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Just a little Respect!


Myyrth
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The approach Cadsuane is taking towards healing Rand is both blunt and unlikely to do anything more than drive her "patient" away from her.

 

She has hardly been blunt! In fact she has been pretty much anything but. We know that the "lesson" she thinks she needs to teach Rand is how to laugh again. Now has anything she said or done related to Rand laughing again? NO' date=' so not blunt! How is she driving him away? He's better behaved (sometimes) and he listens to her advice when she gives it. Is that worse then he treated her back when she first joined him??? NO, so she's not driving him away.

 

Seriously Cadsuane? Seriously now? During my last reading, it was my impression that many of his military plans and strategies where his own.

 

Rhuric, and Bashere have done most of his planning. Rand is a farmer where would he get knowledge that would exceed that of an Aiel clan chief or the commander of the military in Saldea?

 

He has been immmensly succesful' date=' binding entire nations to his will through more than just his name as the Dragon Reborn. Rand Al'thor has proven to be both a shrewd manipulater and general on equal to or on par with many great rulers of the day.[/quote']

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE point me to where he shrewdly manipulated nations? His bargain with the Sea Folk followed by his confrontation with the rebels (in Hidden's mark i believe) was stated as his being Ta'vren rather then him manipulating anyone. About being a general see above. What nation came to him not because he was the dragon but for some other reason? The closest would be the Aiel but their prophecy spoke of him, and he bore 2 of the Dragons that the clan chiefs get (except they get 1).

 

In fact after a certain point he was barely even following Moiraines advice anymore' date=' he revolutionized state support for the poor got trade running again in his conquered nations. With help he constructed the Legion of the Dragon and created the Asha'man.[/quote']

 

I remember him not following Morraine's advice for a bit there but then later made a deal with her that if she obeyed him he would listen to her advice. She did, and he listened....so not true that he didn't listen to him. He did get trade running again, and got support for the poor but that hardly counts for much since thats such a simple concept! The legion of the Dragon has NOTHING to do with him. All they are are a bunch of men who came to the black tower but couldn't channel or got burned out etc. They get sent to Bashere who trains them. If i remember correctly they aren't even the size of the Band of the Red Hand. As for the Ashaman, if it weren't for Taim coming to Rand, he wouldn't of started the Black Tower. Taim showing up gave him somebody who A) knew the weave for testing, and B) was knowledgable enough to teach others to channel. At that point in the story Taim/Rand are the only male channelers we know of who are alive(not counting the forsaken). So he again had nothing to do with the Ashaman.

 

Good god' date=' the list goes on. Rand Al'thor did these things. He's not merely a farmer with a fancy title and the ability to channel as you seem to think. Rand Al'thor defeated the Ever Victorious Army, not some general guiding his hand.[/quote']

 

I also recall he didn't much beat them through military might he beat them to a pulp with channelers. Not much of a general telling your Ashaman (who someone else trained to be weapons) to go out and wreak havoc. I also believe he went a little off the deepend and ended up frying one of his own Ashaman. As for the ever-victorous army. It was said that it wasn't that they didn't lose, but rather that when they lost they were excellent at learning why they lost and your tactics and then coming back and whooping your butt. So one victory against them counts for little.

 

Cadsuane expects to be obeyed' date=' maybe she doesn't care about bowing and scraping. Yet she expects when she tells someone to do something they do it.[/quote']

 

I don't believe she said she expected anyone to obey. She expects Rand to act like an adult and not to curse, or throw tantrums. She has yet to order Rand where to go or what to do, other then some simple manners. On one hand you say that Cadsuane DEMANDS people obey her and thats wrong even though she was the most powerful Aes Sedai in hundreds of years (until the wonder girls) and that some of her exploits are the closest thing to legend the Aes Sedai have, yet Rand SHOULD expect people to obey him because he's the Dragon Reborn.

Ummm....double standard?

 

If you ask me Cadsuane is the best Aes Sedai since Verin. She hasn't tried to capture him or bond him against his will or anything else crazy like many of the others did. She simply came to him and attached herself to him and asked to be his advisor.

She has been the most honest and upfront one of the lot yet!

 

The war at the end of the age of Legends wasn't won solely by male channelers. The bore might of been sealed by just men, but the war fought by both male and female channelers. If Rand thinks he's going to win TG without any Aes Sedai he's about as stupid as they come!

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Rhuric, and Bashere have done most of his planning. Rand is a farmer where would he get knowledge that would exceed that of an Aiel clan chief or the commander of the military in Saldea?

I'm going to assume you mean Rhuarc. He and Bashere planned the battles (afterall, Rand has no experience in that, and he knows it), but only after Rand decided where the armies were going to go. Deciding who to attack next is part of the tactic, and Rand has done a good job with that considering he grew up on a farm. In fact, some of Rand's first big decisions (taking Callandor, going to Rhuidean) turned out to be good ones, and he made those decisions from his own research. Nobody told him to do those things.

 

He did get trade running again, and got support for the poor but that hardly counts for much since thats such a simple concept!

Making the same laws apply to noble and peasants, sending grain and peacekeepers to Cairhien, and boosting trade don't count for much? Think about what you're saying, and consider whether or not you may be a bit biased. These concepts may be simple to those of us living in industrialized 21st century economies, but Rand is from a tiny, isolated farming community where there were no nobles, no wars, and "trade" consisted of selling wool and tabac to traveling merchants.

 

If i remember correctly they aren't even the size of the Band of the Red Hand. As for the Ashaman, if it weren't for Taim coming to Rand, he wouldn't of started the Black Tower. Taim showing up gave him somebody who A) knew the weave for testing, and B) was knowledgable enough to teach others to channel. At that point in the story Taim/Rand are the only male channelers we know of who are alive(not counting the forsaken). So he again had nothing to do with the Ashaman.

The Black Tower would not have grown to its current size without Taim, but without Rand's amnesty and desire for fairness for all male channelers, Taim would have been recaptured by the Saldeans before ever reaching "the farm". Also, even before Taim showed up, some men had turned up to join Rand. Again, I think you need to examine your bias. ;)

 

I also believe he went a little off the deepend and ended up frying one of his own Ashaman.

Have you forgotten Callandor's flaw? Rand did not know about it at that point in the story, but we, the readers, know about it now. It magnifies the taint, so any man who wields it directly is rather mad while doing so. Rand was not in full control of his mental capacities (just like when he tried to bring that girl back to life in the Stone of Tear), which is why he did what he did. It doesn't strengthen your argument to try using this against him.

 

So one victory against them counts for little.

You're doing it again ;) You find yourself forced to admit that Rand did something right, and immediately downplay it.

 

If Rand thinks he's going to win TG without any Aes Sedai he's about as stupid as they come!

Please point out where Rand said this, because I recall him saying the opposite in WH, that he'd been a fool for not letting the AS help all along. He has had a hard time trusting Aes Sedai, and for understandable reasons. The first Aes Sedai he met spent all of her time keeping information from him and trying to manipulate him. And once he finally was able to trust her, her last words to him were to not trust any Aes Sedai other than Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne. As in my last post, we have to look at who Rand's role models were.

 

And then, Moiraine's last words were re-enforced by Alanna's bond-raping of him, the Salidar AS's manipulation and lying, and by the Tower AS's kidnapping and torture. You see, just as Rand needs to earn the respect of those who follow him, the Aes Sedai need to re-earn his respect and trust. Face it...as a group, they have failed miserably.

 

And yet, despite all that, Rand still realized that he needed the Aes Sedai's support. It says a lot about both his sense of duty and his endurance that he does allow them to help now.

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I think you misinterpret my point. I am all for Rand, he's done a lot of stuff right. What i don't agree with is Myyrth's feelings that all these things Rand has done puts him on some pedastel that he gets to act like he's 5 years old and go nuts on people.

 

All i was trying to do was point out that myyrth's statements about Rand aren't wholly true in that he hasn't been some super awesome guy that has done all this amazing stuff.

 

It's the one problem i have with RJ's writing, his main character grates on my nerves so much that i'd rather read about Perrin being stupid then Rand throwing a tantrum.

 

And as an aside about Rand Drawing Callandor, and going to Rhuidean, unless i mistake myself it was Morraine who subtly guided him in that direction (at least thats how i read it). And secondly, Callandor enhanced the taint since when? Wasn't it's flaw that it didn't have the buffer against drawing to much of the power that the other angreal/sa'angreal had?

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Alright, can I at least get you to conceed that if he really was the dumb ignorant farmer's son you seem to think he is, not speaking about you Zardi, then he would have been meat in a Trolloc's pot long ago.

 

Perhaps the tactics of the battles are dictated by expireanced warriors and generals but the overall strategy of this war has been Rand's with the help of his advisors. And yes I do believe their are a few mentions about Rand gaining a competant grasp of Daes Da'mar in the books. Before the taint and the stress of his position began to take hold he was a very good people person able to inspire by his very nature. Also, while being Ta'veren has certaintly been a great boon to him some of those skills must be his.

 

We both have diffrent views on this, It perhaps bothers you that I put so much value in Rand's decisions and respect his accomplishments but I see all the things Rand has accomplished and realize I wouldn't be nearly as strong or resourceful as he has been even with my 21's century education.

 

I would probably have died at Whitebridge with a Myrdraal sword in my stomach honestly!

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Korlaf - Moiraine was completely and utterly against both. She didn't think he was ready to go get Callandor, and she interpreted the passage in the prophecies to mean he should invade Illian and take out Sammael right away, and per her own POV thought him going off to Rhuidean was the stupidest possible thing he could have done. Probably a good thing she wasn't right all the time.

 

And not to entirely excuse Rand's behavior, but being tasked with saving the world and then having everybody who is supposed to be helping him consistently (and sometimes intentionally - Weiramon!) mess things up or get in the way, that's something that would make anybody understandably irritable. That stupid commercial with all the chimpanzees in business suits waving laser pointers at the peon making a presentation springs to mind.

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Cadsuane can get on my nerves too, but she comes off meaning well. She's extremely old, so she can't help but look and treat people as children when they deserve it (nor do I believe that Rand acts like a child). All togeather, she's trying to help Rand, nor is she doing it to try to get some "advantage" politcally. She knows Rand could squash her like a bug, and she also knows that he "needs" her to teach him something. She is doing what she's ment to do, simple as that.

 

However, if you can't stand Cadsuane, how can you stand Egwene? She believes she should put Rand in his "place", and we've already been shown by one of her visions that she is going to. She is extremely condesending, and yet she's done ABSOLUTELY nothing compaired to him. Her pride in how she stands getting "spanked" in the tower makes me sick. Rand could take all of that and barley notice .... She has no idea of what Rand has been through, and yet she believes that somehow she is his equal. I wish he would put her in her place fast, and shut her up for good. I get tired of reading passages all about her ignorance. This is all kind of sad, I use to like Egwene in the first book. To me, she has simply come off as selfish, arrogent, and ignorant.

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However' date=' if you can't stand Cadsuane, how can you stand Egwene? She believes she should put Rand in his "place", and we've already been shown by one of her visions that she is going to.[/quote']

 

Getting off topic, but Rand can "face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger", no matter who she may be, and it says nothing about him giving a fetid dingo's kidney. He's pretty accustomed by now to having Egwene yell at him.

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I think you misinterpret my point. I am all for Rand, he's done a lot of stuff right. What i don't agree with is Myyrth's feelings that all these things Rand has done puts him on some pedastel that he gets to act like he's 5 years old and go nuts on people.

I don't agree with Myyrth's pedestal, and I don't like Rand's tantrums either. However, your post seemed extremely biased in the opposite direction, as if you were trying to belittle every good thing Rand has ever done.

 

And secondly, Callandor enhanced the taint since when? Wasn't it's flaw that it didn't have the buffer against drawing to much of the power that the other angreal/sa'angreal had?

That's one of the things Cadsuane tells him about it. I don't have time to get the quote now, but I'll try to remember to do so tomorrow.

 

I do wonder what in the world Egwene is going to yell at Rand about. What has he done lately that would make her mad? She can be quite unreasonable when it comes to Rand, but unless she plans to berate him about his manners just like Caddyshack does, she would have to manufacture something to be mad at. Am I forgetting about something? :?

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That's one of the things Cadsuane tells him about it. I don't have time to get the quote now, but I'll try to remember to do so tomorrow.

 

Its in The Path of Daggers, chapter 27. She says:

 

"It is flawed," she [Cadsuane] replied curtly, "lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind."

 

Evidence of this was seen 3 chapters earlier, when, using Callandor in his battle with the Seanchan, Rand went full out bonkers and screamed the classic:

 

"Come against me if you dare! I am the storm! Come if you dare, Shai'tan! I am the Dragon Reborn!"

 

All the while slaughtering indiscriminately in every direction, his own people as well as his enemies.

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Guest cwestervelt
That's one of the things Cadsuane tells him about it. I don't have time to get the quote now' date=' but I'll try to remember to do so tomorrow. [/quote']

 

Its in The Path of Daggers, chapter 27. She says:

 

"It is flawed," she [Cadsuane] replied curtly, "lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind."

 

Evidence of this was seen 3 chapters earlier, when, using Callandor in his battle with the Seanchan, Rand went full out bonkers and screamed the classic:

 

"Come against me if you dare! I am the storm! Come if you dare, Shai'tan! I am the Dragon Reborn!"

 

All the while slaughtering indiscriminately in every direction, his own people as well as his enemies.

 

We also saw it happen way back in The Shadow Rising but we didn't realize what was actually happenning at the time. There are a couple times in The Fires of Heaven where he thinks about Callandor and is afraid of how he felt when using it in The Shadow Rising.

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Zardi Said:

 

One major cause of his mental problems (aside from LTT) was his kidnapping, and you can hardly blame him for that. Anyone who is kidnapped and tortured comes away with mental scars which often cannot be resolved without professional help. Rand didn't have the benefit of a good psychiatrist, and yet you somehow expect him to handle all of his hardships in a healthy way. I don't see how this makes any sense at all.

 

I didn't expect him to get well on his own, but he could have. You don't need psychiatrists for everything, there are many things that you can do on your own.

 

 

Zardi said:

Furthermore, look who Rand's role models were. Lan and Moiraine -- as far as Rand saw -- rarely expressed any emotion, and when they actually did, they stamped it out as soon as possible. After having this sort of behavior modeled to him, you expect him to realize that it is unhealthy to block out his emotions? Of course, the difference with Moiraine and Lan is that they manage to control their emotions while being strong, rather than suppressing them and turning hard. However, Rand doesn't have the benefit of looking inside their heads as we do, so all he sees is that two people he respects suppress their emotions when things get rough. It is not surprising that he thinks this is the right way to handle his pain.

 

Yes well....I haven't exactly dug that deep :P but "his rolemodels" this is purely speculation. It is very likely that it's true but you can't base theories on that IMO.

 

And can someone please explain to me where he is supposed to get these shrewd manipulation skills other than just being ta'veren? Moiraine and Thom often played Daes Da'mar for him. E.G. In the Shadow Rising Thom told him where to go and when. To control the High lords in Tear

 

And of course Rand decides which places they are to attack. No one else can make that decision, he's in charge. He isn't a great general exactly like Bashere and Mat so they do most of the planing for him ofc.

 

I do agree with his decisions aobut getting Callandor and going to Rhuidean. Rand's a smart guy there's no escaping that. He just has his flaws as the rest of us (tantrums and such).

 

P.S. I always feel like him forgetting or missing something when I post here :P. And usually it's because I am......

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Guest Fire Lord

Rand is my favorite character, so read this at your own risk.

 

None of us, and I mean none can fully understand how Rand feels (If you forget for one moment he is a book character, that is).

For Pete's sake, he is human, and all humans have good and bad qualities. I'm not saying to ignore them in his case, no. But he has every right to be respected, and to expect others to obey him.

 

Someone said something about earning respect. Aes Sedai consider themselves superior to anyone, peasant or noble, save perhaps queens and kings,and I would say they consider themselves their equals. They expect people to respect them, if not grovel before them, and to hop when they say "hop". Elyane had the attention and her way with the borderlands rulers, when she is but a girl. She used the Aes Sedai stuff.

Talk about respect. Why does anyone respect Aes Sedai? Not because they have earned that respect, in my view. Simply because they can channel. Look at how the Asha'man behave now, superior to the common lot of people.

 

Feel free to dispute it, but I consider Rand superior to any king or queen, name them. Not superior in the sense that he is a superior human being, but that his duty is far greater than any king or queen's. Thus he commands more respect. In my view, again.

Anyone who advances the fact that he is only a shepherd, I'll point to you that he was brought up as a shepherd, but he is a prince by birth. The man hasn't even sought to ask for respect or to order people around using that.

 

Frankly, you talk about tantrums, is that when he meets with those rebels in KoD? I had the impression Cadsuane used the power on him because he used the "bloody" word. I can't remember any other, so please point some other examples to me?

The same goes for what you call whinning. If I faced the same fate he faces, I would think about it almost constantly.

 

Manners, manners. I don't think Rand has forgotten them. You say Cadsuane doesn't suffer fools. Rand carries the world on his shoulders, and I'ven't seen him with selfish goals so far. Has it occured to you that he may see those among his supposed followers who pursue their own goals as acting the fool when they should know better, with the Last Battle looming?

 

Frankly, I'd be pretty pissed off in his place. Most people I know have a temper, and they give in from time to time. Perhaps Rand doesn't have full control of his, but I don't think he goes balistic every time something doesn't go the way he wants. And when he does, I think it's because he is frustrated; he wants whatever is better for the world. That in my view counts better than considering it childish. I see it as human. And I would rather go balistic than stay as cold as a snake.

 

I'm out of time, but I'm not finished. I avoided Cadsuane. While I respect her, I'd have to say some nasty things about her attitude. Better than most Aes Sedai's, but still intent on manipulating people, Rand included, as she sees it fit.

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Now thats understanding a character IMO. TY Fire Lord for articulating what i've been trying to say all along.

 

If I try and look through Cadsuanes eyes and see the world as she must see it, I just see an Aes Sedai who's lived longer commands more respect and has her own ideas about what must be done conserning the Dragon Reborn.

 

Yet, it's impossible for me to truly look through Rand's eyes. His expireances in such a short time would rival Cadsuanes i'd almost say.

 

Also, we don't get huffy when Kings or Queens order people around in WoT. They where born to their titles just as much as Rand was born to his destiny as the DR.

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Feel free to dispute it, but I consider Rand superior to any king or queen, name them. Not superior in the sense that he is a superior human being, but that his duty is far greater than any king or queen's. Thus he commands more respect. In my view, again.

 

I'll take you on your offer :P

 

He is superior to kings and queens and even the Empress of seanchen herself who comands more land than him. That doesn't mean he's entitled to respect. Many people with high positions have to earn their peers and followers respect. Like the woman who runs the palace in Caemlyn. She has been there for ages (not literally) but she can say almost anything she wants to Elayne and she doesn't respect her (IF she does. It doesn't really matter this is really a hypothetical kinda thing)because she is the queen of Andor but because Elayne has earned her respect through action.

 

Now don't misunderstand this :P. I'm not saying Rand hasn't earned my respect or many other peoples. I'm just saying that you have to earn respect, no matter your social position.

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:? Okay, so this entire time we where talking about how Rand deserves this respect. I never once mentioned that he deserved respect because of his title as the DR, in fact I made constant mention to the deeds he had done to earn his respect. In fact I would say the fact that he is fulfilling or trying his hardest to fulfill the difficult duty of being the Dragon Reborn has earned him the respect to go with his fancyt title.

 

All this time you've been argueing 'against' me sort of, which would imply you thought Rand hadn't earned any respect at all. Which is what aggravated me to begin with. Considering you where taking an opposing viewpoint, you've throughly confused me.

 

I call a draw, since it seems this entire time neither of us was actually argueing against the other and we do in fact agree on the major point. That rand really does deserve...

 

Just a little Respect.

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Feel free to dispute it' date=' but I consider Rand superior to any king or queen, name them. Not superior in the sense that he is a superior human being, but that his duty is far greater than any king or queen's. Thus he commands more respect. In my view, again.[/quote']

 

I'll take you on your offer :P

 

He is superior to kings and queens and even the Empress of seanchen herself who comands more land than him. That doesn't mean he's entitled to respect. Many people with high positions have to earn their peers and followers respect. Like the woman who runs the palace in Caemlyn. She has been there for ages (not literally) but she can say almost anything she wants to Elayne and she doesn't respect her (IF she does. It doesn't really matter this is really a hypothetical kinda thing)because she is the queen of Andor but because Elayne has earned her respect through action.

 

Now don't misunderstand this :P. I'm not saying Rand hasn't earned my respect or many other peoples. I'm just saying that you have to earn respect, no matter your social position.

 

Not necessarily. The Queen of England case in point.

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To my understanding, the Queen of England doesn't actually have that much law-making power. If that is the case, it's not really a good counterexample. If I'm wrong, please do correct me :)

 

I didn't expect him to get well on his own, but he could have. You don't need psychiatrists for everything, there are many things that you can do on your own.

Some people can deal with it on their own. Some, not all. If everyone could, we'd have no need for psychiatrists. This isn't an everyday, mild case of bullying we're talking about. This is a young guy who believes he's doomed to die for a world full of people who would rather see him dead, and then gets kidnapped and tortured.

 

Yes well....I haven't exactly dug that deep Razz but "his rolemodels" this is purely speculation. It is very likely that it's true but you can't base theories on that IMO.

I can't analyze a character's behavior based on character interactions in the book? :? It's a fact that Lan and Moiraine outwardly appear to block out all emotion. It is a fact that Rand admires them both. It is a fact that Rand now blocks out emotion as he thought he saw Lan and Moiraine doing. How is it "pure speculation" to see a connection there?

 

I have more to respond to, but I'm going to be late for class, so I'll do it later :P

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Can I ask a question first? I can't recall, but isn't one of Cadsuane's hair ter-angreal's a weave-blocking one, ala Mat's foxhead?

 

I can wholeheartedly agree with the anti-Cadsuane sentiment, as I've said before. I guess RJ did a good job in creating/writing her; I hardly ever feel actual strong emotions for a fictional character, and never this strong a hate :lol:

 

I just can't stand the need to goad Rand. Sure, call him 'boy' all you want, give him your "I've been around so long blahblah I've spanked kings yadayada" crap all you want...but where's the good in provoking outburts from him in front of people? Yes, Cadsuance, I think the Aiel already know he's human, and I don't think his other followers really fear him any less after you give him you're little 'lessons'. It's just plain annoying to read. I actually looked forward to seeing her be unveiled as a darkfriend so we could see her die a slow, horrible death...which isn't likely at all now. Maybe Shaidar Haran can be induced to seek her out, and they can kill eachother off? Here's to hoping.

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Guest Fire Lord

Mercer wrote:

I just can't stand the need to goad Rand. Sure, call him 'boy' all you want, give him your "I've been around so long blahblah I've spanked kings yadayada" crap all you want...but where's the good in provoking outburts from him in front of people? Yes, Cadsuance, I think the Aiel already know he's human, and I don't think his other followers really fear him any less after you give him you're little 'lessons'. It's just plain annoying to read. I actually looked forward to seeing her be unveiled as a darkfriend so we could see her die a slow, horrible death...which isn't likely at all now. Maybe Shaidar Haran can be induced to seek her out, and they can kill eachother off? Here's to hoping.

 

My point. In book 7 or 8, Rand asks Cadsuane to attend him, and she refuses, saying that she's knitting or something. She sends a Sister, Daigan (sp) to say so. That Sister's attitude towards Rand is nothing but rotten and disdainful, and I don't think it was because he had Min with him at that time.

 

In book 9 I believe, just after Cadsuane slaps Rand, Alanna wants to do the same, if for personal reasons.

After what they have done to him, the Aes Sedai are the ones who should strive to gain Rand's respect and trust. To anyone who thinks Cadsuane's attitude doesn't do Rand any harm, clarify this for me please:

If she goes around slapping and switching him(with the Power) in front of other Aes Sedai, how does that do him any good? Were I an Aes Sedai, seeing Rand treated so would lower my esteem for him rather dramatically. And from there, you expect him to try to regain that lost respect in their eyes. See the irony?

 

I can only shake my head.

 

Telcar wrote:

Quote:

 

 

Feel free to dispute it, but I consider Rand superior to any king or queen, name them. Not superior in the sense that he is a superior human being, but that his duty is far greater than any king or queen's. Thus he commands more respect. In my view, again.

 

 

I'll take you on your offer

 

He is superior to kings and queens and even the Empress of seanchen herself who comands more land than him. That doesn't mean he's entitled to respect. Many people with high positions have to earn their peers and followers respect. Like the woman who runs the palace in Caemlyn. She has been there for ages (not literally) but she can say almost anything she wants to Elayne and she doesn't respect her (IF she does. It doesn't really matter this is really a hypothetical kinda thing)because she is the queen of Andor but because Elayne has earned her respect through action.

 

Now don't misunderstand this . I'm not saying Rand hasn't earned my respect or many other peoples. I'm just saying that you have to earn respect, no matter your social position.

 

I agree with you that you have to earn respect, however I'll refer you to my earlier post. I gave the Aes Sedai example. They expect to be respected, just because they are Aes Sedai. Any queen or king expect that same respect because they are just that.

 

An Aes Sedai who has gained the shawl today will be expecting you to bow and scrap before her and you will. How has she earned that respect you're giving her in your eyes? Is it so difficult to expect that Rand should get at least as much?

 

Cadsuane doesn't suffer fools. Is Rand the only one acting like one in her entourage? I'ven't seen her slap anyone else. I just see no justification for her methods. He is a grown man, and no matter who you're or that you're 200 years old, give him that respect he deserves as a man.

 

Hmm, or could it be that Rand is one of the very few people-Sorilea being one, and possibly Verin-who is not impressed by her legendary status?

 

Myyrth wrote:

If I try and look through Cadsuanes eyes and see the world as she must see it, I just see an Aes Sedai who's lived longer commands more respect and has her own ideas about what must be done conserning the Dragon Reborn.

 

Right. People have suggested that she's loosely attached to the Tower, but I'll say this. She's been Aes Sedai for that long, she's one to the core. She'll use him until his ears fall off, and how she sees it fit. How she knows what's better for him, don't ask me. I would say Rand has a clearer idea of Tarmon Gai'don (sp)than she does. I honestly don't see how specifically her experience applies to fighting the shadow. Verin or Moiraine could advise Rand as well.

 

Also, we don't get huffy when Kings or Queens order people around in WoT. They where born to their titles just as much as Rand was born to his destiny as the DR.

 

The same here. How difficult it is to understand that Rand is just not any man, but the Dragon Reborn and thus deserves that respect whether he has earned it or not, I don't know. Mind you, he has earned it.

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Way I see it, is Cadsuane seems to think (other than Min's viewing, which must have stuck her chin up another dozen degrees) she is important in some way because of having dealt with other male channelers...yet, I haven't seen that experience affecting his 'madness' or OP sickness at all. Matter of fact, she isn't (or one like her) mentioned at all in the prophecies, and hasn't done a damn thing on the larger scale to work towards Tarmon Gaidon before she saunters in and assumes she's the one to guide him. Which makes me think, screw it Rand, balefire her. :lol:

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Cadsuane thinks she is important merely because she knows that if she chooses to do a thing, or have a thing come to be, it stands a high chance of coming to be. And she has good reason to think so, for whatever you say about the woman, she does have power, both in the physical sense, and the political and social sense. Her ability to bring her will to bear successfully makes her a player in the game.

 

If she goes around slapping and switching him(with the Power) in front of other Aes Sedai, how does that do him any good? Were I an Aes Sedai, seeing Rand treated so would lower my esteem for him rather dramatically. And from there, you expect him to try to regain that lost respect in their eyes. See the irony?

 

Why should she care if they respect him? She cares about wether he is a good leader for the light, and what she is doing IS important to fixing whats wrong with his nature. By not allowing him to simply throw his weight around and bully his way through everything, she is teaching him both control and the ability to gain what he needs through more subtle methods. What she is doing is incredibly important for him.

 

Also... how was anything you said ironic?

 

I agree with you that you have to earn respect, however I'll refer you to my earlier post. I gave the Aes Sedai example. They expect to be respected, just because they are Aes Sedai. Any queen or king expect that same respect because they are just that.

 

Agreed. And RJ has pulled Aes Sedai up on that. Kings and Queens too. And now, apparently, Dragons.

 

An Aes Sedai who has gained the shawl today will be expecting you to bow and scrap before her and you will. How has she earned that respect you're giving her in your eyes? Is it so difficult to expect that Rand should get at least as much?

 

I'm sorry... is your argument that Rand deserves respect because Aes Sedai get it when they dont deserve it?

 

Strange.

 

Cadsuane doesn't suffer fools. Is Rand the only one acting like one in her entourage? I'ven't seen her slap anyone else. I just see no justification for her methods. He is a grown man, and no matter who you're or that you're 200 years old, give him that respect he deserves as a man.

 

Hmm, or could it be that Rand is one of the very few people-Sorilea being one, and possibly Verin-who is not impressed by her legendary status?

 

No, it couldn't be that, because she has a tendency to respect those that act like adults around her. Notice she respects both Verin and Sorilea. But Rand acts like a petulant child around her, getting upset because she doesn't bow to his every whim simply because of who he is. So she treats him like a child... and rightly so.

 

Men don't deserve respect simply for being men (which in truth, Rand isn't really. There is a whole lot of stunted psychological development there... with just cause) anymore then Aes Sedai deserve respect simply for being Aes Sedai.

 

Right. People have suggested that she's loosely attached to the Tower, but I'll say this. She's been Aes Sedai for that long, she's one to the core. She'll use him until his ears fall off, and how she sees it fit. How she knows what's better for him, don't ask me. I would say Rand has a clearer idea of Tarmon Gai'don (sp)than she does. I honestly don't see how specifically her experience applies to fighting the shadow. Verin or Moiraine could advise Rand as well.

 

Well firstly she hasn't made any attempt to influence his plans for Tarmon Gai'don, or anything else for that matter. She hasn't tried to manipulate him or 'use him until his ears fall off'. When he's asked her advice, she's given it, and when he's needed her help, she's given that too. With no attempt to try and take over, or subvert his plans or anything else. So im not really sure where all this using him for Aes Sedai purposes things comes from.

 

As for how she knows how to help him... she has percieved a fault in him, and since no one else was paying attention to it, she decided to address it. It's as simple as that.

 

The same here. How difficult it is to understand that Rand is just not any man, but the Dragon Reborn and thus deserves that respect whether he has earned it or not, I don't know. Mind you, he has earned it.

 

No one deserves to be respected out of hand, even if they are respectable. If Buddha walked up to me an started throwing a tantrum about how he could 'close his fist and crush me' and so on and so forth, then i wouldn't give him any respect. Same with Jesus, or, in our fictional little world, the Dragon.

 

But push come to shove, Cadsuane has helped Rand when he needed it. Given counsel unreservedly when he asked. She has never tried to co-opt command from him, or manipulate his plans, or alter them to fit her own. All that she has done is refused to pander to his ego, and refused to let slide when he is action like a fool simply because of who he is.

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The problem is that they aren't treating Rand with respect and he HAS earned it.

 

If anyone at all in RJ's world deserves respect it's Rand Al'thor. The fact that he's actually fought to fulfill his destiny as the Dragon Reborn makes him deserving of respect. He could have run away for fought it, but he left his family and friends to protect them to go on a dangerous flight from monsters and beasts at the beckoning of a mysterious Aes Sedai.

 

Everything he's done has been for others, he has earned respect. The problem is that he isn't recieving it and it's hampering his plans for Tarmon Gaidin, i'd be pissed too.

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Why should she care if they respect him? She cares about wether he is a good leader for the light' date=' and what she is doing IS important to fixing whats wrong with his nature. By not allowing him to simply throw his weight around and bully his way through everything, she is teaching him both control and the ability to gain what he needs through more subtle methods. What she is doing is incredibly important for him.

[/quote']

Who is she to judge what kind of leader he is, is what I mean. He has done everything, everything to do with taking control of forsaken-controlled nations, leading the defense agains the Seanchan, setting plans for the betterment of the the nations during and after Tarmon Gaidon alone. I fail to see what she has taught him. He still does things his way, making his own decisions. She really hasn't altered his thinking...she's chastised him for bad language.

 

The only really useful things I can see she has done is in Knife of Dreams, revealing Semirhage, defending him in the cleansing, and keeping some of those Aes Sedai in line. Subtlety? I believe his manipulation of the nobles in Tear and Cairhien have been his doing and idea. Sure, maybe later she'll teach him something about himself that's important, but up until now she really hasn't. The very idea that she can judge a preordained and prophesized person as a good leader or not, as if there was a damn choice in the matter, someone who has done ten times what she has in a years time, is laughable. Verin has done more than her. I really don't care that she's in the story. But the idea that she is doing something for Rand other than what he asks her to do (the three things I mentioned before) is...overenthusiastic. I've yet to be impressed. Even the way she was introduced into the series ("Tada! here's a really old and really powerful Aes Sedai out of nowhere with some really powerful Ter-Angreal!") is fairly weak.

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Hmmm, I have to say...I don't like Cadsuane but I do respect her. She has earned that much from me. However, her attitude at times annoys me when she is dealing with Rand or Nynaeve. It's as if she knows who she is and is ready to use that to be in complete control of a situation. She subtly intimidates people, like Nyn, and they get out of her way. Still, I think she has earned that right in a way. See, it goes back to me not liking her but respecting her. She doesn't tolerate foolishness and...I dunno, I can't think right now. I'll get back to this thread when I can actually word my thoughts again =]

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