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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Dagon Thyne

Did they ever explain how Olver was able to sound the horn?

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I could have missed it, but I do not remember anything that explained the change.  Mat was still alive at the end, and the last time I checked the only time someone other than the original sounder may sound the horn, and it will work, is if the original sounder were dead.  Was it some connection between Mat and Olver? 

 

Was this just an unexplained rewrite?  Or was there something in the series that explained how Olver could sound it with Mat still alive? 

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Mat died and was brought back to life via CPR when he was hung at Rhudean- Spoiler notice might be nice in the title

This is a spoiler sub forum dude, Hence why it's a protected forum, and clearly states that it is meant for discussing spoilers. 

Edited by Dagon Thyne

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I'm pretty sure it was that the horn was unbound from Mat when Rahvin actually killed Mat and then Rand balefired Rahvin.  At least, the Heroes seem to imply so when Mat talks to them.

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I'd tend to go with the the death at Rhudean.  When he was killed by Rhavin he came back because Rhavin was balefired.  This undid Rhavin's actions so it was like Mat was never killed at this time and therefore would never have been detached from the Horn. 

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I'd tend to go with the the death at Rhudean.  When he was killed by Rhavin he came back because Rhavin was balefired.  This undid Rhavin's actions so it was like Mat was never killed at this time and therefore would never have been detached from the Horn. 

 

He did not die at Rhuidean. Per RJ it was when Rahvin killed him in Caemlyn:

 

 

Interview: Apr 5th, 1996  Robert Jordan

Mat's amulet blocks both saidin and saidar. Jordan answered this one straight-out when asked. He pointed out that the amulet only blocks actual weavings of the One Power, not the physical effects that could be caused by a weaving. For example, Elayne was able to use the One Power to hurl a rock at Mat. Rahvin was able to create a bolt of lightning which struck Mat. (Jordan noted that Mat's death by lightning and subsequent undoing of his death when Rand balefired Rahvin, fulfills a prophecy about living, dying, and then living again.)

 
Interview: Apr 5th, 1996 Question
When did Mat die and live again?
Robert Jordan

He said something that implied that the die and live again prophecy-fulfillment was the lightning incident in The Fires of Heaven, and not the hanging incident in The Shadow Rising. I was always sure it was the other way around.

 

 

 

Interview: Jan 16th, 2003Tim Kington
My friend Josh and I had been talking about how Rand and Mat spent a week in Rhuidean, and so he asked how long Mat was hanging.
Robert Jordan

Long enough.

JOSH

Long enough for what?

ROBERT JORDAN

Long enough to be ALMOST dead.

 

 

Edited by Suttree

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The RJ quotes are unnecessary.

The answer is given plain as day in the book when Mat is told it wasn't Rhuidean, that it was a death LTT saved him from that he doesn't even remember.

Which can only be Rahvin.  

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I'm pretty sure it was that the horn was unbound from Mat when Rahvin actually killed Mat and then Rand balefired Rahvin.  At least, the Heroes seem to imply so when Mat talks to them.

But balefire erased the act of killing him.  It never happened.  That is the nature of balefire. 

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I'd tend to go with the the death at Rhudean.  When he was killed by Rhavin he came back because Rhavin was balefired.  This undid Rhavin's actions so it was like Mat was never killed at this time and therefore would never have been detached from the Horn. 

 

 

I would think that would be it.  It would have made more sense for Mat to have died temporarily from being hung, and Rand resuscitated him. 

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I'm pretty sure it was that the horn was unbound from Mat when Rahvin actually killed Mat and then Rand balefired Rahvin.  At least, the Heroes seem to imply so when Mat talks to them.

But balefire erased the act of killing him.  It never happened.  That is the nature of balefire. 

 

 

That's not exactly the way it works.

Try searching for any of the many, usually long discussions about Nyn in the boat that Moggy Balefired a hole in.

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@Dagon

 

Both the books and author quotes explicitly state otherwise. Here is yet another quote...

 

 

Interview: Apr 15th, 2013
Reddit AMA 2013 (Verbatim)
Shillster ()
Why did Mat's death break the bond with the Horn when his death was reversed with balefire? Wouldn't it also reverse the breaking of the bond?
Brandon Sanderson
This is one where I just let Team Jordan lead. They told me why the bond had been broken, and that the other death didn't count...
Edited by Suttree

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I'm pretty sure it was that the horn was unbound from Mat when Rahvin actually killed Mat and then Rand balefired Rahvin.  At least, the Heroes seem to imply so when Mat talks to them.

But balefire erased the act of killing him.  It never happened.  That is the nature of balefire. 

 

 

That's not exactly the way it works.

Try searching for any of the many, usually long discussions about Nyn in the boat that Moggy Balefired a hole in.

 

 

 

from what I read in the books, it burns a person's thread from the pattern so that anything the person did until the point that the burning stops is erased from existence.  Though I suppose the fact that the person who uses the balefire, and the revived person both remember the original timeline means something too. 

Edited by Dagon Thyne

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tSR

 


"To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!"

Additionally the 'part of what was' makes more sense regarding balefire than a time linear death

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tSR

 

"To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!"

Additionally the 'part of what was' makes more sense regarding balefire than a time linear death

 

Yup.

 

Especially compelling when we consider that a time linear death never actually took place. There was no death in Rhuidean.

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Live once more a part of once was = memories seems best to me. Nothing important was mentioned about Mat in the Caemlyn fight, and while it's a good assumption that Mat does something cool/important in any fight, it's still an assumption.

 

Yah, die and live again or break the horn connection doesn't seem too likely from whatever first aid with nothing but the clothes on his back Rand can provide (at this point doubtful he'd channel without his knowledge). But this is still metaphysical world building stuff we don't know anything about, and we don't know how consistent this aspect of the horn is with any other mystical stuff we don't know anything about...

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@Dagon

 

Both the books and author quotes explicitly state otherwise. Here is yet another quote...

 

 

Interview: Apr 15th, 2013
Reddit AMA 2013 (Verbatim)
Shillster ()
Why did Mat's death break the bond with the Horn when his death was reversed with balefire? Wouldn't it also reverse the breaking of the bond?
Brandon Sanderson
This is one where I just let Team Jordan lead. They told me why the bond had been broken, and that the other death didn't count...

 

It would have made more sense if it had happened when Mat was hung.  He died and Rand got his heart started again.  Having it happen with balefire just raises too many questions, such as what was it that kept the breaking of the bond from being erased from existance along with Mat's death.  I suppose it explained that the horn exists outside of time, and the bond breaking can not be reversed by balefire, but it still would be much easier to link it to him being hung. 

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I don't care what manure we get fed...I will ALWAYS believe RJ intended for Mat to still be the one at the end of the day to blow that damned old horn...having Olver be the one to do so just screams like one of those things [removed] thought would be a ''neat'' plot ''twist.''

 

 

 - Fish

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
no need for that kind of attack

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I don't care what manure we get fed...I will ALWAYS believe RJ intended for Mat to still be the one at the end of the day to blow that damned old horn...having Olver be the one to do so just screams like one of those things Mr Sandersin thought would be a ''neat'' plot ''twist.''

 

 

 - Fish

 

Olver sought out adventures. Mat's goal is to live a responsibility free life. It's better for Mat not to be the sounder. 

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Interesting outlook, Goldeneyes...Mat kept trying to recapture his youth and every attempt put him one step closer to a ''boring'' life...Mat, his thoughts, words and actions always so in contrast to one another, lol...gotta love him.

 

What was weird was, Brandon's handling of Mat was *far* from the thing that bothered me most about his stewardship of the final volumes. No, it was what looked like attempts to appease to or gratify the wishes of fans by making odd, abrubt changes for no apparent reason...if Mr Panderson had just stuck to his guns, and RJ's established continuity, I could have forgiven much more in the very end.

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King

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I don't care what manure we get fed...I will ALWAYS believe RJ intended for Mat to still be the one at the end of the day to blow that damned old horn...having Olver be the one to do so just screams like one of those things [removed] thought would be a ''neat'' plot ''twist.''

 

 

 - Fish

 

Not sure about it necessarily being Olver, but when it happened it was a 'shoulda seen that coming' for me.  Otherwise what was the point of the die and live again bit?  It may be a plot twist, but it fits (imo)

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$anderson was like, "DUDE!!!...OMG....Harriet! YO!!! I was just playing some MAGIC! - The GATHERING and thought the coolest thing EVAR would be to have OLVER blow the horn like LOL!!!"

 

Thats how I heard it anyways...

 

 

Fish

 

p.s. i will soon be addng as an official SIG that AMOL is not canon...have been personally assurrd by mods thats a perfectably acceptable SIG ;)

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I'm pretty sure it was that the horn was unbound from Mat when Rahvin actually killed Mat and then Rand balefired Rahvin.  At least, the Heroes seem to imply so when Mat talks to them.

Yeah Hawkwing said his hanging wasn't it, that it was a time he couldn't remember, so was the balefire incident. 

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