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Just a little Respect!


Myyrth
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That first post got me riled up.

 

I WANT THE OLD BITCHES BLOOD!!! KNEEL OR DIE WRETCH!

 

Lol, Ya.. Rand does have to put up with quite a lot of shit from his friends... but you have to remember..

 

 

 

 

The bastard has 3 wives! That = a 4 some!!!! Most guys only dream of a 3 some!!!

 

I plan on having this as well. I'm actually saving up the money as you read this. Then, I'll have one thing less to do on my "Things to do before you die" list. Hopefully I'll complete everything. Although, I think it will be hard to have sex while sky diving...sky diving naked... :oops:

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Obviously we have diffrent opinions on the use of Operant Conditioning.

 

I wasn't trying to say going into a rage is a noble trait... I had origionally thought u where questiong his ability claim the title of Noble. Then when I realized you where actually saying Rand wasn't a noble individual that is what I am denying. Rand can throw a tantrum once and a while and still be a noble person.

 

Rand cannot be seen to throw a temper. He is already looked at with too much fear to risk having people start questioning is rationality.

 

Cadsuane doesn't have any problem with Rand being angry, she has problems, rightfully so, with the way he expresses his anger. If his anger is justified and conveyed in a constructive manner she wouldn't interfere. A raised voice is never as effective as one that is controlled and calculated. A subtle undertone of anger is going to sink in much more than any amount of screaming and shouting will.

 

People don't lose respect for Rand when Cadsuane begins her count to five in response to his tantrums. He already lost there respect by throwing the tantrum in the first place. Seeing that he can regain control when Cadsuane draws his attention to his actions would actually regain some of the respect he just lost.

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Obviously we have diffrent opinions on the use of Operant Conditioning.

 

I wasn't trying to say going into a rage is a noble trait... I had origionally thought u where questiong his ability claim the title of Noble. Then when I realized you where actually saying Rand wasn't a noble individual that is what I am denying. Rand can throw a tantrum once and a while and still be a noble person.

 

Rand cannot be seen to throw a temper. He is already looked at with too much fear to risk having people start questioning is rationality.

 

Cadsuane doesn't have any problem with Rand being angry' date=' she has problems, rightfully so, with the way he expresses his anger. If his anger is justified and conveyed in a constructive manner she wouldn't interfere. A raised voice is never as effective as one that is controlled and calculated. A subtle undertone of anger is going to sink in much more than any amount of screaming and shouting will.

 

People don't lose respect for Rand when Cadsuane begins her count to five in response to his tantrums. He already lost there respect by throwing the tantrum in the first place. Seeing that he can regain control when Cadsuane draws his attention to his actions would actually regain some of the respect he just lost.[/quote']

 

 

I have to dispute you on this one point. They do not lose respect for him when he throws his tantrums, as you call them, because they fear him and know his value in the fight against the shadow. His rage is mainly due to the inability of people to follow orders when he's right and so he gets mad and I would as well. If I am going to sacrifice my life to give the world a small chance to be safe then I would want people to at least listen to me so that I can make sure I do save as much of the world as possible. And he does lose respect in the eyes of the world when Cadsuane calls him to account.

 

Religious Example: Mary telling Jesus to pull up his robe and bend over in front of his disciples because he lost his temper with the Jews who didn't believe he was Gods son.

 

Political Example: The Vice President telling the president he's a jackass and wrong in front of other people.

 

Point being it makes people lose respect for you and see you as more of a normal person. Whereas someone would have listened unquestionably before witnessing such an act they would question you now. In the coming battle Rand needs unflinching devotion and obedience to win and with Cadsuane he is losing that gradually.

 

 

He takes advice from those he trusts and respects but Cadsuane tries to bully him into how she wants him to act, and him being from the Two Rivers it isnt the best approach. I'm suprised that Rand hasn't seriously gone off the deep end against her and don't kid yourself Rand would win. Cadsuane has ter'angreal yeah but Rand can cut the flows of Saidar as they come at him as well. The battle between the two may last a long time but Rand would eventually come out on top.

 

This is only my opinion of course.

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Wow, i walk away from the site for a couple of weeks, come back and people are STILL fighting about that wretched excuse of a classy powerful person; Cadsuane. At least now there are a couple more openly contentious antagonists that will stand up against the gynocratic overlords and their fawning masses. I guess the war rages on then. Is Cadsuane the Creators Messenger sent to guide the Dragon Reborn to his proper place, or is she merely a bitter old biddy that thinks she knows better than anyone ever and does what she does for whatever reasons she thinks bet, and damn the Dragon Reborn? That question has only one book left for a real answer, and I hope RJ doesn't puss out and let that woman live. Hell i hope he allows the DO out. And i hope its because Rand looks around and says "none of you worthless piles of dung are worth dying for. Take it all Shai'tan and damn you too you worthless absentee Creator for putting this kind of burden on a mortal man...to hell with existence" Because as far as i can see no one in the book series deserves saving. Not one character has earned their own salvation, but everyone of them would be more than happy for Rand to die so they could have it. And from the statements i see round here some people would criticize the savior and find fault while that same savior was walking towards the gallows. And others would cheer the person doing the criticizing saying things like "So you are the savior...big deal you haven't earned our respect....you're just going to die so we can live on...big f'ing deal shut up or ill slap ya!!" Of course RJ won't go this route...but i can always dream.

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Wow' date=' i walk away from the site for a couple of weeks, come back and people are STILL fighting about that wretched excuse of a classy powerful person; Cadsuane. At least now there are a couple more openly contentious antagonists that will stand up against the gynocratic overlords and their fawning masses. I guess the war rages on then. Is Cadsuane the Creators Messenger sent to guide the Dragon Reborn to his proper place, or is she merely a bitter old biddy that thinks she knows better than anyone ever and does what she does for whatever reasons she thinks bet, and damn the Dragon Reborn? That question has only one book left for a real answer, and I hope RJ doesn't puss out and let that woman live. Hell i hope he allows the DO out. And i hope its because Rand looks around and says "none of you worthless piles of dung are worth dying for. Take it all Shai'tan and damn you too you worthless absentee Creator for putting this kind of burden on a mortal man...to hell with existence" Because as far as i can see no one in the book series deserves saving. [b']Not one character has earned their own salvation[/b], but everyone of them would be more than happy for Rand to die so they could have it. And from the statements i see round here some people would criticize the savior and find fault while that same savior was walking towards the gallows. And others would cheer the person doing the criticizing saying things like "So you are the savior...big deal you haven't earned our respect....you're just going to die so we can live on...big f'ing deal shut up or ill slap ya!!" Of course RJ won't go this route...but i can always dream.

 

I seriously couldnt agree more. Most of the people in this series deserve to die. The only people who even deserve to live are my 3 least favorite characters, well 2 least favorite. Min is okay but Aviendha and Elayne are worthless. All Elayne does is bitch and wine in the last few books. Aviendha just says sister you have toh and touchs some terangreal thats it.

 

Let me think for a bit I may hink of a couple others who deserve to live.

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So what if Rand Al'thor has a few human faults.

 

What about Jesus, Jesus threw a tantrum and threw some tables about when a bunch of people where selling stuff in front of a temple! I don't see people saying Jesus was a child in need of discipline!

 

The point is, Rand Al'thor has suffered more hardship than even Jesus fricking Christ has. Respect? Definatly earned in his regard ten times over.

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So what if Rand Al'thor has a few human faults.

 

What about Jesus' date=' Jesus threw a tantrum and threw some tables about when a bunch of people where selling stuff in front of a temple! I don't see people saying Jesus was a child in need of discipline!

 

The point is, Rand Al'thor has suffered more hardship than even Jesus fricking Christ has. Respect? Definatly earned in his regard ten times over.[/quote']

 

I was actually supporting you in this. I cant figure out if you were directing your comments towards me or not so I just wanted to clarify my standing on this particular topic.

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I wasn't trying to say going into a rage is a noble trait... I had origionally thought u where questiong his ability claim the title of Noble. Then when I realized you where actually saying Rand wasn't a noble individual that is what I am denying. Rand can throw a tantrum once and a while and still be a noble person.

 

I dont disagree... in fact i reguard Rand as very much the classic tragic hero, but that being said you cannot expect those who deal with him to ignore childish behaviour because of that.

 

But no, i was speaking of noble intentions. Rand had no higher mission behind his reaction. He was lashing out because a bunch of people didn't like him.

 

I have to dispute you on this one point. They do not lose respect for him when he throws his tantrums, as you call them, because they fear him and know his value in the fight against the shadow. His rage is mainly due to the inability of people to follow orders when he's right and so he gets mad and I would as well. If I am going to sacrifice my life to give the world a small chance to be safe then I would want people to at least listen to me so that I can make sure I do save as much of the world as possible. And he does lose respect in the eyes of the world when Cadsuane calls him to account.

 

Well A), chances are you arn't going to save the world. Sorry, but the whole instinctive reaction thing doesn't actually work in real life. B) I'm sorry, but not even Rand thinks that he is right in the situation in Tear... C) Rand lost respect in my eyes, and chances are given the people there, he lost respect in others eyes. They may not call him on it, but acting like a child is acting like a child.

 

 

 

Point being it makes people lose respect for you and see you as more of a normal person. Whereas someone would have listened unquestionably before witnessing such an act they would question you now. In the coming battle Rand needs unflinching devotion and obedience to win and with Cadsuane he is losing that gradually.

 

Actually buddy, Rand needs to think before he acts. and as for obedience... please. Just look at the way he ignores Logain about Taim to guage how much he needs 'unflinching obedience'.

 

Oh, and by the by, you may want to study your bible.

 

He takes advice from those he trusts and respects but Cadsuane tries to bully him into how she wants him to act, and him being from the Two Rivers it isnt the best approach. I'm suprised that Rand hasn't seriously gone off the deep end against her and don't kid yourself Rand would win. Cadsuane has ter'angreal yeah but Rand can cut the flows of Saidar as they come at him as well. The battle between the two may last a long time but Rand would eventually come out on top.

 

Well... pretty much all i have to say to that is no. Cadsuane has battled more men who can channel then Rand has women. Her ter'angreal and angreal more then match Rand. Oh and btw, she can cut flows of saidin...

 

I mean really, what books have you been reading?

 

So what if Rand Al'thor has a few human faults.

 

What about Jesus, Jesus threw a tantrum and threw some tables about when a bunch of people where selling stuff in front of a temple! I don't see people saying Jesus was a child in need of discipline!

 

The point is, Rand Al'thor has suffered more hardship than even Jesus fricking Christ has. Respect? Definatly earned in his regard ten times over.

 

Actually they did. Tomas and Que both reprimanded Jesus at several times. Aside from which, aside from which, jesus was an elledged spiritual leader with no practical impact. Rand needs to physically save the world.

 

Aside from which, people have condemned Jesus over and over... they killed him after all.

 

I'm sorry... i wont address this, i majored in religion, and as people here will tell you, im fond of the jesus/rand debates... lets avoid.

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I wasn't trying to say going into a rage is a noble trait... I had origionally thought u where questiong his ability claim the title of Noble. Then when I realized you where actually saying Rand wasn't a noble individual that is what I am denying. Rand can throw a tantrum once and a while and still be a noble person.

 

I dont disagree... in fact i reguard Rand as very much the classic tragic hero' date=' but that being said you cannot expect those who deal with him to ignore childish behaviour because of that.[/i']

 

But no, i was speaking of noble intentions. Rand had no higher mission behind his reaction. He was lashing out because a bunch of people didn't like him.

I have to dispute you on this one point. They do not lose respect for him when he throws his tantrums, as you call them, because they fear him and know his value in the fight against the shadow. His rage is mainly due to the inability of people to follow orders when he's right and so he gets mad and I would as well. If I am going to sacrifice my life to give the world a small chance to be safe then I would want people to at least listen to me so that I can make sure I do save as much of the world as possible. And he does lose respect in the eyes of the world when Cadsuane calls him to account.

 

Well A), chances are you arn't going to save the world. Sorry, but the whole instinctive reaction thing doesn't actually work in real life. B) I'm sorry, but not even Rand thinks that he is right in the situation in Tear... C) Rand lost respect in my eyes, and chances are given the people there, he lost respect in others eyes. They may not call him on it, but acting like a child is acting like a child.

 

 

 

Point being it makes people lose respect for you and see you as more of a normal person. Whereas someone would have listened unquestionably before witnessing such an act they would question you now. In the coming battle Rand needs unflinching devotion and obedience to win and with Cadsuane he is losing that gradually.

 

Actually buddy, Rand needs to think before he acts. and as for obedience... please. Just look at the way he ignores Logain about Taim to guage how much he needs 'unflinching obedience'.

 

Oh, and by the by, you may want to study your bible.

 

He takes advice from those he trusts and respects but Cadsuane tries to bully him into how she wants him to act, and him being from the Two Rivers it isnt the best approach. I'm suprised that Rand hasn't seriously gone off the deep end against her and don't kid yourself Rand would win. Cadsuane has ter'angreal yeah but Rand can cut the flows of Saidar as they come at him as well. The battle between the two may last a long time but Rand would eventually come out on top.

 

Well... pretty much all i have to say to that is no. Cadsuane has battled more men who can channel then Rand has women. Her ter'angreal and angreal more then match Rand. Oh and btw, she can cut flows of saidin...

 

I mean really, what books have you been reading?

 

So what if Rand Al'thor has a few human faults.

 

What about Jesus, Jesus threw a tantrum and threw some tables about when a bunch of people where selling stuff in front of a temple! I don't see people saying Jesus was a child in need of discipline!

 

The point is, Rand Al'thor has suffered more hardship than even Jesus fricking Christ has. Respect? Definatly earned in his regard ten times over.

 

Actually they did. Tomas and Que both reprimanded Jesus at several times. Aside from which, aside from which, jesus was an elledged spiritual leader with no practical impact. Rand needs to physically save the world.

 

Aside from which, people have condemned Jesus over and over... they killed him after all.

 

I'm sorry... i wont address this, i majored in religion, and as people here will tell you, im fond of the jesus/rand debates... lets avoid.

 

 

Actually seems like your trying to be condescending in your response.

 

A) I know I am not going to save the world it was just a way of stating my opinion and my ability to relate to Rand in this specific way.

 

B) I never said anything aout tear but can ya give me a quote so I can know exactly what your talking about. I'm pretty sure your talking about the AS bargiaining with the nobles but I want to be sure. If thats the case your right he does admit he's wrong.

 

C) He lost respect in your eyes? Okay...

 

 

Actually buddy, Rand needs to think before he acts. and as for obedience... please. Just look at the way he ignores Logain about Taim to guage how much he needs 'unflinching obedience'.

 

No point arguing. He has a lot on his plate he cant take time to think about everything if he did it would be well after TG when he finally gets around to doing something about anything.

 

 

Oh, and by the by, you may want to study your bible.

 

I have read my bible twice cant say it does much good. I don't believe in "God" so theres no spiritual advantage for me rereading a pointless book like the bible.

 

 

Well... pretty much all i have to say to that is no. Cadsuane has battled more men who can channel then Rand has women. Her ter'angreal and angreal more then match Rand. Oh and btw, she can cut flows of saidin...

 

I mean really, what books have you been reading?

 

Cadsuane can cut flows of Saidin, where did you see this as? I know her terangreal stops saidin from touching her but nothing else provides evidence that she can cut flows of saidin. In Winters heart she made a shield thats it she didn't face any forsaken personally. Also Rand and LTT are almost merged completely so you have to factor that in and the fact that he is as deadly with weapons and his hands as he is with saidin I personally believe he is more than a match for Cadsuane. I'm not going to argue the point though I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe this is purely speculation and unless RJ makes them face off we'll never know.

 

 

 

might be editing to add more soon

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Just a moment ... Did someone just "suggest" that if somehow Caduane and Rand were to fight ... that rand would die ? LOLOL ... Wow, for being so full of yourself with your "biblical" knowledge, answer me this ... Why do you believe the Creator would allow the Dragon Reborn to bee snuffed out by just another simple thread in his pattern ? At least Dark friends would have some excuse because theyare somewhat outside of the Creators sway. But Caduane ? Yeah ... I'm sure she could beat Lewis Therin in a battle of channeling ... He who was pretty much the greatest channeler of all time, he who was picked to LEAD the Aes Sedia while they were in their PRIME to LEAD them.

 

Btw, Jesus did through money lenders out of the temple ... And why ? Because here he was doing his best to cleanse the world of sin and there they were ... Committing sinful acts right infront of him. They were creating more problems for him, all the while he was trying to save them and everyone else ... Sound like someone else we know ? Who cares if he got angry ? He knew what was right, the same goes for Rand Al'Thor, and if they both didnt know what was right ... Then guess what, they wouldn't be doing what they are doing. Now, quit being so egotistic, it drives me nuts.

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Any respect Rand should have shown Aes Sedai was immediately thrown out the window when he was bonded by that biatch alanna.

 

as for cadsuane....

 

I dont really think she has any right to lecture Rand about how he should behave. I'd like to see what kind of sacrifices shes making that make her so special. She's suppose to die facing the DO in the LB right? She was kept locked in a chest and periodically tortured by a group of Aes Sedai right? She was illegally bonded by a male asha man right? No, she wasn't.

 

 

Just as a side note. I LOVE the way Aes Sedai get treated by the Wise Ones. Its a little taste of their own medicine

 

Oh, and the next time one of those things trys to get Mats medallion...I really think he should slap her, quite hard too.

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My take on this. The Aes Sedai have had a strangle hold on power for the last 3 thousand years and like anyone in power they don't want to give it up. Through that period they have gotten used to getting their way and believing they are always right. They have been used to being treated above normal humans.

 

The problem with this is the world is in a state of change. In my opinion Rand does need to show "some" Aes Sedai more respect as he is starting to get the same complex that he hates in the Aes Sedai. He is starting to think of himself as something other than human and this will be his downfall if he doesn't fix it.

 

He should be treating the Aes Sedai as equals, not defering to them as many Aes Sedai want but as equals. At the same time he should be treating them much like the Aiel chiefs "first amoungst equals" as this will help in the last battle if he has already developed a respectful relationship with the Aes Sedai. Rand's worst fault in his dealings with the Aes Sedai is he has been trying to treat them like nobles in the cities. Yes it has largely developed from how the Aes Sedai initially treated him, but at some point a true leader needs to step up and past those issues and lead. And you can't lead Aes Sedai dealing with them like pawns. You have to at least on the surface appear like you are dealing with equals.

 

At the same time "most" of the Aes Sedai need to take a new stance with Rand. They need to realise that Rand can not be manipulated to their own personal goals. They need to somehow discover that he is going to go to the last battle ready to fight for the light and die for the light. Lastly they need to stop trying to act moraly superior, and treat him how they treat other Aes Sedai, instead of the face they give to the public. They also need to trust in his abilities to lead them into the last battle instead of trying to subvert his efforts.

 

Really both sides are dealing with each other in the wrong way (even Cadsuane). Hopefully they get things sorted before it is too late. Basically cadsuane is trying to break Rand down so she can teach him to be more human again. However the little things about fusing over his clothing and the like is going a little too far, as is her attempts to manipulate many of his actions in reguards to policy. (For example Cad thinking to herself if she should let Rand make an alliance with the Seachan. It has nothing to do with her goals for rand, but still tries to meddle. Rand might of asked for her advise but it appears Cad tries to reason it past how it will help with the last battle).

 

That said for the most part how Cad acts is good for Rand, as it is slowly helping rand see the Aes Sedai as equals instead of something to avoid. Aside from cad, Nyv is the only Aes Sedai Rand trusts (Elyane doesn't count due to Rand trusting her for different reasons). Rand even begins to wonder if he can trust Egwene's motives. While some of Cad's requests are over the top for the most part they will help him as without changing he will not be able to truely lead in the last battle. Being powerful does not equate to being a good leader, and currently he hasn't shown the attributes of a good leader. Mat and Perrin can handle the general troops, but Rand needs to marshal the channelers in much the same way.

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Problem with that whole thing is ... They aren't his equals,(He is a general and they are simply ... soldiers) he is the Dragon Reborn, maybe he could treat their Leader, (when they acually choose just 1 ...), as a noble of slightly lesser standing. Aes Sedia aside from the Amryin or however you spell it, should pretty much just deffer to him automatically, unless they truly have a valid point (The problem is, they think that everything that pops into their heads are ... valid points, cough an example would be Joline -- One of Aes Sedia traveling with Mat). Personally, I think it would be better if the Black and White Tower would just ... merge and become 1. If that were to happen at least they'd have a hierarchy of power ...

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cadsuane is a bully she could talk to rand instead of belittleing him, and forcing him,

 

why cant anyone just talk to the man and guide him, instead of tryign to get their own way?

 

aes sedai- they were tlakign "we need to tie him to us we must guide his path"

 

yeah for their power. not for ur SOULS

 

(p.s. to sumone....YEAH I SAID UR I ALWAYS WILL)

 

i appreciate what cads doing. it is for the btter. but rand dosnt need to see the AS as equals THEY need to see HIM as an equal not a means to ean end

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I think it is very interesting (and one of Jordan's strongest talents as an author) that Moiraine was put before us as a character for us to hate for her arrogance, but in the end of it all--after her absence--we come to realize she was one of the wisest Aes Sedai out there if not the wisest.

 

After 11 books she is the only Aes Sedai to willingly and unconditionally swear fealty to Rand. Realizing that the best way to control and guide him is to remember how to control and guide Saidar.

 

Cadsuane is not even as wise as Moiraine in this respect. She is blemished by her centuries of life and believes she is due respect without first earning it. I agree with everything Luckers says except for one point. Cadsuane in her first meeting with Rand came onto his turf and intentionally provoked him. That is rude and inexcusable. For that one failing on her part all her other pretexts of "treating others as they deserve to be treated" go out the window. In her first meeting she did not treat Rand as he deserved to be treated by her. Any sense of balance on her part since then is still permanently skewed by her childish actions in that first meeting.

 

I never thought I'd say it, but I miss Moiraine!!

 

~Courtney

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oh no deary, moiraine i like.

 

YEAH I SAID IT. given my name and my intense hate for aes sedai and women of randland. her letetr to rand made me love her as i would a very dear friend. she actually was wilign to advise not bully.

 

she rox. (also her recitation of the fll of manatheren made me hooked on the series for as long as the wheel turns)

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Cadsuane is not there just to annoy Rand. If Rand just keeps shrugging off all his feelings and just pretending to be a as steady as a steel beam he is bound to break under too much preasure. He needs to use his feelings as a sheild, not a weakness. If he keeps that up he will lose his feelings alltogether and become everything he is fighting against. That is what Cadsuane made a deal with that Aiel woman to show to break Rand in order to help him learn.

 

P.S. i hope you guys don't think Moraine is out of the picture, i bet you guys $100 she is coming back from the land she and the forsaken went to

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i said i missed her. i can miss my dad if hes in korea, hes just away. not dead. lol (or ratehr was this was a while ago)

 

lol i know shes coming back. her and thom will make super smart talented channeling babies, and all will be good

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i said i missed her. i can miss my dad if hes in korea' date=' hes just away. not dead. lol (or ratehr was this was a while ago)

 

lol i know shes coming back. her and thom will make super smart talented channeling babies, and all will be good[/quote']

 

 

Super smart channeling babies :P LOL.

 

Of course Moiraine isn't gone it's said in book 11 she is alive and Min's viewings that Moiraine has something to do still means that she WILL be brought back.

 

Cadsuane isn't there JUST to annoy Rand we know that she's there to teach him but she's not going about it in a smart way. She tries to bully him where she should be trying to instruct him in a way more alike to a school counselor or a teacher that actually cares.

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omg, i wish u knew my tenth grade english teacher. mrs. lane. she would be the perfect teacher for randm cuz she was an amazing person, she was what cadsuane should be: rough teacher (i.e. school of hard knocks) but in a constructive and objective manner.

 

it seems lie cadsuane is tryign to make rand her bi.tch more than a good leader

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I agree with everything Luckers says except for one point. Cadsuane in her first meeting with Rand came onto his turf and intentionally provoked him. That is rude and inexcusable. For that one failing on her part all her other pretexts of "treating others as they deserve to be treated" go out the window. In her first meeting she did not treat Rand as he deserved to be treated by her. Any sense of balance on her part since then is still permanently skewed by her childish actions in that first meeting.

 

This is an important point I missed previously, Possibly the reason I just cannot tolerate Cadsuane is that my first impression of her was of a blind, arrogant, childish Aes Sedai with many of the flaws I saw in Elaida.

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Religious Example:Mary telling Jesus to pull up his robe and bend over in front of his disciples because he lost his temper with the Jews who didn't believe he was Gods son.

You mean...."He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy"

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So what if Rand Al'thor has a few human faults.

 

What about Jesus' date=' Jesus threw a tantrum and threw some tables about when a bunch of people where selling stuff in front of a temple! I don't see people saying Jesus was a child in need of discipline!

 

The point is, Rand Al'thor has suffered more hardship than even Jesus fricking Christ has. Respect? Definatly earned in his regard ten times over.[/quote']

 

Hmm.. I don't agree that Rand suffered more.

 

Well, I think that people tend to forget that Rand is in the position he is in because of the importance of every other person in the world.

 

He is there to save the world and the Wheel. Rand is not there to show everyone how strong he is and how noble. He is not even there to show how much he can suffer. In short: Rand must be the most selfless of all, not the one most entitled to pride. Pride is one of the things that is a true hero's downfall, and that's what Caddy is trying to help him with.

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I don't really think Rand is fatally Prideful, If Rand truly believes that he is better than other people to the exten that he completly discounts everyones counsel but his own. Yes we have a problem. He's not that bad, he has Pride but some Pride is good. He might even be a little too Prideful. His mental balance and complete lack of trust for those around him is the biggest problem.

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