"How Feminism Hurts Men"

[Elgee]

That's a very interesting article, Taltos! I wonder if there's any later research on the subject.

[Aiel Heart]

Ok I'm needing to stop and calm myself down at page 6 because while many things in this were likely to get me riled up (and did) abortion came up. So... This may be a little jumpy and scattered, but it's because I am quite emotionally charged.


I'll respond to the rest later, but here's my say for now. And before I begin, I feel I should give context. Some of you know that I have some kind of past. Here it is, albeit a brief version.

I was in a sexually abusive relationship in high school. I was made to feel like dirt, felt like an object or pet, and never felt like I was good enough to keep my ex's attention even though he got whatever he wanted from me. I was afraid to tell anyone about what was going on, and because of that...
I'm pretty sure I was pregnant but had an early miscarriage. That in itself was horrible for me. Abortion actually crossed my mind, even though I was already very pro-life at the time. There was just so much fear... Fear for myself and my future, fear for my child and the life she would live, fear of how may family and friends and classmates would treat me after that.... But far worse was when I realized there was no longer alive growing inside. Because amidst all of the deadness, amidst all of the pain and the ceaseless suffering... There was a life. There was the future. And now that miracle was gone.
I suffer from PTSD because of what I went through, and the anxiety and depression I already had got far worse. There was a while here that I was afraid of men, afraid of being alone with them. My church community helped immensely with my healing, and I learned again that not all men are bad, and there are some who will hold up me and my dignity rather than try to exploit me.

I go to a sizable university. I see cat calls all of the time, and I myself have gotten them even though I don't think I'm a particularly attractive female (no need to give comment either way). The guys at my church weren't comfortable with me (or any other gal in our community) walking back to the dorms alone at night, because even though our campus is considered to be safe, there are still guys who are unsavory. Therefore, the men of my community escort young women home a lot. This didn't start happening to me until I'd been in the community a while, and I'd only let the guys I knew better walk me home, but these were among the first times I felt safe being alone with a man again. There are good men out there too.

Rape is bad, and it is very much about control, and statistically it is more often men that do it. What I find sad is how much control is associated with sex these days. Look at commercials, look at so many things the media says. You "have" to be "sexy" in order to get attention or respect. And then there's the whiplash where if you want respect then you need to realize that "your body is bad." Both of these are gross twistings of what the truth of the matter is. Our bodies are good, but we need to respect our own bodies and the bodies of each other. Modesty isn't about hiding yourself so you won't distract others. It's about placing such value on your body that only people who deserve to see it unveiled will (which is actually the symbolism behind the veil in weddings).

Our bodies are not honored, but rather objectified in so many ways these days. Rape, porn, abortion, birth control are just the beginning (will explain each of these).
Rape, while about control, also has an element of pleasure in it. Porn is all about getting sexual pleasure at the expense of the person in the video or picture. Studies have shown that the parts of the brain that are activated in porn are not those that recognize another person, but rather those that would recognize a tool, such as a hammer (can look up those for you all sometime once I'm feeling calmer).

Birth control and abortion are both ways in which women's bodies are objectified. I find it ironic that in order for women to have "power" and "control" they need to repress their natural superpower to CREATE LIFE and instead need to make themselves... Well, to put it simply, like men. "Feminism" indeed. Oh, by the way, birth control was created by men so that they could have sex with women without any consequences.
That really is what those two are about--the lack of consequences. No responsibility whatsoever.
Now, tell me, if men and women have power and control, why can we not control our own bodies and urges? There are actually certain times of a month when a woman is infertile, and this can be tracked (look up Natural Family Planning).
"Freedom" isn't about being able to do whatever we want and having no consequences, because there is always going to be a consequence.

Let me talk about abortion for just a moment. It is far from "healthcare" for women. Many women who have abortions feel forced into it, as if there were no other option for them. Many are pressured by their parents or boyfriends, or just feel like they are in a hopeless situation. Take it from someone who has faced that decision, and who has actually talked to women about to go into abortion clinics, and women years after their own abortions. Multiple studies have shown that abortion does far more harm to a women than good. If there are two women in similar situations, but one has an abortion and the other doesn't, the woman who has the abortion is far more likely to become depressed and, in some cases, commit suicide. This is even worse in situations where there was a rape. The effects of the rape are felt even more strongly after the abortion. I imagine that it's an even worse version of what I felt after the miscarriage, and that was enough to nearly kill me--literally.
And because of the culture and how overly glorified abortion is, these women are afraid to seek help, and if they seek help in the wrong places, they are silenced. "Oh what you did is a 'good' thing--don't think anything of it" but they do. Oh, they do. There are organizations, such as Project Rachel and Silent No More who reach out to women who have had abortions to help them heal.
The Pro-Life movement is not about forcing women to have babies, it's about saving the lives of the mother, the child, the father, and everyone else involved. There is pregnancy care available, programs in place to help mothers in hard situations, and resources to help give the child as good of a life as possible.
KILLING a child is never going to be the "right" or "responsible" thing to do. Instead, people need to take some responsibility to support these mothers and children and actually work towards improving people's quality of life instead of just trying to end lives.
Someone mentioned the thought that a person gains a soap when they are self aware. What about toddlers? People with disabilities? Is it ok to kill them after they are out of the womb? Where is the line drawn?

Also, a child who has developed for 8 months in the womb can survive out of the womb as well--but inside the womb it isn't considred to be "alive" yet because even though it is at the same level of development, the baby is still in the womb? Is a person who is paralyzed from the neck and unable to live on their own less of a person than you or me? Am I more of a person than a thirteen year old?
A person is a person, regardless of environment, dependency, or level of development.
 

I wouldn't call abortion "evil, radical" or "murder."

Unfortunately, dear, truth isn't objective. There are some things that are always right or always wrong. Terminating a life is always going to be wrong--and stopping a heartbeat and brainwaves is murder.

Now, to address the first part of that quote, as it was an affront against my religion

Women are prohibited from becoming priests in certain denominations.

Hello, I am Roman Catholic. Women cannot become priests. This not because women are hated, it is because of what the nature of the priesthood and what the nature of femininity is.
Here is our belief on sex (trust me, priesthood comes into play, but there's a lot behind this and all I give here is actually only going to be a brief sum up of all of this). Sex is not something evil to repress. It is something beautiful, to be honored and thus reserved for marriage. In fact, sex within marriage is so beautiful, that is a representation within the flesh of God's love for earth. The man is symbolic of God, and how He gives of Himself to the earth. The woman, representing the earth, receives the gift from God and then gives back in the form of life. Now this is with in the "typical" marriage.
A priest is married to the Church. The Church is referenced as the "bride" of Christ multiple times in the scripture, and he appoints men to continue to carry out this particular office. Why? Because it is in the nature of men to give in this way. Where do men go to learn how to be priests? Seminary. It is not chance that the first two vowels resemble the word "semen." They are charged to go out and spread the spiritual life of the Church. The priesthood isn't a profession which should be open to all. It's a vocation, a way of life, and only a select few are called to live out that vocation.
Now does this mean that women are dirty and need to be repressed and aren't good enough? Of course not!
I find it humorous that people are saying that the Church represses women in one breath, and then we are getting criticized for "worshipping" Mary in the next.
There are many many important women in the Church, and there were many important women in the Bible as well. The thing is, the role that they were called to fill was different. They were just as powerful, just as important, but different.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the truth of all of this. Men and women are both powerful, both important, but different. It's in our biology, in our brain structure, and in our being. Yes, we should be valued equally. Yes, there are many things we are equally good at. Yes, there are women who are crazy at sports and are scientists and there are men who are stay at home dads and enjoy knitting. That is all good and all ok. But we are different, and equality doesn't come from everyone being exactly the same. It's about honoring, respecting, and celebrating our differences.
So let's hold EVERYONE to a higher standard shall we?
Men, you are not just brainless hormones trained to lust after every woman you see. You are a powerful and capable man who can control himself.
Women, you are powerful too. You are capable, you are able, and there's a reason men are attracted. Own it without objectifying yourself.

[Aiel Heart]

And sorry, I know that was long and I am almost done, but I just wanted to highlight two more quotes here
 

Just because most rapes are done by men, doesn't mean all men are rapists, or should be stamped as potential rapists.
 
I didn't know it was such a problem in the US with men being regarded as that article says, Senexx. I haven't seen that here at all. But, and I hope no Americans take offense at this it's the sad truth that you guys live in an extremely paranoid society, where everyone is a potentional enemy. I think that makes views like that blossom more strongly. We live more in a "trust until proved otherwise"-type society, so I think that's why those views aren't as normal here.

Completely agree with the first point, and I said a few things to reflect that in my statement above.
We definitely live in a paranoid society. One where everyone is constantly up at arms and in competition against each other. There is very little true trust, even within marriages, which is part of why our divorce rate is so high. It's all very sad to me, and its why I put so much value on trust and truly love the people who have taught me how to trust again.
 
  

Well, I'm kinda a guy so tend to gravitate more towards the warders. I have a few questions about the WT and warders. But in the interest of not spamming this thread I'm not sure if I should ask them here. Would it be okay if i sent you a message?
I know that you already know this men have to be Warders. Senexx is a male Aes Sedai and I myself am a female Warder. I'm also one of the people in charge of the "younger" members of the WT (particularly the Warders), so you can feel free to ask me any questions you have as well :) 

On the subject of abortion, I thought this book was really interesting: The Unaborted Socrates by Peter Kreeft. It is, admittedly, a philosophy book so it is not everyone's cup of tea but it is very thought provoking.

I myself haven't read that book, but a friend of mine has and I believe he thought very highly of it. 

[WildTaltos]

That's a very interesting article, Taltos! I wonder if there's any later research on the subject.

 

thers other and more recennt studies/reviews on subjectt of gender equlity and roles in regardds to social structure, but they incresingly rely on ethnograpphic records as thes sort of societies ar increasinglly threatend and destroyedd, physicaly or culturaly, by unsustainablle development which make firstthand observaton dificult or imposible. i recentlly read one called, "The Way of All Flesh: Sexual Implications of the Mayan Hunt," thatt relly on ethnographiic data for most part and giv interestinng glimpse into an earlly civlisation which probablly representativ of all civilisationns first steps in gender inequallity, basicaly incresing stress on divisionn of labuor along gender lines, distinctionn to onlly men based on th more "important" labuor being male-onlly, and increasingly viewin women as sex objectts to be won.

 

 

 

I wouldn't call abortion "evil, radical" or "murder."

Unfortunately, dear, truth isn't objective. There are some things that are always right or always wrong. Terminating a life is always going to be wrong--and stopping a heartbeat and brainwaves is murder.

 

Now, to address the first part of that quote, as it was an affront against my religion

 

yuo are definitly right - truth isnnt objective (and the definitionn of objectiv is it is an objectt in itsellf somehow free of subjection). so th inverse of that which ye just agreed with is truth is subjective - meanin what is true to one person may not be true to anothre. im guesing by the rest of yourr sentence you ment truth is not subjective but anyways - terminatin a life is never absolutly wrong. as truth is subjective, some peoplle think undr this or that circumstance its rightt, and almos everyone has no huge qualms abuot kiling a plant or anothre species to survive, and of cuorse some peple have differennt definitions of what sholld be given th same moral considerationn as developed humann and what shouldnt (obviouslly when you eat a steak wthout any guilt and then you feel horified that someone kiled someone else, you obviusly arent giving the cow the same moral considration as a human, for example). i give othre species the same moral considration as my own, and as such i know i hav to killl, othre species and if it comes to it, othe people, to continuance my own existence, and i see nothing wrong with it, thogh im more likly to feell remorse for othre species than for people - that to me is th way of things. if yuo are goin to come here and telll me that th way i do it is wrong becuse it goes against some absolute truth, or telll me that  my people need to be "modest" abuot nudity (which to me is justt anothre word for ashame but cleverlly cloaked) - whichh is onlly your subjectiv truth in actuality - then more powerr to you, iv heard that pllenty of times from catholics, but then someone is not the onlly one affronting othres culture/religion.

 

Now, to address the first part of that quote, as it was an affront against my religion

Women are prohibited from becoming priests in certain denominations.

Hello, I am Roman Catholic. Women cannot become priests. This not because women are hated, it is because of what the nature of the priesthood and what the nature of femininity is.

Here is our belief on sex (trust me, priesthood comes into play, but there's a lot behind this and all I give here is actually only going to be a brief sum up of all of this). Sex is not something evil to repress. It is something beautiful, to be honored and thus reserved for marriage. In fact, sex within marriage is so beautiful, that is a representation within the flesh of God's love for earth. The man is symbolic of God, and how He gives of Himself to the earth. The woman, representing the earth, receives the gift from God and then gives back in the form of life. Now this is with in the "typical" marriage.

A priest is married to the Church. The Church is referenced as the "bride" of Christ multiple times in the scripture, and he appoints men to continue to carry out this particular office. Why? Because it is in the nature of men to give in this way. Where do men go to learn how to be priests? Seminary. It is not chance that the first two vowels resemble the word "semen." They are charged to go out and spread the spiritual life of the Church. The priesthood isn't a profession which should be open to all. It's a vocation, a way of life, and only a select few are called to live out that vocation.

Now does this mean that women are dirty and need to be repressed and aren't good enough? Of course not!

I find it humorous that people are saying that the Church represses women in one breath, and then we are getting criticized for "worshipping" Mary in the next.

There are many many important women in the Church, and there were many important women in the Bible as well. The thing is, the role that they were called to fill was different. They were just as powerful, just as important, but different.

 

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the truth of all of this. Men and women are both powerful, both important, but different. It's in our biology, in our brain structure, and in our being. Yes, we should be valued equally. Yes, there are many things we are equally good at. Yes, there are women who are crazy at sports and are scientists and there are men who are stay at home dads and enjoy knitting. That is all good and all ok. But we are different, and equality doesn't come from everyone being exactly the same. It's about honoring, respecting, and celebrating our differences.

So let's hold EVERYONE to a higher standard shall we?

Men, you are not just brainless hormones trained to lust after every woman you see. You are a powerful and capable man who can control himself.

Women, you are powerful too. You are capable, you are able, and there's a reason men are attracted. Own it without objectifying yourself.

 

i dont know how you read that as an "affront to your religon" becuse yuor religion is not the onlly christiann denominatitthat bars/barrred women from fillin authority role and she didd not name names, besides was jst stating a fact - some denomination bar women from priest/equiclent thereof, roman catholic and others. my culture bard women from becomin draoi, which is ruogh eequvalent to priest, way back when, and if she had saidd 'some celtic peoples didnt allow women to do this", that wold have been statment of fact and thres no denyin the suorce of that - its patriarchical, whatevre the resoning is, plain and simple, im not going maek excuses for that as the reasoning behinnd it is at its core patriarchical (and unsurprisinglly it uses much the same resoning, that it is onlly in mens nature to be draoi and so women cant do it). women allowd to be draoi nowdays becuse losing almost everythin you have reallly strips away lot of delusions fuonded in wealth and civilisaton, includingg gender divides thatt never really existed. ive read number of earlly irish medieval texts, lot of which written by monks, and the patriarchy dosnt even bbother to hide itself, such as cler pronouncments that women are weaker than men, inferior, niot to be trusted, etc., whil romans/mediteranean peoples in general were eeven worse abuot how viewed women - judaism, which christinity fuonded upon, i woulld say in itself is patriarchal thouh im sure some jews themselves would try argue im wrong, so seem to me then that the early church was fuonded on patriarchal ideas as so many othre civilised modes of thought from thatt, and even if want to reason it more favuorably in modern days, what you just said still smacks of patriarchy to me because pronuonces the infamuos ideology of men inheranttly (and convenintly) are the onlly ones who have access to a certainn power roll, spirituall and cultural intermediary or otherwise, and women just inherantly arent and thats that.

 

men and women are diferent nature, and of cuorse shold respect those diferences, but i think its important to distinguish whatt diferences are actuallly nature and what is justt a construct of society/culture. if women no being alowed to be priest is reall and natural to you, then farbeit from me to convince you otherwis or analyse anything else you written (and i sure have lot to say abuot rape,porn, othre social issues that i dont think you are atributing to the right dysnfunction), but dont expect other people to follow that logic.

[Xthrax]

I've been reading this thread and I quite agree with what was said about rape and people objectifying women. Rape and objectifying women is wrong. Much firmer laws should be made against these rights. Laws without loopholes that do not allow people to walk free. 

 

Here is a article that I've read some time back. It touches upon that which was discussed and shows how parents defend their children conforming to the statement 'Boys will be boys'. They say that it's girls who have to keep themselves safe. This is the article-https://epiphanyinthecacophony.wordpress.com/2014/04/15/my-son-would-never-rape-a-woman/ . I don't know whether the writer intended it to be this way but the way it appears in the wrong way to me.

I'm a guy and I have to say-that is wrong and very disappointing. It's very sad if this is what the world has come to.

[Elgee]

Heart, though I agree with a lot of what you said, I have to agree with most of Taltos' rebuttal, specifically to your reply to Ryrin.

 

Xthrax, I don't actually know what to make of that article. I'm sort of presuming that it's anti-rape, but yeah ... confusing.

[Xthrax]

Heart, though I agree with a lot of what you said, I have to agree with most of Taltos' rebuttal, specifically to your reply to Ryrin.

 

Xthrax, I don't actually know what to make of that article. I'm sort of presuming that it's anti-rape, but yeah ... confusing.

I don't really stand with that. A lot of the comments seem to be so but the article doesn't come across to me like that. Though what the writer posted is how rapists are defended- and that is the part I wished to highlight.

[Aiel Heart]

Quick reply after skimming--I know that it wasn't specifically targeting my religion in particular, but I become frustrated when my religion and others are considered to be sexist (which is degrading my religion) purely for that reason, which most people simply misunderstand. "Affront" may have not been the best word, but at the same time that was a degrading comment to the religions which practice male-only priesthood.

 

Taltos I'll respond to the objective/subjective discussion sometime when my brain isn't fried from studying

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

Ok I'm needing to stop and calm myself down at page 6 because while many things in this were likely to get me riled up (and did) abortion came up. So... This may be a little jumpy and scattered, but it's because I am quite emotionally charged.

 

 

I'll respond to the rest later, but here's my say for now. And before I begin, I feel I should give context. Some of you know that I have some kind of past. Here it is, albeit a brief version.

 

I was in a sexually abusive relationship in high school. I was made to feel like dirt, felt like an object or pet, and never felt like I was good enough to keep my ex's attention even though he got whatever he wanted from me. I was afraid to tell anyone about what was going on, and because of that...

I'm pretty sure I was pregnant but had an early miscarriage. That in itself was horrible for me. Abortion actually crossed my mind, even though I was already very pro-life at the time. There was just so much fear... Fear for myself and my future, fear for my child and the life she would live, fear of how may family and friends and classmates would treat me after that.... But far worse was when I realized there was no longer alive growing inside. Because amidst all of the deadness, amidst all of the pain and the ceaseless suffering... There was a life. There was the future. And now that miracle was gone.

I suffer from PTSD because of what I went through, and the anxiety and depression I already had got far worse. There was a while here that I was afraid of men, afraid of being alone with them. My church community helped immensely with my healing, and I learned again that not all men are bad, and there are some who will hold up me and my dignity rather than try to exploit me.

 

I go to a sizable university. I see cat calls all of the time, and I myself have gotten them even though I don't think I'm a particularly attractive female (no need to give comment either way). The guys at my church weren't comfortable with me (or any other gal in our community) walking back to the dorms alone at night, because even though our campus is considered to be safe, there are still guys who are unsavory. Therefore, the men of my community escort young women home a lot. This didn't start happening to me until I'd been in the community a while, and I'd only let the guys I knew better walk me home, but these were among the first times I felt safe being alone with a man again. There are good men out there too.

 

Rape is bad, and it is very much about control, and statistically it is more often men that do it. What I find sad is how much control is associated with sex these days. Look at commercials, look at so many things the media says. You "have" to be "sexy" in order to get attention or respect. And then there's the whiplash where if you want respect then you need to realize that "your body is bad." Both of these are gross twistings of what the truth of the matter is. Our bodies are good, but we need to respect our own bodies and the bodies of each other. Modesty isn't about hiding yourself so you won't distract others. It's about placing such value on your body that only people who deserve to see it unveiled will (which is actually the symbolism behind the veil in weddings).

 

Our bodies are not honored, but rather objectified in so many ways these days. Rape, porn, abortion, birth control are just the beginning (will explain each of these).

Rape, while about control, also has an element of pleasure in it. Porn is all about getting sexual pleasure at the expense of the person in the video or picture. Studies have shown that the parts of the brain that are activated in porn are not those that recognize another person, but rather those that would recognize a tool, such as a hammer (can look up those for you all sometime once I'm feeling calmer).

 

Birth control and abortion are both ways in which women's bodies are objectified. I find it ironic that in order for women to have "power" and "control" they need to repress their natural superpower to CREATE LIFE and instead need to make themselves... Well, to put it simply, like men. "Feminism" indeed. Oh, by the way, birth control was created by men so that they could have sex with women without any consequences.

That really is what those two are about--the lack of consequences. No responsibility whatsoever.

Now, tell me, if men and women have power and control, why can we not control our own bodies and urges? There are actually certain times of a month when a woman is infertile, and this can be tracked (look up Natural Family Planning).

"Freedom" isn't about being able to do whatever we want and having no consequences, because there is always going to be a consequence.

 

Let me talk about abortion for just a moment. It is far from "healthcare" for women. Many women who have abortions feel forced into it, as if there were no other option for them. Many are pressured by their parents or boyfriends, or just feel like they are in a hopeless situation. Take it from someone who has faced that decision, and who has actually talked to women about to go into abortion clinics, and women years after their own abortions. Multiple studies have shown that abortion does far more harm to a women than good. If there are two women in similar situations, but one has an abortion and the other doesn't, the woman who has the abortion is far more likely to become depressed and, in some cases, commit suicide. This is even worse in situations where there was a rape. The effects of the rape are felt even more strongly after the abortion. I imagine that it's an even worse version of what I felt after the miscarriage, and that was enough to nearly kill me--literally.

And because of the culture and how overly glorified abortion is, these women are afraid to seek help, and if they seek help in the wrong places, they are silenced. "Oh what you did is a 'good' thing--don't think anything of it" but they do. Oh, they do. There are organizations, such as Project Rachel and Silent No More who reach out to women who have had abortions to help them heal.

The Pro-Life movement is not about forcing women to have babies, it's about saving the lives of the mother, the child, the father, and everyone else involved. There is pregnancy care available, programs in place to help mothers in hard situations, and resources to help give the child as good of a life as possible.

KILLING a child is never going to be the "right" or "responsible" thing to do. Instead, people need to take some responsibility to support these mothers and children and actually work towards improving people's quality of life instead of just trying to end lives.

Someone mentioned the thought that a person gains a soap when they are self aware. What about toddlers? People with disabilities? Is it ok to kill them after they are out of the womb? Where is the line drawn?

 

Also, a child who has developed for 8 months in the womb can survive out of the womb as well--but inside the womb it isn't considred to be "alive" yet because even though it is at the same level of development, the baby is still in the womb? Is a person who is paralyzed from the neck and unable to live on their own less of a person than you or me? Am I more of a person than a thirteen year old?

A person is a person, regardless of environment, dependency, or level of development.

 

I wouldn't call abortion "evil, radical" or "murder."

Unfortunately, dear, truth isn't objective. There are some things that are always right or always wrong. Terminating a life is always going to be wrong--and stopping a heartbeat and brainwaves is murder.

 

Now, to address the first part of that quote, as it was an affront against my religion

Women are prohibited from becoming priests in certain denominations.

Hello, I am Roman Catholic. Women cannot become priests. This not because women are hated, it is because of what the nature of the priesthood and what the nature of femininity is.

Here is our belief on sex (trust me, priesthood comes into play, but there's a lot behind this and all I give here is actually only going to be a brief sum up of all of this). Sex is not something evil to repress. It is something beautiful, to be honored and thus reserved for marriage. In fact, sex within marriage is so beautiful, that is a representation within the flesh of God's love for earth. The man is symbolic of God, and how He gives of Himself to the earth. The woman, representing the earth, receives the gift from God and then gives back in the form of life. Now this is with in the "typical" marriage.

A priest is married to the Church. The Church is referenced as the "bride" of Christ multiple times in the scripture, and he appoints men to continue to carry out this particular office. Why? Because it is in the nature of men to give in this way. Where do men go to learn how to be priests? Seminary. It is not chance that the first two vowels resemble the word "semen." They are charged to go out and spread the spiritual life of the Church. The priesthood isn't a profession which should be open to all. It's a vocation, a way of life, and only a select few are called to live out that vocation.

Now does this mean that women are dirty and need to be repressed and aren't good enough? Of course not!

I find it humorous that people are saying that the Church represses women in one breath, and then we are getting criticized for "worshipping" Mary in the next.

There are many many important women in the Church, and there were many important women in the Bible as well. The thing is, the role that they were called to fill was different. They were just as powerful, just as important, but different.

 

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the truth of all of this. Men and women are both powerful, both important, but different. It's in our biology, in our brain structure, and in our being. Yes, we should be valued equally. Yes, there are many things we are equally good at. Yes, there are women who are crazy at sports and are scientists and there are men who are stay at home dads and enjoy knitting. That is all good and all ok. But we are different, and equality doesn't come from everyone being exactly the same. It's about honoring, respecting, and celebrating our differences.

So let's hold EVERYONE to a higher standard shall we?

Men, you are not just brainless hormones trained to lust after every woman you see. You are a powerful and capable man who can control himself.

Women, you are powerful too. You are capable, you are able, and there's a reason men are attracted. Own it without objectifying yourself.

 

You are wonderful.   

 

 

And sorry, I know that was long and I am almost done, but I just wanted to highlight two more quotes here

 

Just because most rapes are done by men, doesn't mean all men are rapists, or should be stamped as potential rapists.

 

I didn't know it was such a problem in the US with men being regarded as that article says, Senexx. I haven't seen that here at all. But, and I hope no Americans take offense at this it's the sad truth that you guys live in an extremely paranoid society, where everyone is a potentional enemy. I think that makes views like that blossom more strongly. We live more in a "trust until proved otherwise"-type society, so I think that's why those views aren't as normal here.

Completely agree with the first point, and I said a few things to reflect that in my statement above.

We definitely live in a paranoid society. One where everyone is constantly up at arms and in competition against each other. There is very little true trust, even within marriages, which is part of why our divorce rate is so high. It's all very sad to me, and its why I put so much value on trust and truly love the people who have taught me how to trust again.

 

  

Well, I'm kinda a guy so tend to gravitate more towards the warders. I have a few questions about the WT and warders. But in the interest of not spamming this thread I'm not sure if I should ask them here. Would it be okay if i sent you a message?

I know that you already know this men have to be Warders. Senexx is a male Aes Sedai and I myself am a female Warder. I'm also one of the people in charge of the "younger" members of the WT (particularly the Warders), so you can feel free to ask me any questions you have as well :) 

 

On the subject of abortion, I thought this book was really interesting: The Unaborted Socrates by Peter Kreeft. It is, admittedly, a philosophy book so it is not everyone's cup of tea but it is very thought provoking.

I myself haven't read that book, but a friend of mine has and I believe he thought very highly of it. 

 

Yay! Someone knows about Peter Kreeft! Have you read 'The Best Things in Life'? I don't want to derail this thread but I so excited.   I agree 100% with everything you said.

 

I cannot really understand Mr. Taltos (I'm not a grammar Nazi but I really couldn't understand.) But I think I get the gist of what he is saying. The point is, Abortion is the killing of an innocent human life. The truth is not subjective as you both said. The truth is, there is such a thing as self defense and 'just war,' and while these are morally acceptable, abortion is nothing like these. The child in the womb is human life. Personhood does not depend of time, place or anything like that. This is not religious ideology, it is science. Something is alive in the womb and it isn't a pig, it isn't a fish, it isn't a plant, it is a human being and definitely not a 'lump of tissue.' 

 

And before someone brings it up, no we should not just keep abortion 'safe and legal' glossing over the fact that it  definitely isn't 'safe' for the infant being killed. We should not keep abortion simply so that people don't go back alley coat hanger. That would be like making robbery legal just because the robber might get hurt during the robbery.

 

A little counterpoint to the whole vegetarian part of Taltos' shpeel:  A cow, for example is not a human. They don't have thought and ideas and questions the same way we do. Also, if we are all equal, then we should still eat meat because many animals do that naturally in the wild. And judging from our incisors and molars, the human is an omnivore. 

 

Though I think you are wrong on abortion, Taltos, I don't hate you because of it. I am not like the liberal mobs who cuss at pro-lifer while they are quietly praying and neither is anyone else in this thread, for which I am glad. I really respect the way everyone is remaining calm and courteous desire our differences.  I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this. 

[WildTaltos]

A little counterpoint to the whole vegetarian part of Taltos' shpeel:  A cow, for example is not a human. They don't have thought and ideas and questions the same way we do. Also, if we are all equal, then we should still eat meat because many animals do that naturally in the wild. And judging from our incisors and molars, the human is an omnivore. 

 

Though I think you are wrong on abortion, Taltos, I don't hate you because of it. I am not like the liberal mobs who cuss at pro-lifer while they are quietly praying and neither is anyone else in this thread, for which I am glad. I really respect the way everyone is remaining calm and courteous desire our differences.  I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this.

a littlle counterpoint to whole "vegetarian"??? i am not vegetarian - i nevre said im vegetarian - so dont kno wher that came from, unles yuor saying somhow that if you eat meatt then you cant posiblly hold animals at same level as human, in which case yuo are saying that, not me. i lik to hunt, but as i said, i kno i do that, kill, jjust as i might kil a plant in proces of takin waht needd from it, in order to live, and i dont respectt the plant or animall any les just becuse im killin it. i respect what in esence is going become part of me, its goingg to join with my ownn magick when i eat it, becuse disrespectin it is ultimatly disrespcting myself. yuor other logic dosnt make sense to me - a cow dos not have the same thoughhts and ideas as me, but i dont have the same thuoghts and ideas of a cow, just as most othre humans dnot have the same thoughts and ideas of me, just as the crow dosnt have the same thoughts and ideas as the fly. everyon and everything is different,, and i dont see any reson to disrespectt somone, treat them less, just becuse they are dumber or diferent from me unles they delibratly angering me withh their stupidity, but thats more case of thir provoking me, just as somone inteligent might provoke me by hiting me, and not exacttly because theyre just dumb.

 

I cannot really understand Mr. Taltos (I'm not a grammar Nazi but I really couldn't understand.) But I think I get the gist of what he is saying. The point is, Abortion is the killing of an innocent human life. The truth is not subjective as you both said. The truth is, there is such a thing as self defense and 'just war,' and while these are morally acceptable, abortion is nothing like these. The child in the womb is human life. Personhood does not depend of time, place or anything like that. This is not religious ideology, it is science. Something is alive in the womb and it isn't a pig, it isn't a fish, it isn't a plant, it is a human being and definitely not a 'lump of tissue.'

do not force yuor morals/ideaology onto science, becuse what yo just said is not science. science is the 'objective' procoesss of unconvring physical facts - so whatt a foetus may or may not experience in the womb, pure data and unbiased interpretationn, such as sayin foetus may feell pain at this or taht many weeks or, basd on genetics thiis is a developin human, etc., is science. "abortion is the kiling of an inocent human life" is in no way a scientific statement - yuo can argue all you like but i hav scientific traininng and even somone withuot it cuold see that 'innocent' is a valuue laden word, in no way aproaching objectivve, while of cuorse whil it is human, how yuo value a human, adult, child, or foetus, is up to each personn, whil 'personhood' is not a sceintific term at all, and it prety much infuriates me that somone who clerly dos not have scientific training is tryin to twist it withh their own bias. what you are doing equates to me sayin that based on the interconectedness of ecological proceses demonstratd by science, that must meann that all life is connectd by a shared vitall force called magick and therefore everythin must be a part of a sacred whole - thats only my interpretaton though, science did not say thatt, science just demonstrated the high interdependncy of biotic relationships and its not suposed to say much more than thatt.

[Ryrin]

Ok I'm needing to stop and calm myself down at page 6 because while many things in this were likely to get me riled up (and did) abortion came up. So... This may be a little jumpy and scattered, but it's because I am quite emotionally charged.

I'll respond to the rest later, but here's my say for now. And before I begin, I feel I should give context. Some of you know that I have some kind of past. Here it is, albeit a brief version.

I was in a sexually abusive relationship in high school. I was made to feel like dirt, felt like an object or pet, and never felt like I was good enough to keep my ex's attention even though he got whatever he wanted from me. I was afraid to tell anyone about what was going on, and because of that...

I'm pretty sure I was pregnant but had an early miscarriage. That in itself was horrible for me. Abortion actually crossed my mind, even though I was already very pro-life at the time. There was just so much fear... Fear for myself and my future, fear for my child and the life she would live, fear of how may family and friends and classmates would treat me after that.... But far worse was when I realized there was no longer alive growing inside. Because amidst all of the deadness, amidst all of the pain and the ceaseless suffering... There was a life. There was the future. And now that miracle was gone.

I suffer from PTSD because of what I went through, and the anxiety and depression I already had got far worse. There was a while here that I was afraid of men, afraid of being alone with them. My church community helped immensely with my healing, and I learned again that not all men are bad, and there are some who will hold up me and my dignity rather than try to exploit me.

I go to a sizable university. I see cat calls all of the time, and I myself have gotten them even though I don't think I'm a particularly attractive female (no need to give comment either way). The guys at my church weren't comfortable with me (or any other gal in our community) walking back to the dorms alone at night, because even though our campus is considered to be safe, there are still guys who are unsavory. Therefore, the men of my community escort young women home a lot. This didn't start happening to me until I'd been in the community a while, and I'd only let the guys I knew better walk me home, but these were among the first times I felt safe being alone with a man again. There are good men out there too.

Rape is bad, and it is very much about control, and statistically it is more often men that do it. What I find sad is how much control is associated with sex these days. Look at commercials, look at so many things the media says. You "have" to be "sexy" in order to get attention or respect. And then there's the whiplash where if you want respect then you need to realize that "your body is bad." Both of these are gross twistings of what the truth of the matter is. Our bodies are good, but we need to respect our own bodies and the bodies of each other. Modesty isn't about hiding yourself so you won't distract others. It's about placing such value on your body that only people who deserve to see it unveiled will (which is actually the symbolism behind the veil in weddings).

Our bodies are not honored, but rather objectified in so many ways these days. Rape, porn, abortion, birth control are just the beginning (will explain each of these).

Rape, while about control, also has an element of pleasure in it. Porn is all about getting sexual pleasure at the expense of the person in the video or picture. Studies have shown that the parts of the brain that are activated in porn are not those that recognize another person, but rather those that would recognize a tool, such as a hammer (can look up those for you all sometime once I'm feeling calmer).

Birth control and abortion are both ways in which women's bodies are objectified. I find it ironic that in order for women to have "power" and "control" they need to repress their natural superpower to CREATE LIFE and instead need to make themselves... Well, to put it simply, like men. "Feminism" indeed. Oh, by the way, birth control was created by men so that they could have sex with women without any consequences.

That really is what those two are about--the lack of consequences. No responsibility whatsoever.

Now, tell me, if men and women have power and control, why can we not control our own bodies and urges? There are actually certain times of a month when a woman is infertile, and this can be tracked (look up Natural Family Planning).

"Freedom" isn't about being able to do whatever we want and having no consequences, because there is always going to be a consequence.

Let me talk about abortion for just a moment. It is far from "healthcare" for women. Many women who have abortions feel forced into it, as if there were no other option for them. Many are pressured by their parents or boyfriends, or just feel like they are in a hopeless situation. Take it from someone who has faced that decision, and who has actually talked to women about to go into abortion clinics, and women years after their own abortions. Multiple studies have shown that abortion does far more harm to a women than good. If there are two women in similar situations, but one has an abortion and the other doesn't, the woman who has the abortion is far more likely to become depressed and, in some cases, commit suicide. This is even worse in situations where there was a rape. The effects of the rape are felt even more strongly after the abortion. I imagine that it's an even worse version of what I felt after the miscarriage, and that was enough to nearly kill me--literally.

And because of the culture and how overly glorified abortion is, these women are afraid to seek help, and if they seek help in the wrong places, they are silenced. "Oh what you did is a 'good' thing--don't think anything of it" but they do. Oh, they do. There are organizations, such as Project Rachel and Silent No More who reach out to women who have had abortions to help them heal.

The Pro-Life movement is not about forcing women to have babies, it's about saving the lives of the mother, the child, the father, and everyone else involved. There is pregnancy care available, programs in place to help mothers in hard situations, and resources to help give the child as good of a life as possible.

KILLING a child is never going to be the "right" or "responsible" thing to do. Instead, people need to take some responsibility to support these mothers and children and actually work towards improving people's quality of life instead of just trying to end lives.

Someone mentioned the thought that a person gains a soap when they are self aware. What about toddlers? People with disabilities? Is it ok to kill them after they are out of the womb? Where is the line drawn?

Also, a child who has developed for 8 months in the womb can survive out of the womb as well--but inside the womb it isn't considred to be "alive" yet because even though it is at the same level of development, the baby is still in the womb? Is a person who is paralyzed from the neck and unable to live on their own less of a person than you or me? Am I more of a person than a thirteen year old?

A person is a person, regardless of environment, dependency, or level of development.

 

 

I wouldn't call abortion "evil, radical" or "murder."

 

Unfortunately, dear, truth isn't objective. There are some things that are always right or always wrong. Terminating a life is always going to be wrong--and stopping a heartbeat and brainwaves is murder.

Now, to address the first part of that quote, as it was an affront against my religion

Women are prohibited from becoming priests in certain denominations.

 

Hello, I am Roman Catholic. Women cannot become priests. This not because women are hated, it is because of what the nature of the priesthood and what the nature of femininity is.

Here is our belief on sex (trust me, priesthood comes into play, but there's a lot behind this and all I give here is actually only going to be a brief sum up of all of this). Sex is not something evil to repress. It is something beautiful, to be honored and thus reserved for marriage. In fact, sex within marriage is so beautiful, that is a representation within the flesh of God's love for earth. The man is symbolic of God, and how He gives of Himself to the earth. The woman, representing the earth, receives the gift from God and then gives back in the form of life. Now this is with in the "typical" marriage.

A priest is married to the Church. The Church is referenced as the "bride" of Christ multiple times in the scripture, and he appoints men to continue to carry out this particular office. Why? Because it is in the nature of men to give in this way. Where do men go to learn how to be priests? Seminary. It is not chance that the first two vowels resemble the word "semen." They are charged to go out and spread the spiritual life of the Church. The priesthood isn't a profession which should be open to all. It's a vocation, a way of life, and only a select few are called to live out that vocation.

Now does this mean that women are dirty and need to be repressed and aren't good enough? Of course not!

I find it humorous that people are saying that the Church represses women in one breath, and then we are getting criticized for "worshipping" Mary in the next.

There are many many important women in the Church, and there were many important women in the Bible as well. The thing is, the role that they were called to fill was different. They were just as powerful, just as important, but different.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the truth of all of this. Men and women are both powerful, both important, but different. It's in our biology, in our brain structure, and in our being. Yes, we should be valued equally. Yes, there are many things we are equally good at. Yes, there are women who are crazy at sports and are scientists and there are men who are stay at home dads and enjoy knitting. That is all good and all ok. But we are different, and equality doesn't come from everyone being exactly the same. It's about honoring, respecting, and celebrating our differences.

So let's hold EVERYONE to a higher standard shall we?

Men, you are not just brainless hormones trained to lust after every woman you see. You are a powerful and capable man who can control himself.

Women, you are powerful too. You are capable, you are able, and there's a reason men are attracted. Own it without objectifying yourself.

First of all, Heart, I'm not your "dear" and don't appreciate being patronized.

 

I don't require Catholic standards of what is right and wrong. I'm not Catholic.

 

Secondly, I don't think women's health care and control over reproductive health should be lawfully controlled based on the religious beliefs of others.

 

Thirdly, I have been a social worker for 30 years or so. Women are perfectly capable of making decisions for themselves . They don't need to be protected by other's religious beliefs or fears of what might happen.

 

Using birth control helps a woman control her fertility and allows her to choose when and if to have a child. ("Natural" family planning has a high failure rate.) It's not about "objectification" it's about being responsible.

 

I also don't think your "standards" are any higher than others. That kind of projection is unwanted and unnecessary.

 

It's simple, really. If you don't want to use birth control, don't use it. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one.

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

'It's simple, really. If you don't want to use birth control, don't use it. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one'.  

 

 

????? What? Thats like saying: 'If you don't want people to be killed, don't kill them.... no it's not LIKE that, it IS that... 

 

 

As for Taltos, dude, I'm trying SO hard to understand you but I really can't... sorry.  

[WildTaltos]

'It's simple, really. If you don't want to use birth control, don't use it. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one'.  

 

 

????? What? Thats like saying: 'If you don't want people to be killed, don't kill them.... no it's not LIKE that, it IS that... 

 

 

As for Taltos, dude, I'm trying SO hard to understand you but I really can't... sorry.  

others can read mmy writing, its not like its in chinnese, so i dont know what the problem is othre than you just dont folow my logic, which semms th case since somehow, someone saying what amountts to "if you dont like an action that goes aginst your morals, then you dont have to do it," didnt make sense to you

[blank]

Alright. This a tricky subject matter that not only stirs up people's political beliefs but also brings in people's personal experiences and religions into the mix. 

 

During such times people tend to speak in absolutes, declaring their own opinions as facts and tempers run high. On both sides of the issue.

 

I'm sure nothing that's been said has been meant as personal attack on anyone, just people being swept away with their passions but I really think people need to stop and think before they type and make sure what they are trying to say is coming across properly. 

 

 

I think that it's great that we can share our controversial opinions and stay friends but more consideration is needed people to keep it that way.

[Ryrin]

'It's simple, really. If you don't want to use birth control, don't use it. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one'.

 

 

????? What? Thats like saying: 'If you don't want people to be killed, don't kill them.... no it's not LIKE that, it IS that...

 

 

As for Taltos, dude, I'm trying SO hard to understand you but I really can't... sorry.

Hi, Jak!

 

We aren't talking about people walking around getting murdered. We are talking about very personal and intimate behavior. Using birth control does not equal murder in most people's eyes.

 

As for abortion, religions don't all agree when "life" begins. I have no issues with abortion, so why should I have to be legally bound by someone else's religious beliefs?

[Tsukibana]

Jack, Tal makes perfect sense. Shocking, me defending him after our own discourse earlier, I know.

 

If you think birth control is wrong (ie, cause you are Catholic), then DON'T USE IT. Don't make it illegal for everyone...

Drinking, smoking, abortion, same-sex marriage... a person's stance on ANY of these can come down to a moral stand-point,

but here is what he is saying - Just because you think something is wrong, doesn't give you the right to impose your world view

on others.

 

There are things I believe SHOULD be enforced, regardless of what ANY group, majority or minority, wants... But there are things, that when done by

adults, are between themselves and God. This is one of those issues.

 

I am anti-abortion, but I will never vote against it. What I WILL vote for is giving the father the right to be involved.

I am against homosexuality, but I vote for same-sex marriage. I have LGBT friends (and probably others that have letters that haven't yet been added to the soup).

I am against drinking and smoking, but I will not outlaw it.

These are all issues that don't matter.

 

I am against child soldiers, and rape, and I would conquer all of Darfur. I am against slavery - The African countries that still practice it need to be wiped out... 

http://www.hope-project.org/africa/modern-slave-trade-in-africa/

THESE are the issues that we should focus on - not condom use, abortion, or what form love takes. That makes me an Imperialist, but no culture has the right to survive.

Of course, if something better comes along, that means my own, as well.

[Ryrin]

I agree blank.

[Tsukibana]

"Terminating a life is always wrong..."  Might wanna avoid the generalizations, dear.

I have a grandmother who died of bone cancer, in horrible pain because she became immune to the strongest pain meds out there... she begged to die.

Would taking THAT life be wrong??

[Ryrin]

"Terminating a life is always wrong..."  Might wanna avoid the generalizations, dear.

I have a grandmother who died of bone cancer, in horrible pain because she became immune to the strongest pain meds out there... she begged to die.

Would taking THAT life be wrong??

I think it's vital to recognize that people believe differently from one another and that one group doesn't have the absolute "truth" for everyone, especially in matters such as these.

[Aiel Heart]

Quick sleepy replies--and sorry for any riling up I did earlier. 
 

First of all, Heart, I'm not your "dear" and don't appreciate being patronized.

I actually wasn't intending to patronize. I call a lot of people "dear," "hun" and the like in multiple situations. Sorry if you took it that way. 

I don't require Catholic standards of what is right and wrong. I'm not Catholic.
Too tired to put this response in words that make sense right now, but I do not believe I said you had to be Catholic. I believe I merely state that I was, and gave my view on these issues. 

Secondly, I don't think women's health care and control over reproductive health should be lawfully controlled based on the religious beliefs of others.

So should those of us who don't agree with abortion and birth control be forced to pay for it via taxes that then feed into the "healthcare" which these two "services" are now included in?

 

Thirdly, I have been a social worker for 30 years or so. Women are perfectly capable of making decisions for themselves . They don't need to be protected by other's religious beliefs or fears of what might happen.

Oh they are perfectly capable of making their own decisions. But it can be extremely difficult to have a clear mind and make your own decision when you are afraid of losing those who mean the most to you, afraid of what your future will hold, and are getting pressure on many sides. They aren't being "protected" by this fear; the fear is what driving them to make the "decision." And many of these women are coming from very unsteady relationships and situations and do, more than anything else, want to feel cared for and protected. I salute your ~30 years as a social worker, and respect that you have a great deal of knowledge from that. I've been out there in the world too though, albeit in a different situation. 

 

Using birth control helps a woman control her fertility and allows her to choose when and if to have a child. ("Natural" family planning has a high failure rate.) It's not about "objectification" it's about being responsible.

Natural family planning, which uses the woman's natural body rhythm, actually has a very high success rate when properly used. Now many do only half attempt it and then it doesn't end well. And then there's also a higher birth rate among these couples, but that's out of choice rather than because of "system failure." So then we go back to being responsible for ones own sexual behavior in order to "control fertility"

I also don't think your "standards" are any higher than others. That kind of projection is unwanted and unnecessary.

Something I've found common among many mainstream feminists (this may not be true in this situation) is the overwhelming attitude of "people/teens are going to have sex, so we're just going to make sure it's safe" which basically says "there's no way anyone is going to be able to control themselves, but we can at least make it so there are no consequences" which I find to be very demeaning to people actually. We are so much more capable than that. 

However, the "higher standard" I spoke of referenced back to a conversation that was earlier in this thread which said something along the lines of how men needed to take more responsibility in the way that they treated women or something to that nature. Both men and women have a lot of improving to do.

It's simple, really. If you don't want to use birth control, don't use it. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one.

With both of these (not going to do the birth control discussion at the moment), those of my faith are being forced to cover and pay for them even though we believe them to be morally wrong. Is that right?
And with abortion, there is scientific backing to say that this child is an irreplaceable human life, with a heart beat, with brain waves, that will continue to grow when nourished just as you do. What makes that child's life worth any less than yours or mine?

 

 

"Terminating a life is always wrong..."  Might wanna avoid the generalizations, dear.
I have a grandmother who died of bone cancer, in horrible pain because she became immune to the strongest pain meds out there... she begged to die.
Would taking THAT life be wrong??

This would take a long description to give the overview it deserves, but putting it barebones (and it sounds horrible and hollow this way, I know) but allowing someone to die is actually not the same as killing/terminating them. There is a difference between giving someone the basics that they need to live and going to "extraordinary means" (as we call it) to keep someone alive.  If someone's body is failing, if they are in pain and dying, then nature will take its course, and there are ways to ease that passing without forcing it. The specifics depend on the situation, and I am not learned in medicine so I do not know what your grandmother's case would have called for, especially if her pain meds no longer worked. I can ask people I know who are more versed in the subject if you wish. 

 

Ok sleepy time. Will address things that require fully awake thoughts at some other time. Goodnight everyone 

[Ryrin]

"Too tired to put this response in words that make sense right now, but I do not believe I said you had to be Catholic. I believe I merely state that I was, and gave my view on these issues."

 

This is what you said: Unfortunately, dear, truth isn't objective. There are some things that are always right or always wrong. Terminating a life is always going to be wrong--and stopping a heartbeat and brainwaves is murder.

 

Surely you are not unaware that others believe differently? In this case it is not "always." An unborn fetus in Jewish law is not considered a person.

 

"Freedom" isn't about being able to do whatever we want and having no consequences, because there is always going to be a consequence.

 

Do you view a child as a consequence?

 

"Many women who have abortions feel forced into it."

 

In this country, there is no "forcing" women to have abortions. What we do have though, is a group of people who want to control women's reproductive capacities, legally, by forcing them to carry unwanted pregnancies. There are a number of women who have difficulties after abortion because they have been told by others they have committed murder, sins, killed their "child" etc.

 

Would you like to talk about premature births? I've had two and spent months in the NICU with both of them. Ditto for working with the disabled. It's been decades. The slippery slope fallacy is just that, a fallacy.

 

"Women are prohibited from becoming priests in certain denominations."

Now, to address the first part of that quote, as it was an affront against my religion.

 

If women being unable to become priests is an "affront to your religion" I would suggest that you try to change that from within. If not, it is a simple statement of fact.

 

"Something I've found common among many mainstream feminists (this may not be true in this situation) is the overwhelming attitude of "people/teens are going to have sex, so we're just going to make sure it's safe" which basically says "there's no way anyone is going to be able to control themselves, but we can at least make it so there are no consequences" which I find to be very demeaning to people actually. We are so much more capable than that.

However, the "higher standard" I spoke of referenced back to a conversation that was earlier in this thread which said something along the lines of how men needed to take more responsibility in the way that they treated women or something to that nature. Both men and women have a lot of improving to do."

 

It appears you are saying that choosing to have sex with a partner and taking precautions is an act taken when one is out of control. I think it's quite the opposite.

 

So should those of us who don't agree with abortion and birth control be forced to pay for it via taxes that then feed into the "healthcare" which these two "services" are now included in?

 

As in insurance premiums/health care taxes? Of course. A man will never get pregnant but the policy includes prenatal care. I may never get cancer but I do think oncology should be a covered service. Should the gay man with AIDS not have funding for treatment because some people don't "believe" in homosexuality? What about the person who smokes? Should we withhold funding because we don't want to pay for the consequences of smoking? And obesity? What if we "believe" gluttony is wrong? Should the overweight Type II diabetic be out of luck?

 

The point of all of this is that we should basically stay out of other people's beds and wombs.

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

Can I just reiterate what Blank said so nicely,

 

This thread is getting a little spikey in a few places with a bit of animosity behind some of the replies, or so it seems to me which means it may seem that way to other readers/the reciprocants.

 

We are happy for anyone to discuss anything here, but not going to allow such a sensitive debate to get out of hand and cause arguing or too much heat.

 

As a general rule of thumb, I think if someone has said something that strikes a strong personal chord with you, especially due to your past personal experiences- which I fully sympathise with, as it can happen- it may be best to allow yourself to cool down a little before replying to said person.

 

Also when giving your opinion please bear in mind that it is your opinion, no matter how strongly you feel it.

 

That said, you are all to be praised for talking about such tricky subjects so candidly, especially being open to share your personal experiences and how they have helped you to form your own beliefs.

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

This is an interesting one:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/2014/06/02/female-named-hurricanes-kill-more-than-male-because-people-dont-respect-them-study-finds/

[Ryrin]

Lol, Fnorrll. I think they should always be given male names to protect life and limb.

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

 

'It's simple, really. If you don't want to use birth control, don't use it. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one'.

 

 

????? What? Thats like saying: 'If you don't want people to be killed, don't kill them.... no it's not LIKE that, it IS that...

 

 

As for Taltos, dude, I'm trying SO hard to understand you but I really can't... sorry.

Hi, Jak!

 

We aren't talking about people walking around getting murdered. We are talking about very personal and intimate behavior. Using birth control does not equal murder in most people's eyes.

 

As for abortion, religions don't all agree when "life" begins. I have no issues with abortion, so why should I have to be legally bound by someone else's religious beliefs?

 

 

Hi Ryrin!

 

You see, this is why it is such a passionate subject for so many people. I believe that in abortion, someone is getting murdered and if I truly believe that, why wouldn't I fight to end it? Do you sees what I'm saying? I feel a moral obligation to fight for people who have no voices. I feel morally obligated to fight for people I believe are being murdered.