Asmos death again

[Fjaman]

Guess you´re thinking: Wow one more who dunnit post that doesn’t add anything to what has already been said. :D

I would anyways like to get your insight on mistakes I made while writing my arguments since I am clearly biased as to who did it.

 

I´ve have more and more come to suspect Moiraine as the most intuitively obvious suspect mostly based on the following arguments.

 

1. Asmo knew that the other choosen and possibly the dark one knew about his alleged betrayal.

2. His last words you? No! Seem to indicate that first he was surprised to see the person in question and then he was surprised of the person’s murderous intent. Would he have been surprised of the person’s intention if it was one of the choosen, a darkfriend or a golem? i think not.

3. Moiraine knew who he was so she wasn’t thrilled but accepted him just for the teaching he could give rand. Even though she would most likely want to kill him, Moiraine wasn’t on the best terms with Rand either so if she would have openly killed him Rand would probably have shut her out of his life.

4. Moiraine had asked careful questions about the future so she knew what was coming and what she had to do for Rand to survive to TG. Is there perhaps any chance she got an answer concerning asmo in Rands future?

5. RJ likes to use foreshadowing, that is something everybody should know by now, who was the first person using balefire? Yes you guessed it Moiraine, and how was that passage written, very similar to the death scene of asmo.

6. RJ has said that only a very few people has mailed him the correct killer, would that be the case if it was graendal, the most popular suspect.

7. To all you who think she couldn’t possibly have gotten to him I mean she had fallen into a mystical doorway…

Come on she fell to a place that can make your every wish come true, how much more obvious could it get than that.

 

So in conclusion she knew where he was, who he was, had motive, knew the future to some extent, was the first in the books to use balefire i.e. foreshadowing, could get her wish about killing him fulfilled.

[Cybertrolloc]

RJ likes to use foreshadowing' date=' that is something everybody should know by now, who was the first person using balefire?[/quote']

Nynaeve.

 

See also RJ's question of the week entry on the Finn, when RJ made his very few people got the correct answer quote and well lots of other stuff.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

I don't know why we need another thread for this, but...

 

I disagree with your intrepretation of Asmodean's last exclamation. The "You? No!" obviously means that he knew the killer and was surprised to see them. But the "No!" part could just be 'no, don't kill me' or it could be 'no, how can you possibly be here!' That phrase alone doesn't rule out any of the Forsaken because you allege that it indicates he was surprised they intended to kill him. And remember, we're talking split-second reaction time.

 

I have never bought the argument that Moiraine would want to kill Asmodean. She just wrote Rand a note saying "I'm going to die. I know you've got Asmo teaching you, but I guess you've got to learn. Just be careful." "P.S. - Nevermind, I'll just kill him myself." And if she learned of the future, learned that she would kill Asmodean from the 'Finns, then why would she have written that note to Rand at all?

 

Rather than type out the rest of the little issues I see with this theory, I'll just link to the FAQ: http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html#moir

 

I don't think it was Moiraine. The other theories are more dull though. :)

 

It irritated me that RJ was being so glib about this issue. "Well, all the clues are there. Even the most ignorant 5-year old child could figure out who did it." Well, obviously we CAN'T so just TELL US already. After a while, I can understand why he let us all sit here and argue amongst ourselves. But AMoL better have a chapter called "Remember That Day that Asmodean Died... Let's Re-Hash". Otherwise... it's just too much.

[Fjaman]

i guess the point i was trying to make was that if he knew that his murderer had the intent to kill him he wouldnt have bothered with the curious you, like what are you doing here, he would have directly jumped to the conclusion that he was a dead man and wouldnt have bothered with the being curious of the person in question. And i would assume that you are pretty curious and surprised when you see a woman that you saw disappear into a magical doorway not so long ago...

[RobertAlexWillis]

In the interest of being picky, didn't Rand use balefire before Nynaeve? Rand used it against the Darkhound in The Dragon Reborn, chapter 9. Nynaeve didn't use it until she hit the Myrdraal with it in The Dragon Reborn, chapter 39.

 

If I missed an earlier, please let me know ...

[Beowolf]

i guess the point i was trying to make was that if he knew that his murderer had the intent to kill him he wouldnt have bothered with the curious you, like what are you doing here, he would have directly jumped to the conclusion that he was a dead man and wouldnt have bothered with the being curious of the person in question. And i would assume that you are pretty curious and surprised when you see a woman that you saw disappear into a magical doorway not so long ago...

 

One word: Lanfear. :D She has motive, doesn't she? She fits the "obvious" category. There is no proof she wasn't out by that time. The "You? No!" can be interpreted as "No!, How could you possibly be here?!", or even "No!, How could I get killed now?!"

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

One word: Lanfear. :D She has motive' date=' doesn't she? She fits the "obvious" category. There is no proof she wasn't out by that time. The "You? No!" can be interpreted as "No!, How could you possibly be here?!", or even "No!, How could I get killed now?!"[/quote']

 

Well, supposing what he would or wouldn't have done if he saw a dead woman come to life is opening a can of worms. There are a hundred things he could/should have done... like, instead of talking, DUCK. I disagree that he WOULD HAVE not said anything upon viewing Lanfear/Moiraine. You can't make that statement as fact, it's just your opinion. My opinion is that if he saw either of those ladies, he would be shocked, wary, and with Lanfear fearful, but he wouldn't be sure that either wanted to kill him instantaneously, so yes he might have said "You? Impossible! Hey, don't kill me!"

 

Beowolf, I agree with your possible interpretations. They could be correct.

 

Lanfear is a possibility, but she would have to have used her wish. After she escaped from Finnland, she is Cyndane and is mindtrapped besides. And I'm just having problems with the 'I wish to kill Asmodean' idea. It seems wasteful. We know she wanted to kill him, but if she used one of her wishes to get free of her captors (as would be wise) then she would know she could just kill him once she got out.

 

Then again, that bitch is crazy, so maybe she did use her wish for that, just out of spite.

[Leopoled Boothe]

It irritated me that RJ was being so glib about this issue. "Well, all the clues are there. Even the most ignorant 5-year old child could figure out who did it." Well, obviously we CAN'T so just TELL US already. After a while, I can understand why he let us all sit here and argue amongst ourselves. But AMoL better have a chapter called "Remember That Day that Asmodean Died... Let's Re-Hash". Otherwise... it's just too much.

 

I have to agree with you on this point. If it is an important plot point and he wants to sustain a RAFO on the issue that's fine, but why keep insisting that it is intuativly obvious when clearly it is not. If it were so intuativly obvious then why after 13 years have so few people figured it out? I think the full quote should read "It should be intuativly obvious, if you are the one who wrote the book and therefore have ultimate knowlge of the WOT universe." "If not then you're pretty well screwed."

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

I have to agree with you on this point. If it is an important plot point and he wants to sustain a RAFO on the issue that's fine' date=' but why keep insisting that it is intuativly obvious when clearly it is not. If it were so intuativly obvious then why after 13 years have so few people figured it out? I think the full quote should read "It should be intuativly obvious, if you are the one who wrote the book and therefore have ultimate knowlge of the WOT universe." "If not then you're pretty well screwed."[/quote']

 

Exactly. Feed us an RAFO and we will sit in expectation and happily banter amongst ourselves. But don't make us feel stupid for not having immediately figured it out.

 

At this point we don't even know if we WILL find out in the last book. :cry:

[RobertAlexWillis]

If it were so intuativly obvious then why after 13 years have so few people figured it out?

 

Lol ... some people have.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

If it were so intuativly obvious then why after 13 years have so few people figured it out?

 

Lol ... some people have.

 

OK' date=' well if it's so 'intuitively obvious' why hasn't EVERYONE figured it out. Why isn't there a concensus? Graendal seems to be the biggest concensus, but she's not a runaway favorite by any means.[/color']

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Well, I take that back. 41% at the poll here is a big chunk of supporters.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK, well if it's so 'intuitively obvious' why hasn't EVERYONE figured it out.

 

The only response I could give to that will offend alot of people.

 

Why isn't there a concensus? Graendal seems to be the biggest concensus, but she's not a runaway favorite by any means.

 

In the "Who killed Asmodean" poll, Graendal has nearly triple the total of the nearest contender (41% to Lanfear's 14%). Thats a significant margin.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Gar ... you posted while I was posting.

[isleofjib]

OK' date=' well if it's so 'intuitively obvious' why hasn't EVERYONE figured it out.[/quote']

 

The only response I could give to that will offend alot of people.

 

LOL. that cracked me up. thx for the laugh.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Lol ... some people have.

 

Yes some people have figured it out, but figured is the key word here. I think very few, if any, of those who have figured it out would say that it was in any way obvious (yes Rob I know that you will probably say it was, but as often is the case you are the exception that make the rule ;) ). Identifing Asmo's killer does indeed take of figuring, it is not obvious.

[Trib4l]

While I used to ascribe to the Lanfear theory, I changed my mind after some re-reads of the meetings of the Forsaken.

 

Pretty much it came down to Graendal's desire for self preservation, timing and opportunity, and her apparent self-assured knowledge of his demise from a first-person POV at one of the meetings. Those were the deciding factors for me, once I looked at if from a far more "simple" perspective.

 

Lanfear to me had been an obvious choice after a comment she made prior to the doorway incident - also knowing where she went, I "figured" that she had gained her revenge against the one who trained her would be puppy.

[DocBean]

Do any of you feel like Asmo. really turned back to the Light?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't. His self-loyalty dictated loyalty to Rand though, from an action standpoint. His motivation is the difference. He was "loyal" to Rand for the same reason that he went over to the Shadow: pure self-preservation. He went to the Shadow for the promise of immortality, in other words, to stay alive as long as possible. He was loyal to Rand because he genuinely believed, at that point, that helping Rand would keep him alive as long as possible.

 

Asmodean was loyal to himself, first, last, and always, and fear was his defining characteristic. Fear of pain, and fear of death.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Do any of you feel like Asmo. really turned back to the Light?

 

There was no repentance or return to the Light on behalf of Asmodean. As Robert said' date=' his allegiance to Rand was based solely on self preservation. I think that passage, right before he died, says it all.

 

[u']The Fires of Heaven[/u] Chapter 56 "Glowing Embers"

Idly - but with a shiver, too - he wondered whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man. He did not think so. Immortality was gone. That was a gift of the Great Lord; he used that name in his head, whatever al'Thor demanded on his tongue. That was proof enough that he was himself.

 

...

 

It was not that he had been reborn as a new man at all, but he would cling to that tuft of grass on the cliff's brink as long as he could. The roots would give eventually, the long fall would come, but until then he was still alive.

 

To quote Moiraine, "He is the same man now that he always was." Asmodean's own thoughts confirm that statement to be true.

[DocBean]

Good quote. It's too bad though, I'd like to think Rand is something more than a great channeler that won't turn to the Dark. If he's supposed to be a Jesus like character he should be able to save one of them. I was hoping Asmo was the one.

 

Somewhere in the books it was said that the Creator and Dark One had two Champions that fought the battle time after time Rand and Ishy. I remember there being a saying that the Creator doesn't get involved, which kind of confuses me as to how the DO will be involved in the Last Battle. I'm under the belief that he will never break free, he never has in the past. In Strike at Shayl Goul it said something like the Dark One was never free enough to reach more than an arm out onto the world. Maybe gives you some sort of idea of scale of the Dark One, or maybe it's figurtive. I always thought the true battle would be between the two Champions.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I'm under the belief that he will never break free, he never has in the past. In Strike at Shayl Goul it said something like the Dark One was never free enough to reach more than an arm out onto the world. Maybe gives you some sort of idea of scale of the Dark One, or maybe it's figurtive. I always thought the true battle would be between the two Champions

.

 

It is very true that the DO has never broken free before, but I think this time he will. That is what will make TG so special and why this particular 3rd age will not be just another turning of The Wheel.

[The Outsider]

which kind of confuses me as to how the DO will be involved in the Last Battle.

 

Shaidar Haran, I think, may be the answer to that question... He seems in many ways to be an extension of the DO himself.

[isleofjib]

The Fires of Heaven Chapter 56 "Glowing Embers"

Idly - but with a shiver' date=' too - he wondered whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man. He did not think so. Immortality was gone. That was a gift of the Great Lord; he used that name in his head, whatever al'Thor demanded on his tongue. That was proof enough that he was himself.

 

...

 

It was not that he had been reborn as a new man at all, but he would cling to that tuft of grass on the cliff's brink as long as he could. The roots would give eventually, the long fall would come, but until then he was still alive.[/quote']

 

see, i can read his quotes and agree that he hasn't changed over to the light for the exact reasons RAW gave. however, i see in his statement some confusion and doubt, too. in his own mind, he has to prove to himself that his is still a FS, which i find very telling. his wondering if he has been reborn sure seems like he's wondering if he could change. and of all the FS, asmo is certainly the least evil. as RAW says, he's concerned about himself and his immortality. not about world domination, power, greed, killing, etc, like the other FS are. he's just mostly scared of dying.

 

it is interesting and i had thought there might be a chance of him getting redemption...of course, that didn't last long. :)