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szilard

Are they dogs/slaves/servants/workers/partners?

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- and the fact that the Warders are, quite clearly, with the exception of Birgitte, who is far from a standard example of a Warder for a many reasons (which I will list in simple and easy to understand terms for you if you feel this, too, is a "logical fallacy" and that, instead, she is somehow a great example of a typical Warder) never treated as equals and, many times, not even treated as partners,

Source needed.

 

Btw what "fallacy" exactly would you be referring to above?

 

 

Show me a source that shows most Warders be treated as equals. Hell, show me multiple sources where they're treated as equals - and I do not mean "junior partners", I mean equals - where their voices carry as much weight with their leash holder as the leash holder's voice - and prove me wrong.

 

Your little game can be played back at you, Suttree...so unless you can prove otherwise, my opinion that they are never treated as equals (other than Birgitte, who is still treated as "less than" Elayne and has to defer to her almost always), stands. 

 

 

Ok this is getting pretty strange. First off pointing out a logical fallacy in someone's argument is not being condescending. Let me make this very clear. I am sorry that you seem to have taken such offense to my post. It was not my intention and I hope that we can move on in working through this conversation.

 

Second you seem to be arguing repeatedly against stances no one in this thread has taken. Not sure why I need to repeat this but as I said while it's a partnership each situation is unique and we don't have enough info to make the type of sweeping generalizations presented in your posts. Barid did a nice job of summing things up, we are aligned in our thinking on the topic. 

 

Now the claim of warders "never being treated as equals", breaking their will is "normal", etc. are yours hence the burden of proof lies with you. That is how it works.  Correct me if I'm wrong but your thinking essentialy seems to be following these lines.

 

Merise does not treat Narishma as an equal.

Narishma is a Warder.

Warders are never treated as equals.

Edited by Suttree

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So to sum up, 

 

We can all agree that the potential exists to horrendously abuse the bond, and that in the past it happened, to the extent it was almost on a par with compulsion.

 

On screen we have evidence of equal partnerships - Lan/Nyn through their marriage contract, Elayne/Birgette (at least some of the occasional inequality is due to the fact that Elayne is Queen of Andor, I'd argue the black sister and her warder but I can't remember their names right now.

 

We also have examples where it's horribly distorted, Merise & Narishma being the prime example, but also Alanna/Rand (made worse by every AesSedai who came into contact with them after, knew about the bond and did nothing to force her to release it)

 

But we don't have enough information to make a valid comparison.  The only warder we regularly get POVs from is Rand, and that's not an average example, nor is it a normal relationship (with any of his bonders)

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Second you seem to be arguing repeatedly against stances no one in this thread has taken. Not sure why I need to repeat this but as I said while it's a partnership each situation is unique and we don't have enough info to make the type of sweeping generalizations presented in your posts. Barid did a nice job of summing things up, we are aligned in our thinking on the topic. 

 

Now the claim of warders "never being treated as equals", breaking their will is "normal", etc. are yours hence the burden of proof lies with you. That is how it works.  Correct me if I'm wrong but your thinking essentialy seems to be following these lines.

 

 

 

So to sum up, 

 

We can all agree that the potential exists to horrendously abuse the bond, and that in the past it happened, to the extent it was almost on a par with compulsion.

 

On screen we have evidence of equal partnerships - Lan/Nyn through their marriage contract, Elayne/Birgette (at least some of the occasional inequality is due to the fact that Elayne is Queen of Andor, I'd argue the black sister and her warder but I can't remember their names right now.

 

We also have examples where it's horribly distorted, Merise & Narishma being the prime example, but also Alanna/Rand (made worse by every AesSedai who came into contact with them after, knew about the bond and did nothing to force her to release it)

 

But we don't have enough information to make a valid comparison.  The only warder we regularly get POVs from is Rand, and that's not an average example, nor is it a normal relationship (with any of his bonders)

I generally agree, especially that we lack sufficient Warder POVs to really make draw any valid conclusions.  However, I would say that a lot of the 'typical' Aes Sedai Warder interactions we see err towards the idea that Warders are treated somewhat like pets.  I think we do see sufficient evidence to make some broad generalisations, even though there are obviously exceptions and extreme cases (e.g. Elayne-Birgitte at one end of the spectrum and Merise-Narishma at the other).

 

I think it is somewhat telling that the only examples we have of a Warder being an equal partner are unusual cases in and of themselves - Elayne-Birgitte, Nynaeve-Lan,

and Androl-Pevara

(and possibly Rand-Elayne-Aviendha-Min if we can count Rand as a Warder).  Elayne bonds a Hero of the Horn while she is still an Accepted.  She also does it to save Birgitte's life and does so without Birgitte agreeing to accept a Warder's role.  Elayne is much less likely to treat Birgitte as a subordinate because a) she isn't a proper Aes Sedai; b) Birgitte has lifetimes of experience beyond what Elayne has; and c) while Birgitte chooses to act as Elayne's Warder, I don't think Elayne felt like there was any obligation for Birgitte to do so.

 

Nynaeve has never been a conventional Aes Sedai, and from her conversation with Daigan I think we can see that believes in treating everyone with respect.  Furthermore, she was Lan's lover and then wife before she was his bondholder, which suggests their relationship was founded on mutual respect and an equal partnership before they were bonded.  

Androl and Pevara have both bonded each other, and Androl is a channeler anyway, so the compulsion part of the Aes Sedai bond wouldn't work on him

.  The same goes for Rand and his women, plus as with Lan-Nynaeve, they were all in loving/equal/respectful relationships before being bonded. 

 

I don't think any of these cases can be used to give us much information on the typical Aes Sedai-Warder relationship.  However, I do think we get a fairly good picture from little bits and pieces which reflect more generally on the Warder bond, e.g. statements like the idea that it was common for Aes Sedai to be possessive and dislike other Sisters commanding their Warders (objectification of their Warders), the suggestion that anything but the lightest form of compulsion was frowned upon (the implication that light compulsion is fine), Cadsuane's thoughts on Alanna's forced bonding of Rand (its wrong, but the usefulness outweighs the wrongness as she doesn't consider undoing it, and instead contemplates having the bond passed to her - also against Rand's will), the acceptance of Merise's treatment of her Warders by other Aes Sedai (the suggestion that while unusual, her disgusting treatment of Narishma is really perfectly acceptable), the numerous times we see Aes Sedai giving orders to their Warders but never the opposite (apart from Elayne-Birgitte).  These little observations suggest to me that in general, the Warder is somewhere between a significantly lesser partner in the relationship, and somewhat of a 'pet'.

 

EDITED to add spoiler tags

Edited by BFG
spoilers

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 I understand the need to ward off bandits and the like, but the message that a personal killing machine brings undermines the appreciation from the people the Aes Sedai (unjustly) demand

 

Curious as to why you claim the bolded?

 

Which part? The Aes Sedai wanting appreciation or the unjust demand? I'm just gonna have to apologize and say I can't answer you either way. I take long breaks between books so my memory is fuzzy, and the only clear examples I can think of right now happened in the last book I read, but there's only two of them. I have never liked people with God-complexes, and it seems almost every woman in the series has one, Aes Sedai being among them. I have bias against Aes Sedai, so I put almost everything they do in a bad light. I'm basically a tumblr feminist when it comes to Aes Sedai.

 

 

Sidenote: I do not think we should use Nynaeve and Lan as an example of an "equal partnership". The two fell in love before Nynaeve became an Aes Sedai, so she didn't have the Aes Sedai specific haughty and superior attitude yet, and to Lan she was just a woman. If anything, Lan had the upper hand in their relationship before bonding, which is, as far as we know, not how any other Aes Sedai/Warder relationship has been. Also, nice subtle troll by whoever said Birgette and Elayne are examples of variety in Warder bonds. Birgette is not a Warder. 

Edited by HeadlessLover

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Second you seem to be arguing repeatedly against stances no one in this thread has taken. Not sure why I need to repeat this but as I said while it's a partnership each situation is unique and we don't have enough info to make the type of sweeping generalizations presented in your posts. Barid did a nice job of summing things up, we are aligned in our thinking on the topic. 

 

Now the claim of warders "never being treated as equals", breaking their will is "normal", etc. are yours hence the burden of proof lies with you. That is how it works.  Correct me if I'm wrong but your thinking essentialy seems to be following these lines.

 

 

 

So to sum up, 

 

We can all agree that the potential exists to horrendously abuse the bond, and that in the past it happened, to the extent it was almost on a par with compulsion.

 

On screen we have evidence of equal partnerships - Lan/Nyn through their marriage contract, Elayne/Birgette (at least some of the occasional inequality is due to the fact that Elayne is Queen of Andor, I'd argue the black sister and her warder but I can't remember their names right now.

 

We also have examples where it's horribly distorted, Merise & Narishma being the prime example, but also Alanna/Rand (made worse by every AesSedai who came into contact with them after, knew about the bond and did nothing to force her to release it)

 

But we don't have enough information to make a valid comparison.  The only warder we regularly get POVs from is Rand, and that's not an average example, nor is it a normal relationship (with any of his bonders)

I generally agree, especially that we lack sufficient Warder POVs to really make draw any valid conclusions.  However, I would say that a lot of the 'typical' Aes Sedai Warder interactions we see err towards the idea that Warders are treated somewhat like pets.  I think we do see sufficient evidence to make some broad generalisations, even though there are obviously exceptions and extreme cases (e.g. Elayne-Birgitte at one end of the spectrum and Merise-Narishma at the other).

 

I think it is somewhat telling that the only examples we have of a Warder being an equal partner are unusual cases in and of themselves - Elayne-Birgitte, Nynaeve-Lan,

and Androl-Pevara

(and possibly Rand-Elayne-Aviendha-Min if we can count Rand as a Warder).  Elayne bonds a Hero of the Horn while she is still an Accepted.  She also does it to save Birgitte's life and does so without Birgitte agreeing to accept a Warder's role.  Elayne is much less likely to treat Birgitte as a subordinate because a) she isn't a proper Aes Sedai; b) Birgitte has lifetimes of experience beyond what Elayne has; and c) while Birgitte chooses to act as Elayne's Warder, I don't think Elayne felt like there was any obligation for Birgitte to do so.

 

Nynaeve has never been a conventional Aes Sedai, and from her conversation with Daigan I think we can see that believes in treating everyone with respect.  Furthermore, she was Lan's lover and then wife before she was his bondholder, which suggests their relationship was founded on mutual respect and an equal partnership before they were bonded.  

Androl and Pevara have both bonded each other, and Androl is a channeler anyway, so the compulsion part of the Aes Sedai bond wouldn't work on him

.  The same goes for Rand and his women, plus as with Lan-Nynaeve, they were all in loving/equal/respectful relationships before being bonded. 

 

I don't think any of these cases can be used to give us much information on the typical Aes Sedai-Warder relationship.  However, I do think we get a fairly good picture from little bits and pieces which reflect more generally on the Warder bond, e.g. statements like the idea that it was common for Aes Sedai to be possessive and dislike other Sisters commanding their Warders (objectification of their Warders), the suggestion that anything but the lightest form of compulsion was frowned upon (the implication that light compulsion is fine), Cadsuane's thoughts on Alanna's forced bonding of Rand (its wrong, but the usefulness outweighs the wrongness as she doesn't consider undoing it, and instead contemplates having the bond passed to her - also against Rand's will), the acceptance of Merise's treatment of her Warders by other Aes Sedai (the suggestion that while unusual, her disgusting treatment of Narishma is really perfectly acceptable), the numerous times we see Aes Sedai giving orders to their Warders but never the opposite (apart from Elayne-Birgitte).  These little observations suggest to me that in general, the Warder is somewhere between a significantly lesser partner in the relationship, and somewhat of a 'pet'.

 

EDITED to add spoiler tags

 

 

Some excellent observations...  

 

I agree that the potential of the bond is dire, but the norm, I'm not so sure.

 

At some stage I have to separate the fact that the Aes Sedai outrank the Warders so it's rarely going to be an equal partnership, the ones where we see that it is generally have unique circumstances that are unlikely to be repeated.  But that's a far cry from being treated as pets.  My memory is failing me again (so this may be misremembered) but I'd argue that the warder that Gawyn trains with between attacking the Rebels outside TV has what I assume to be a standard relationship with his Aes Sedai, on the one hand she makes the decisions, but is open to his suggestions (for example the choice of a second warder is his, if Gawyn accepted then they'd all move to Caemlyn in order to accomodate him, etc), 

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 They are not supposed to be equals and everyone who applies to become a Warder knows it. The Aes Sedai are the employers and, the ones with real power (magical, political, economical). The Warders are the bodyguards, the muscle.

 

 

Also, nice subtle troll by whoever said Birgette and Elayne are examples of variety in Warder bonds. Birgette is not a Warder.

Birgette isn't, but Birgitte certainly is. Is this some elaborate sarcasm or something?

Edited by David Selig

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RJ actually put two characters with the same name one letter off in the same series? This is huh... wow.

Also, Warder bond =/= a 'Warder' (Think: Is Rand Alanna's Warder?). There are many things that go into making a Warder that Birgitte does not have. You can make an omelette out of just eggs, but it won't be a good omelette.

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RJ actually put two characters with the same name one letter off in the same series? This is huh... wow.

Also, Warder bond =/= a 'Warder' (Think: Is Rand Alanna's Warder?). There are many things that go into making a Warder that Birgitte does not have. You can make an omelette out of just eggs, but it won't be a good omelette.

What are these things?

 Everyone in the books considers Birgitte a Warder, including herself.

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I always thought of warders/AS as a fantasy version of bodyguards/celebrity. The power dynamic is very much skewed, but a warder is in many ways lucky to be the companion of this person who travels the world and dines with nobles and all the interesting folk.

 

That said though there are some majorly messed up aspects to the bond from the warder's side that makes the relationship morally objectionable: the inevitability of death once the AS passes, the inability of the warder to mask the other's emotions unlike vice versa, and of course compulsion.

 

Merise does not treat Narishma as an equal.

Narishma is a Warder.

Warders are never treated as equals.

 

Merise is that terrible boss that wants to own your whole life and treats you as property. Narishma can always ask her to free him, but hasn't so...shrugs. 

Edited by driedraspberry

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Warders are attack dogs pure and simple, if the Warder in question is lucky...then their leash and collor are made of velvet. The Aes sadi see themselves as leash holders, as an organization they are truely answerable to none but their own and even the highest mocharchs pays them difrence. They react like some great pervesion has taken place when they learn that the Asha'man had captured and bonded sisters,not mearly because filithy Male-channelers are touching sisters in their spritual no-no places with their filithly Saidin;That is mearly adding insult to injury. It is because some one else is now holding Aes Sadi by the leash, a position that for the past three thousand years has justly been theirs.

Edited by Asha'manKill!

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