I got my ears nipped a bit tbh, but that is neither here nor there.  How much plainer do I have to be before we lynch the person I got a view on?  It is the safer more logical choice for town to do even in the event that I am lying!  Rag didn't even bother to claim otherwise.  He piddled around for an entire day before messing with it.

 

 

 

I messed up quoting this so re-did it.

 

Let's examine this post,

 

1.  You start out with a false statement, claiming that we know your ability and alignment.

2.  You give yourself an excuse for waiting to out said information.  So it wasn't enough to lynch me over but it was enough to shoot me over?  Yeah, makes sense. 

3.  I like how you stated that town will follow through with it.  Nice psychological strategy. 

4.  The most likely scenario is that you were recruited by Turin N1.  I have been on Turin all game so you made up the claim in the hopes I'd get lynched over him which keeps your Elder God alive.  Well worth it.  However, Dice stepped up and your plan backfired.  Now you are stuck with a claim.  Not to mention a claim that you can backtrack from immediately when I flip town due to the vagueness of the result.  But you can't give an actual result for anyone else N2 because you're full of it so have to claim being blocked. 

 

You backed yourself into a corner with the fakeclaim. 

 

Not a false statement.  Tom stated he knew his abilities, I stated that I knew mine *AS DID HE*.  This was point for point, making that a scummy misrep.

Shooting you still allows for a lynch and in the event that shooting couldn't happen I still intended to provide the information, I simply would have held onto it until later

Town will.  It is logical, not psychological.  The psychological aspect of my play is pointing out every time that someone uses anything other than logic to make points.

That is more likely than you being mafia?  1/12 vs 2/12-5/12.  No matter how this is viewed this is a verifiably untrue statement.

 

 

4. Darthe - Either lying about investigating me or he got messed with N1.  Him getting no result N2 leads me to believe he is lying.

6. WBK Ley 2.0 - Null to town lean. 

7. GF - Claimed Doctor, hasn't done crap.  I could see him being recruited because of this.

8. Hallia - Has had some sketchy comments, but I know she is relatively new so torn on which way this goes.  Could go her way.

9. Dap - Don't remember a lot he has done.

10. Chuckles Tommy - Town lean.

13. Golden - Don't remember a lot he has done.

15 Dice - Investigator who didn't get his results in?  It does make me wonder if power townies lose their ability upon recruitment. 

 

A lot of forgettable people.

 

...! That's an interesting idea.

 

I've played a game like this before and that happened.  Sometimes people got new abilities.

 

 

Albeit, I've seen cult recruit before where the recruit loses their powers.

 

Also, got it on WIM

 

The only way he KNOWS your role and ability is if you two are aligned.  Otherwise it's a guess. 

Still kills a townie.

No, not logical. 

Being as I am town, and I know it's not my role...yes it is more likely. 

[Tommyrod]

Darthe, I'll just flat out state what's bothering me the most about this situation:

We don't yet have any proof of what you've claimed. You claimed Role Cop. Why are you not either recruited or dead? We have 2 gods who can either recruit or kill since you revealed. And they just opted to roleblock you? How would that work?

Same goes for Dice. If Rags is right and town PRs that get recruited lose their abilities, then you and Dice are probably already gone. No?

[TheRagnarok]

You do realize that your point has devolved into useless numbers/ratios/equations?

[dicetosser1]

i wasnt recruited. I screwed up. I wanted an answer about how action resolution was working. That answer was going to decide who i viewed. I kept checking throughout the day for an answer but forgot to make a decision and send it in.

 

Darthe on his play im not seeing rags as scummy.I was willing to believe your result but obviously wanted to get rid of a KNOWN mafia. If i had had my way we would have got 2 results yesterday by killing turin and lynching someone. Your no result last night has me hesitating because again i was reading you as town but this is a recruiting game. No result can easily be that you got recruited and are having to go along with it. We have both seen that happen before.

 

As for advanced player lists....no way im in the same league as some of these people round here and its not just cause of what you were pointing out.

 

 

I voted for someone I find suspect.

[Darthe]

Darthe, I'll just flat out state what's bothering me the most about this situation:

We don't yet have any proof of what you've claimed. You claimed Role Cop. Why are you not either recruited or dead? We have 2 gods who can either recruit or kill since you revealed. And they just opted to roleblock you? How would that work?

 

Same goes for Dice. If Rags is right and town PRs that get recruited lose their abilities, then you and Dice are probably already gone. No?

 

You can't get proof unless you lynch the person I viewed, lynch me, or are someone that I viewed.  I am currently WIFOM (as the gods would want) and recruiting is more powerful than killing.  As to why I have not been recruited or killed yet I can only speculate that town PR's cannot be recruited or that they simply did not want to bother with someone that was in such a hot seat.  You can't get proof and keep me around as a viable town utility except by one way.

 

Here is the real problem that I see.  The best way to prove that I have not been recruited is to get rag lynched.  If he is one of the mafia he would NOT want to recruit me.  That limits my chances of getting recruited.  You understand taht he wouldn't want to because we have to face off today I take it.  However that makes me much more likely to be recruited by the other team.  Much.  So, I need to get him killed, get another view, and die revealing it to verify myself.  If I get another zilch result then I am as good as dead anyways, right?  Again, it comes back to it being more logically sound to lynch rag than I.  But you're likely right taht between Dice and I I will have to die soon after or town will be in a perpetual state of WIFOM.

[Darthe]

i wasnt recruited. I screwed up. I wanted an answer about how action resolution was working. That answer was going to decide who i viewed. I kept checking throughout the day for an answer but forgot to make a decision and send it in.

 

Darthe on his play im not seeing rags as scummy.I was willing to believe your result but obviously wanted to get rid of a KNOWN mafia. If i had had my way we would have got 2 results yesterday by killing turin and lynching someone. Your no result last night has me hesitating because again i was reading you as town but this is a recruiting game. No result can easily be that you got recruited and are having to go along with it. We have both seen that happen before.

 

As for advanced player lists....no way im in the same league as some of these people round here and its not just cause of what you were pointing out.

 

 

I voted for someone I find suspect.

 

THAT ISN"T HELPFUL.  VOTE RAG OR VOTE ME.  THIS NEEDS SOLVED NOW.

[Darthe]

You do realize that your point has devolved into useless numbers/ratios/equations?

 

Mafia can be entirely won using statistics.  I've done it before, proven it soundly.  The numbers are not useless.  They are likelihoods.  Currently I am simply more logically sound to keep around.  

[Darthe]

 I have to go do girlfriend stuff.  I will return soon.

[TheRagnarok]

 

You do realize that your point has devolved into useless numbers/ratios/equations?

 

Mafia can be entirely won using statistics.  I've done it before, proven it soundly.  The numbers are not useless.  They are likelihoods.  Currently I am simply more logically sound to keep around.  

 

Wrong.  Mafia is an emotional game with people.  Math is about as useful as a poopie flavored lollipop. 

 

 

Darthe, I'll just flat out state what's bothering me the most about this situation:

We don't yet have any proof of what you've claimed. You claimed Role Cop. Why are you not either recruited or dead? We have 2 gods who can either recruit or kill since you revealed. And they just opted to roleblock you? How would that work?

 

Same goes for Dice. If Rags is right and town PRs that get recruited lose their abilities, then you and Dice are probably already gone. No?

 

You can't get proof unless you lynch the person I viewed, lynch me, or are someone that I viewed.  I am currently WIFOM (as the gods would want) and recruiting is more powerful than killing.  As to why I have not been recruited or killed yet I can only speculate that town PR's cannot be recruited or that they simply did not want to bother with someone that was in such a hot seat.  You can't get proof and keep me around as a viable town utility except by one way.

 

Here is the real problem that I see.  The best way to prove that I have not been recruited is to get rag lynched.  If he is one of the mafia he would NOT want to recruit me.  That limits my chances of getting recruited.  You understand taht he wouldn't want to because we have to face off today I take it.  However that makes me much more likely to be recruited by the other team.  Much.  So, I need to get him killed, get another view, and die revealing it to verify myself.  If I get another zilch result then I am as good as dead anyways, right?  Again, it comes back to it being more logically sound to lynch rag than I.  But you're likely right taht between Dice and I I will have to die soon after or town will be in a perpetual state of WIFOM.

 

Did you really try to clear yourself by speculating that town power roles CAN'T be recruited?  Really? 

 

And yes I would.  You would have been the perfect recruit for me last night because if I was scum...if one of us dies, it clears the other.  Awful logic once again. 

 

And you finish up, after musing that power townie roles can't be recruited, by saying that one of the power townies needs to die?

 

This is awful.  All of it.

[Tommyrod]

Anyone else wanna comment on this?

[GoldeneyesND]

Sure Tommy, I'll play. I don't like today. You claimed vig, but could just as easily have been mafia lying to be a vig- so that screws with one of my town reads a lot. 

There are 3 things I don't like about the Rags/Darthe situation 1- Since when does town cry over testing a scummy player who claims VT? All of a sudden Rags acts like possible numbers far outweigh power roles. That's just wrong. 2- I liked it when you were asking questions impartially. Now it looks like you're heavily buddying Rags to lynch Darthe and I have Rags' case as weaker in this argument. Please explain if and why I am misinterpreting the situation between you and Rags. Cause to be honest the switch from impartial to partial feels like you've been recruited last night. Unless you can think of a reason a faction would not want to lynch someone with a kill ability? 3- Even though I like Darthe's case more, it feels fairly fishy that he's fos'ing both of the people on the other side of his argument and claiming he got weird results back, but falls short of actually saying what the results are. Possibility here: Darthe is a deity and his "weird" result is that he tried to recruit/nk someone and it didn't take. As such, he wouldn't want to claim "guilty" or "scum" because he doesn't know what real language Dice gets when he investigates someone. 

[Tommyrod]

Sure Tommy, I'll play. I don't like today. You claimed vig, but could just as easily have been mafia lying to be a vig- so that screws with one of my town reads a lot. 

There are 3 things I don't like about the Rags/Darthe situation 1- Since when does town cry over testing a scummy player who claims VT? All of a sudden Rags acts like possible numbers far outweigh power roles. That's just wrong. 2- I liked it when you were asking questions impartially. Now it looks like you're heavily buddying Rags to lynch Darthe and I have Rags' case as weaker in this argument. Please explain if and why I am misinterpreting the situation between you and Rags. Cause to be honest the switch from impartial to partial feels like you've been recruited last night. Unless you can think of a reason a faction would not want to lynch someone with a kill ability? 3- Even though I like Darthe's case more, it feels fairly fishy that he's fos'ing both of the people on the other side of his argument and claiming he got weird results back, but falls short of actually saying what the results are. Possibility here: Darthe is a deity and his "weird" result is that he tried to recruit/nk someone and it didn't take. As such, he wouldn't want to claim "guilty" or "scum" because he doesn't know what real language Dice gets when he investigates someone. 

 

I could be... I did admit that I shot Chael, though. 

 

I'm more inclined to listen to Rags because I think he's doing a better job of arguing the situation, ignoring the influence of PRs. I've been having trouble believing Darthe for a while now. 

 

I myself am surprised I wasn't recruited or blocked. I acknowledge this is probably hypocritical coming from me.

 

So... would you say Darthe is telling the truth or not? 

[dicetosser1]

nice points golden. You have a point about town sacrificing one as a test. tho i dont find rags to be scummy i dont want to sacrifice Darthe incase he is a role cop for real

 

however rags does have a point that darthe would be a perfect recruit for Rags if rags is scum   and darthe should know that.

 

 

i wanna think this over more and will leave my vote where it is

[GoldeneyesND]

Short answer: I think all three of you are lying to some extent. I'm not sure you're a vig. I straight up don't believe Rags is a VT. I'm not sure Darthe is a role cop. Whether or not that means you're scum is up for debate.

It comes down to this:

1-If Rags is lying and we lynch him- we kill scum.

2-If Rags is telling the truth and Darthe is lying and we lynch Rags-Darthe is scum and we insta-lynch scum tomorrow.

3- If Rags is lying and Darthe is telling the truth and we lynch Darthe- kill a town power role. 

 

Based on that it seems simple to me: you lynch Rags and worst-case you guarantee a scum lynched within the next 2 lynches. I'm supposed to lynch Darthe because you like Rags the VT more? It doesn't make sense to me. I'll trade a VT for a scum anyday if need be.

[Tommyrod]

Short answer: I think all three of you are lying to some extent. I'm not sure you're a vig. I straight up don't believe Rags is a VT. I'm not sure Darthe is a role cop. Whether or not that means you're scum is up for debate.

It comes down to this:

1-If Rags is lying and we lynch him- we kill scum.

2-If Rags is telling the truth and Darthe is lying and we lynch Rags-Darthe is scum and we insta-lynch scum tomorrow.

3- If Rags is lying and Darthe is telling the truth and we lynch Darthe- kill a town power role. 

 

Based on that it seems simple to me: you lynch Rags and worst-case you guarantee a scum lynched within the next 2 lynches. I'm supposed to lynch Darthe because you like Rags the VT more? It doesn't make sense to me. I'll trade a VT for a scum anyday if need be.

 

I think Rags and I come from a mafia culture that believes in threadplay over power roles. People can claim anything at any time. But is it consistent with their threadplay?

 

That said, I can see why you'd want to lynch Rags over Darthe.

 

I genuinely don't know what to do here. I really put us in a bad position today by shooting Chael.

 

Unvote Darthe

[GoldeneyesND]

fwiw, I have no problem with that choice. Hindsight is 20/20, but I didn't even realize she claimed and I read all her posts. I thought the mayor thing was a joke. Her play was fairly ripe for being a recruit.

[Tommyrod]

I wonder how many townies are even left.

 

N1: 3 gods, 1 god kill. I know Chuckles didn't shoot anyone N1, so that means 2 recruits if none of them failed.

 

N2: 2 gods, 1 vig kill, 0 god kills. That means 2 more recruits if none of them failed.

So in the worst case, 4 of the original townies are now followers.

So here's the game from my perspective:

 

1. Turin - Turin - Varuna - Mafia Hindu Elder God - Lynched Day 2
2. Chaelca - Dead Town Mayor
3. Andrej - Manmohan Singh - Vanilla Town - Lynched Day 1
4. Darthe - Claimed Role Cop D2
5. TheRagnarok - Claimed VT D2
6. WBK Ley 2.0 - ???
7. GF - Claimed Doc D1
8. Hallia - Claimed VT D2
9. Dap - ???
10. Chuckles Tommy - Still Town Vig
12. Ley - David Cameron - Vanilla Town - Killed Night 1
13. Golden - ???
15 Dice - Claimed Cop D2

 

So 2 gods, up to 4 recruits within those 8 people. So up to 6 no-longer-town in that pile.

With both Dice and Darthe not having results from N2, we're basically guessing at who the gods are. If I go by threadplay, I still want to lynch Dice and Dap. Dice claimed cop, but Dap refused to claim. So... what do I do? Push for his lynch because I was right about Turin based on tone so I think I'd be right about Dap based on tone, or go for someone else, seemingly at random? 

Blah.