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Just a little Respect!


Myyrth
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His mental balance and complete lack of trust for those around him is the biggest problem.

 

Odd, then, that around Cadsuane he is now exercising both self-restraint and demonstrating trust. Its almost as if her tactics are working against what you view as his two worst problems ...

 

Sometimes the comfortable "nice" way is not the best way to deal with someone. Even someone who is a good person stuck in a horrible situation.

 

Rand is in a horrible, difficult position. He has, overall, borne up admirably under a mountain of pain, anguish, misery, and responsibility. You assume because Cadsuane doesn't spend her time telling him what a nice boy he is, that she doesn't know that.

 

She spends her time helping him do what he needs to do. When he acts like an idiot, she tells him, and she doesn't sugarcoat it. Thats not a sign of disrespect. Rand knows it, too, which is why he's starting to trust her, when he doesn't trust the lickspittles.

 

But when he is coming up with good and important ideas and plans, she not only supports him against others who doubt, she helps him implement them. Cleansing the Taint? All the Aes Sedai but Cadsuane thought he was mad. She organized the defense that kept him alive while doing it. Meeting with the Seanchan? She had reservations, which she voiced, but then she followed his plan, and kept him from getting captured. If that isn't a sign of respect from her, I don't know what is.

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cadsuane is awesome yo. Her and Sorilea define power in a woman. And its obvious Rand needs a spanking. Why would you be bothered about cadsuane's respect for Rand when she basically saves his asss and is going to keep him from turning into a psychopath (that learn tears and laughter thingy). Would you care if something called you a retard then pulled you up from hanging on a cliff? bleh??

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Good points everyone. It was starting to look like Rand was on Prozac for a while. I definately think that him showing a little emotion is a good thing and Cads the one whos trying to help him to do this.

 

As for the way Cads treats him, I cant say its with a lack of respect. It's more of a tough love kinda thing i'd say.

 

With that being said, I still hate (yes i know hate is a strong word, but so is my dislike for Aes Sedai) 95% of the Aes Sedai of the White Tower.

 

Just so the AS lovers don't jump all over me ... Moraine gets mad respect in my books and is one of my top 10 fav chars.

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Guest Fire Lord

I don't see why Cadsuane saving Rand should give her the right to act the way she does. I consider it a responsibility she has to assume in such situations, her duty, Rand would do the same if the situations were reversed. And frankly speaking, she has no choice, either she assumes responsibility and saves him or she ignores it and he dies and, well you know the drill.

 

And RAW, something people conveniently ignore, in their first meeting she pretty much insulted him, however you want to disguise it, without any idea of what he had had to put up from AS. You call that a diplomatic entry in matters? But somehow Rand threw a tantrum. He doesn't know who she's, but she is AS, that is reason enough not to trust her, yet on top of that she insults him. Perhap you'd take it calmly, but hey, you're not him. And people, let's try to put ourselves in someone's shoes before condemning them?

 

The problem is, when I say this it is understood

that I want Cadsuane to bow and grovel. No. In her +200 years of experience this is the best way she comes up to deal with someone she doesn't know a scrap about yet she knows is a dangerous man? The idea that she has dealt with strong-willed men and thus would know how to handle Rand is an excuse, each man is unique, there's no knowing how he'd react. For instance, had it been Taim, I'm not sure she'd have walked away unharmed. And for all she knew, he was already insane and provoking him could make him actually lash out in rage.

 

 

And another issue you call a tantrum, when he -storms off- after learning about Callandor, I see no such thing. Furthermore I see a distressed Rand. He had hoped to use Callandor to remove the taint, and he has just been told flat out that it's impossible. Why distress? He's not comfortable with using the great s'angreal, with that much of the Power, yet it's the only option he's left with.

 

RAW, Moiraine'd have done everything Cadsuane did, and even Verin, so no special mention.

 

Someone defined Cadsuane as part the Creator's sister and part Harriet, and I tend to agree, if for different reasons. I think every character in the book has flaws, yet Cadsuane seems not to have any. That doesn't just feel right.

 

And since people're already convinced he is acting like a child so her methods are the right ones. Lol, I can only think of a Questioner, even if you're inncent, to him you're already guilty, so the only task for him is how to wrench confessions from you.

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Guest Barmacral

Just something to point out here, Cadsuane's behavior may have something to do with that house in the black hills (I think thats where it was?) nearly 300 years ago.

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And RAW, something people conveniently ignore, in their first meeting she pretty much insulted him, however you want to disguise it, without any idea of what he had had to put up from AS. You call that a diplomatic entry in matters?

 

I call it a test. She deliberately provoked him, to find out where he was, mentally. She has seen more men in the grip of the taint than anyone alive. She was conducting the equivalent of a mental check-up. Its not nice to whack someone in the knee, or expose them to low level radiation, but doctors do it to check up on a person's health. Thats what Cadsuane did in that first meeting.

 

And what did she do that was SOOOOOOO insulting? Someone who is claiming to lead the entire world should be able to withstand a few verbal thrusts. Rand acted like a spoiled pre-adolescent in that meeting. His behavior has much improved since then, as a result of Cadsuane not putting up with his childishness.

 

In her +200 years of experience this is the best way she comes up to deal with someone she doesn't know a scrap about yet she knows is a dangerous man?

 

I place in evidence in her favor this: its working. Rand trusts her, when he made all other Aes Sedai (including Verin) kneel and swear fealty.

 

RAW, Moiraine'd have done everything Cadsuane did, and even Verin, so no special mention.

 

But neither would have been in a position to do what Cadsuane has done. Neither has their own coterie of Aes Sedai followers, Cadsuane's equipment, or her influence. Moiraine and Verin certainly share Cadsuane's intentions, but neither has her capacity. Cadsuane has far more ability and influence than either Moiraine or Verin, and could have chosen to use it against Rand, but has not.

 

Besides, thats good company for Cadsuane to be in. Moiraine and Verin are two of the Aes Sedai who have helped Rand the most, and who he respects and trusts.

 

Lol, I can only think of a Questioner, even if you're inncent, to him you're already guilty, so the only task for him is how to wrench confessions from you.

 

Thats so far off I'm amazed. What has Cadsuane done to hurt Rand IN ANY WAY? What plan has she forced him to give up? What authority of his has she undermined? What group now no longer follows him because of her influence?

 

She's done nothing but help.

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Alright, many people have given compelling arguments and have largely swayed me to at least respect Cadsuane if not like her.

 

Problem is... she's too perfect. I NEED her to be cut down, to be embaressed or showed up by somebody! Preferably Rand, Mat or Perrin. She's not made any real mistakes yet, she's just too flawless.

 

It is soooo aggravating!

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She's the quintesential Aes Sedai, I think thats exactly why she's in the story. We get a little first hand taste of what the common folk of the story have to deal with. That and perhaps a little deus ex machina to bring Rand and the Ashaman back under control.

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I NEED her to be cut down, to be embaressed or showed up by somebody!

 

Why? Why does the fact that one Aes Sedai is actually smart, and in the course of several hundred years managed to learn alot, irritate everyone so much? Given the odds, I'm irritated that so many Aes Sedai aren't more like her.

 

Besides, she's hardly perfect. She just doesn't make obvious mistakes, or go around advertising them. She missed who was the real Dragon Reborn by traipsing after Logain and Mazrim Taim until Rand had already been badly hurt and hardened in the wrong way by circumstances. Thats a pretty big mistake, that she missed him when Moiraine did not. Its the reason she has to take this somewhat adversarial course to deal with him.

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I NEED her to be cut down' date=' to be embaressed or showed up by somebody! [/quote']

 

Why? Why does the fact that one Aes Sedai is actually smart, and in the course of several hundred years managed to learn alot, irritate everyone so much? Given the odds, I'm irritated that so many Aes Sedai aren't more like her.

 

Besides, she's hardly perfect. She just doesn't make obvious mistakes, or go around advertising them. She missed who was the real Dragon Reborn by traipsing after Logain and Mazrim Taim until Rand had already been badly hurt and hardened in the wrong way by circumstances. Thats a pretty big mistake, that she missed him when Moiraine did not. Its the reason she has to take this somewhat adversarial course to deal with him.

 

No matter the level of dislike anyone may have for her in regards to how she has dealt with Rand I don't think they would like to read of an event where she is cut down or anything else too negative especially since she her teaching Rand something is necessary and anything hindering that could prove fatal. Besides even if say Rand were to show her up or anything along those lines I am absolutely sure it wouldn't be that disarming to her since she is certainly aware of the capabilities of those around her which is most likely the reason she acts the way she does. Think of it this way when a lion is being trained does the trainer immediately allow the lion to be dominant or does the trainer assume dominance themselves and try to keep up an image of that in the face of whatever the lion may throw at them.

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A) I know I am not going to save the world it was just a way of stating my opinion and my ability to relate to Rand in this specific way.

 

B) I never said anything aout tear but can ya give me a quote so I can know exactly what your talking about. I'm pretty sure your talking about the AS bargiaining with the nobles but I want to be sure. If thats the case your right he does admit he's wrong.

 

On A, my point was specifically that what is allowable for joe random is not for someone you are relying on to save the world. If you or I or Master Al'vere acted in the manner Rand did around Cadsuane, she would likely have called us on it and left it at that. But Rand is different, she cannot simply walk away from him acting like a child. There is too much at stake. He may not have asked for it, he may deserve more consideration in theory, but in reality he must be held to a higher standard, because the shadow wont be forgiving of him lashing out blindly just because of the presure on him.

 

On B, i'm sorry, but that was a part of the flow of the thread, which you have to read. Yes, we were discussing his actions in Tear, during KoD, when he lashed out at Bera because she allowed people who had dared to snub him back into the fold.

 

No point arguing. He has a lot on his plate he cant take time to think about everything if he did it would be well after TG when he finally gets around to doing something about anything.

 

You think the Forsaken will go "Oh, sorry you didn't think about things before you acted. No, it's cool, we'll wait. You just come when your nice and ready."

 

He cannot handle everything, its true, and his trying to has been one of his large failures. But he cannot afford to continue acting the way he is. He needs to be willing to listen, and willing to think, and that is a big part of what Cadsuane is addressing.

 

I have read my bible twice cant say it does much good. I don't believe in "God" so theres no spiritual advantage for me rereading a pointless book like the bible.

 

Not everything is about you mate. I was speaing to someone else, who made a fallacious reference to Jesus not getting reprimanded.

 

Cadsuane can cut flows of Saidin, where did you see this as? I know her terangreal stops saidin from touching her but nothing else provides evidence that she can cut flows of saidin. In Winters heart she made a shield thats it she didn't face any forsaken personally. Also Rand and LTT are almost merged completely so you have to factor that in and the fact that he is as deadly with weapons and his hands as he is with saidin I personally believe he is more than a match for Cadsuane. I'm not going to argue the point though I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe this is purely speculation and unless RJ makes them face off we'll never know

 

All Aes Sedai learn the weave to sever flows of the Power. That includes weaves of saidin.

 

Just a moment ... Did someone just "suggest" that if somehow Caduane and Rand were to fight ... that rand would die ?

 

Nope.

 

Wow, for being so full of yourself with your "biblical" knowledge, answer me this ... Why do you believe the Creator would allow the Dragon Reborn to bee snuffed out by just another simple thread in his pattern ? At least Dark friends would have some excuse because theyare somewhat outside of the Creators sway. But Caduane ? Yeah ... I'm sure she could beat Lewis Therin in a battle of channeling ... He who was pretty much the greatest channeler of all time, he who was picked to LEAD the Aes Sedia while they were in their PRIME to LEAD them.

 

I'm sorry, but what? The Wheel of Time is not the Bible. The Creator is not God. We have never seen the Creator exercise any power in the books, and we have been told time and again that Rand can die.

 

Where was your creator when Rand was captured by the Tower Sisters?

 

And you really think he will stop Cadsuane in anyway.

 

My god... your whole post is rediculous... Cadsuane killing Rand. The Creator stopping her in a great unprecedented act of devine intervention... ?

 

Just wow...

 

I dont really think she has any right to lecture Rand about how he should behave. I'd like to see what kind of sacrifices shes making that make her so special. She's suppose to die facing the DO in the LB right? She was kept locked in a chest and periodically tortured by a group of Aes Sedai right? She was illegally bonded by a male asha man right? No, she wasn't.

 

It's not about right. As nietzsche states, right is established by those who have the power to see their will eacted, and Cadsuane has that. She has seen something flawed in Rand, the man on whom the fate of the world sits. THAT gives her the right to intervene.

 

Just as a side note. I LOVE the way Aes Sedai get treated by the Wise Ones. Its a little taste of their own medicine

 

I do too.

 

Cadsuane is not even as wise as Moiraine in this respect. She is blemished by her centuries of life and believes she is due respect without first earning it. I agree with everything Luckers says except for one point. Cadsuane in her first meeting with Rand came onto his turf and intentionally provoked him. That is rude and inexcusable. For that one failing on her part all her other pretexts of "treating others as they deserve to be treated" go out the window. In her first meeting she did not treat Rand as he deserved to be treated by her. Any sense of balance on her part since then is still permanently skewed by her childish actions in that first meeting.

 

They have different goals though. Moiraine was trying to aid Rand in his drive to save the world, Cadsuane is trying to teach Rand something about himself in order that he be stronger in himself when it comes time to save the world. I dont think you could do that from a subserviant position, but you could do what Moiraine does.

 

Quote:

I agree with everything Luckers says except for one point. Cadsuane in her first meeting with Rand came onto his turf and intentionally provoked him. That is rude and inexcusable. For that one failing on her part all her other pretexts of "treating others as they deserve to be treated" go out the window. In her first meeting she did not treat Rand as he deserved to be treated by her. Any sense of balance on her part since then is still permanently skewed by her childish actions in that first meeting.

 

 

This is an important point I missed previously, Possibly the reason I just cannot tolerate Cadsuane is that my first impression of her was of a blind, arrogant, childish Aes Sedai with many of the flaws I saw in Elaida.

 

I dont disagree in full. Cadsuane did act the bitch then, but she did it purposefully to see how he handled it. It wasn't out of any innate bitchyness. She sought to see the way he reacted to an unconventional confrontational situation. In the same way that her sorrow over destroying Aleis in some way lessens the fact that she did it, her thoughts on that meeting with Rand lessen the effect of the incident on judging her... at least to me.

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I tend to be drawn to characters with flaws, and interesting emotional characteristics. Cadsuane is just right all the time, and bosses people around. Okay, accepting that she is indeed wise and she's doing the best for Rand. She has an important and necessary mission in the story. She just such an undynamic character to me, she just shows up in the books one day with a lot of mystery behind her and starts trying to make Rand "all better".

 

I want some human flaws, she's just too much of a robot too me.

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My issue with Cadsuane is simple: Lews Therin.

 

As Rand merges more and more with Lews Therin,LTT's experiences are coming through to Rand.

 

To be of comparable age with Demandred, LTT had to be at least 300 years old at the time of the War of Shadow (or perhaps a bit older), he was superbly educated, superbly trained, and superbly experienced.

 

Rand himself is a young man of twenty. But as time passes, he increasingly is gaining the experience and skills of a man who quite frankly surpasses Cadsuane in every area of endeavor- and yes, there is the insanity issue, but it's not relevent to my point, in that it's extremely aggravating that she dismisses/considers Rand as a "boy."

 

The more Rand and LTT merge, the more Rand becomes, in terms of experience, her peer- and then surpasses her in training, understanding, and knowledge. Character flaws aside, his young body aside, Rand- inside his head- is not truly a 20 year old man.

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My issue with Cadsuane is simple: Lews Therin.

 

As Rand merges more and more with Lews Therin,LTT's experiences are coming through to Rand.

 

To be of comparable age with Demandred, LTT had to be at least 300 years old at the time of the War of Shadow (or perhaps a bit older), he was superbly educated, superbly trained, and superbly experienced.

 

Rand himself is a young man of twenty. But as time passes, he increasingly is gaining the experience and skills of a man who quite frankly surpasses Cadsuane in every area of endeavor- and yes, there is the insanity issue, but it's not relevent to my point, in that it's extremely aggravating that she dismisses/considers Rand as a "boy."

 

The more Rand and LTT merge, the more Rand becomes, in terms of experience, her peer- and then surpasses her in training, understanding, and knowledge. Character flaws aside, his young body aside, Rand- inside his head- is not truly a 20 year old man.

 

Perhaps, but nor is he in any way wise--LTT included. Certainly no one in arguing that Rand does not have experience and knowledge that exceeds hers in many ways, but you must concede the same of her. Especially given that she is stable within herself, whilst Rand, even without the voice in his head, has a pretty unstable personality.

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Mother figure ? lol Hold on a second. Just like every other Aes Sedai out there, Caudsane or however you spell her name has 2 Main flaws ...

 

1) She's servering her own self interests, period.

-Don't believe me ? ... Then please read the passage when Rand asks her about his peace treaty with the seachan.

 

2) She automatically assumes, just because she is an Aes Sedia, she somehow has a better grasp on the situtation.

-lol I can acually use the same example for both passages ^, it's kind of convenient.

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All Aes Sedai learn the weave to sever flows of the Power. That includes weaves of saidin.

Are you sure about this Luckers? I thought differant weaves were needed to cut saidar and saidin, and I think we are both opperating on assumptions.

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On A' date=' my point was specifically that what is allowable for joe random is not for someone you are relying on to save the world. If you or I or Master Al'vere acted in the manner Rand did around Cadsuane, she would likely have called us on it and left it at that. But Rand is different, she cannot simply walk away from him acting like a child. There is too much at stake. He may not have asked for it, he may deserve more consideration in theory, but in reality he must be held to a higher standard, because the shadow wont be forgiving of him lashing out blindly just because of the presure on him.

 

On B, i'm sorry, but that was a part of the flow of the thread, which you have to read. Yes, we were discussing his actions in Tear, during KoD, when he lashed out at Bera because she allowed people who had dared to snub him back into the fold.

 

 

 

You think the Forsaken will go "Oh, sorry you didn't think about things before you acted. No, it's cool, we'll wait. You just come when your nice and ready."

 

He cannot handle everything, its true, and his trying to has been one of his large failures. But he cannot afford to continue acting the way he is. He needs to be willing to listen, and willing to think, and that is a big part of what Cadsuane is addressing.

 

 

 

Not everything is about you mate. I was speaing to someone else, who made a fallacious reference to Jesus not getting reprimanded.

 

 

All Aes Sedai learn the weave to sever flows of the Power. That includes weaves of saidin.

[/quote']

 

On A & B -

 

I concede the points.

 

 

 

On the time thing -

 

I also concede this point. Your right he can't take the amount of time needed to actually think about everything but he also can't keep going like he is. I think he should get some people he can trust and set them up in his stead. Your right she is addressing these things.

 

 

 

As to the bible thing -

 

I apologize I thought you were speaking to me I should have been more careful while reading your post.

 

 

And finally the severing flows subject -

 

I can't remember reading about that in the books. Would you be able to find the book/page it's on?

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Character flaws aside, his young body aside, Rand- inside his head- is not truly a 20 year old man.

 

Everything Rand gets from Lews Therin is filtered through the vessel of insanity. The knowledge and experience he gains through memory is offset by the emotional instability that comes with it.

 

Cadsuane has a comparable number of years experience, in the present world, fully integrated in one personality, without being filtered through insanity.

 

Rand knows this, which is why he trusts her.

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Rand can't, and won't trust anyone (aside from Min, Elayne, Alv whatever). He tolerates her pressance because of Mins viewing of her, he also occasionally uses her knowledge and asks for her opinion.

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Rand can't, and won't trust anyone (aside from Min, Elayne, Alv whatever). He tolerates her pressance because of Mins viewing of her, he also occasionally uses her knowledge and asks for her opinion.

 

I disagree. He's treating Cadsuane differently than other people who he "has to keep around". Thats how he treated her at first, but now he's asking her opinion on matters that don't relate to the viewing, sharing things with her that he's not telling others.

 

Look, I'm not saying they have heart-to-hearts over Ben and Jerry's. But he asked her what she thought about the Seanchan treaty. He let her in on the plan to cleanse the taint. He hasn't asked anyone else about any of his plans in forever. Its a small chink in his icy iron armor, but it is progress no one has made since Moiraine left. His relationship with the girls is different ... important, but different.

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Look' date=' I'm not saying they have heart-to-hearts over Ben and Jerry's....[/quote']

 

Heh, I like that. You could play with that and post it to the "joke" thread... :D

 

Also, I agree with your comment, by the way.

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But he asked her what she thought about the Seanchan treaty. He let her in on the plan to cleanse the taint.

 

Hence my saying, "He tolerates her pressance because of Mins viewing of her, he also occasionally uses her knowledge and asks for her opinion."

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What I was saying was in response to your statement that he "can't, and won't trust anyone". I was pointing out that the fact that "he also occasionally uses her knowledge and asks for her opinion" is evidence that he is treating her differently than other people he keeps around just for necessity's sake. Can you imagine him asking Taim anything? Or Logain? Even Alanna or Verin? He doesn't even really ask Bashere anything.

 

You don't like Cadsuane, so you choose not to see it, but it is nevertheless there. Rand trusts her more than he trusts any of his other "advisors" or hangers-on. He has trusted her with his two major plans, the cleansing and the treaty with the Seanchan, and she has facilitated both to the best of her ability, keeping him alive in both cases. You're being deliberately blind if you think he doesn't know and value that.

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1) She's servering her own self interests, period.

-Don't believe me ? ... Then please read the passage when Rand asks her about his peace treaty with the seachan.

 

Is it an issue if i still don't believe you?

 

He asked her opinion, she gave it. She did not in anyway try and force that pinion on him, and when push came to shove she served HIS interest, in direct oposition of her own stated opinion...

 

2) She automatically assumes, just because she is an Aes Sedia, she somehow has a better grasp on the situtation.

-lol I can acually use the same example for both passages ^, it's kind of convenient.

 

No, she assumes that because she's Cadsuane she had a better grasp of situation. Wether this is better (and i personally think, given her personal history, that it is a MUCH better system to judge things on) i leave to you to decide. What IS clear is that she does not regaurd Aes Sedai as purporting instinctual correctness. As from the many scenes where she puts down sisters, comments on the actions of Amyrlins, and in general goes against Aes Sedai indoctrination, she actively swears to direguard the Aes Sedai position. And as she IS bound by the First Oath, she meant it.

 

Are you sure about this Luckers? I thought differant weaves were needed to cut saidar and saidin, and I think we are both opperating on assumptions.

 

Fire and spirit, every time.

 

On A & B -

 

I concede the points.

 

 

 

On the time thing -

 

I also concede this point. Your right he can't take the amount of time needed to actually think about everything but he also can't keep going like he is. I think he should get some people he can trust and set them up in his stead. Your right she is addressing these things.

 

 

 

As to the bible thing -

 

I apologize I thought you were speaking to me I should have been more careful while reading your post.

 

Nah, it's cool. i didn't mean my response to sound harsh.

 

Everything Rand gets from Lews Therin is filtered through the vessel of insanity. The knowledge and experience he gains through memory is offset by the emotional instability that comes with it.

 

Cadsuane has a comparable number of years experience, in the present world, fully integrated in one personality, without being filtered through insanity.

 

Rand knows this, which is why he trusts her.

 

This is a very good point. RJ has shown again and again that reguarding the wisdom of the Age of Legends as being superior to that of the modern is wrong. Just look at the fate of the Forsaken.

 

Rand can't, and won't trust anyone (aside from Min, Elayne, Alv whatever). He tolerates her pressance because of Mins viewing of her, he also occasionally uses her knowledge and asks for her opinion.

 

Well... A)I dont think he trusts them. He loves them, certainly. He would do anything for them, and place his life in their hands... but trust implies a level of equality that is lacking in his opinion of them. This is not to say he looks down on the, but he distances himself from them constantly. He does not trust himself near them, even with the loss of the taint.

 

This is something he does not have with Cadsuane... and that is part of what makes her powerful. She can handle anything he throws at her, and he knows that. It is the cause for a degree of trust from someones whose greatest fear is the pain HE can inflict on them, not on what they can do to him. Even Moiraine he blames himself for, and she was the closest to a woman whose strength is unevened... and even she, he holds as point of pain.

 

So i disagree... i think he trusts Cadsuane more implicitly then he does others, just not as... extrovertedly.

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