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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Jason Denzel

The "OMG I just finished!" Thread

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I disagree with those perspectives.  Try reading a deposition.  The dialogue had humor, tension, apprehension, and passion.  I reveled in much of it.  Especially Mat's letter to Elayne (not precisely dialogue), Egwene and Verin's last conversation, Rand's reunions with first Perrin then Mat.  I thoroughly enjoyed the dialogue.  Please remember, fantasy is not in and of itself juvenile, but it is geared to a readership that will historically draw 12-21 year old males.  I don't need Faulkner or Hemingway in Fantasy.  I just need to laugh, cry, cringe and smile.  BS's dialogue accomplished all of that for me.

You are 100% entitled to your opinion, but just to give you a head's up that some of the passages you've highlighted are among the most heavily criticised of BS's writing.  A lot of people (myself included) felt that these scenes essentially gave us caricatures of the characters.  And the reunion between Mat and Rand felt like it came perilously close to breaching the 4th wall.

 

 

 

I am actually learning this now.  I honestly did not know he handled the Pevara/Androl story himself and that he interjected himself more than I suspected.  Is it true that RJ actually wrote the majority of the Ghenjei raid?  I am certainly open to discussing what was added and what was necessary or not, but I will not go so far as to stoop to the level of calling his efforts fan faction.  I find that petty, as stated supra.

TJ and BS have been very hesitant to admit exactly who wrote what, which I think is probably the right thing to do (however frustrating it may be for fans).  I seem to recall that we have had confirmation that much of the Tower of Ghenjei sequence was RJ, though.

 

I don't think calling it 'fan fiction' is necessarily intended as an insult.  I've used that phrase myself and certainly didn't intend it as such.  I used it to convey the idea that much of the plot of the las three books is not anything that was planned by RJ.  BS had to come up with a lot of material out of nothing, or with only very vague notes.  As a fan of the series, he is going to be subconsciously influenced on some level to write scenes how he would like them to turn out.  And given he had minimal notes to guide him on much of what happened, he didn't have many alternatives.  But that does make it very similar to fan fiction in my eyes.

Edited by Rhienne

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I have a healthy suspension of disbelief.  Nothing comes close to the 4th wall for me.  You know, Mat and Rand had not spoken since Rand sent Mat after Elayne in Salidar.  So much happened, that the competitive yet sarcastic conversation juxtaposed with the pivotal plot point between Rand and Fortuona worked for me.  That quote from BS about writing the HIM out of him resonated.  I will reread the series at some point in the near future, and maybe then I will see it.  I personally enjoyed it thoroughly.  It must be my sense of humor and tolerance for the position BS was put in simply undertaking the task.

 

As for fan fiction, my take is that fan fiction has been used as a slur against writers.  Many authors publicly decry any fan fiction being written, e.g. GRRM.  Thus, I consider any accusation of a person on the byline being a fan fiction author an insult.  Just my humble opinion.

 

I actually have not read Bakker or Abercrombie yet.  I would certainly welcome the suggestion of which author/series I should tackle next.  Also, please don't get me wrong about my impression of fantasy.  I read comics from early reading years until my mid twenties. I never read much fantasy.  I read LotR and the Hobbit.  The Illiad, Odyssey, Aeneid, Beowulf and Nibelungenlied in comparative lit at UGA ended my fantasy days until I read ASOIF.  Now, I'm hooked.  I read so much case law and transcripts at work that all I want now is fun characters and great epic stories.  I certainly welcome great writing.  Obviously, GRRM has been peerless so far for me.  So, please by all means tell me who you feel is the must read author and series that I need to read next.   

Edited by Ghettoe

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What a moronic book. WoT really showed its level as a Saturday morning cartoon series about TEH EVILZ. The Dark One speaking in all caps was bad enough, but then Rand started doing it - both sounding ultra cheesy and dumb. Rand's and the DO's battle of wills was completely ridiculous, and made me think that even Buffy the Vampire Slayer wouldn't sink that low. The cast of sitcom characters never stopped bickering with each other, and the Dark One and the Forsaken completely lacked any depth or motivation. The last Battle boiled down to characters endlessly killing Trollocks en masse. Out of all the main characters only Egwene and her personality-free loverbuddy died. The prose was beyond good and evil, reading the novel felt like reading a description from the back of a video game case. The end result was that Rand came down to the DO's turf, stuck a thing in a thing, and the prison was remade anew. Great. It's funny that he originally had no way idea of doing it and didn't really have any sort of a plan, but main character powers did not fail him.

 

That's kind of a narrow-minded view. It was a battle of wills. The capital letters encapsulates that the dark one is not really a character. When Rand begins the capital letter, he transcends from mere human character to will. When Rand leaves in the end, he is not really Rand, but everyman or every person, or idea of every person. He willed his pipe alight; that in itself is powerful--not in the "I am a powerful character and can weave the pattern" but he is a symbol of will. So, Rand really did die but was left as a blur between a character and an idea.

 

War is all endless killings in mass. War is not poetic.

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Agreed. One of the more emotional parts for me was when Rand held Elayne's belly and thought about his kids. Would not have had much of an impact on me two years ago. 

 

Other big moment for me, Bela's death. WTF? Really?!?! You let that obnoxious w***e Faile live but not the horse that carried the Dragon Reborn before anyone even knew who he was. Hopefully she is a Hero in The Horse Dream.

Holy Christ. Why do so many people find Faile and Egwene annoying or abnoxious? I found none of that, from any character for that matter. I guess that says something about the person thinking that. Faile was from a culture of hardened people, so i totally understood her and actually found every part of every character charming, because, just like in our world, there are people of every type of flavor. Light, people rather have a a horse live than a human character? 'ta hell does that say about a person?

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Just finished today. 

 

What a book! What a series!

 

First up, the deaths.

 

-Siuan (didn't think she was going to die, but a fitting death)

-Bryne (see above)

-Gawyn (YES! Demandred is the first Forsaken to kill off a main character. About flippin' time)

-Galad (oh wait, no he didn't die...thought he did. Kinda wished he had)

-Bela (WTF! NOOOOOOOOO!)

-Rhuarc (more surprised he was Compulsed than anything)

-Romanda/Lelaine (fitting they both died on the same page)

-Birgitte (a bit shocking)

-Egwene (biggest surprise death IMO. I rather liked her so it was sudden an unexpected)

 

I'm sure I'm missing a few of the good guys, but the fates of the bad guys and my reactions:

 

-Demandred (never imagined Lan would kill him. Thought it was going to be Mat)

-Graendal/Hesalam (liked how the DO just turned her into some ugly witch. Liked even more how her own Compulsion turned against her. A fitting end for her)

-Lanfear (the only Forsaken I was genuinely sad to see die. For a while, I was really hoping she was going to help the good guys out. In the final scene with her, despite obvious ploys toward Perrin, I thought something in her was going to help her help Perrin help Rand defeat Moridin, but instead she took a different path and I was upset that she didn't come back to the Light as had been hypothesized by many)

-Moghedian (she got by well enough, but it was funny to see her collared in the end)

-Taim (booted up to Chosen. Egwene raped him in that fight)

-Padan Fain (a bit sudden. He was in the book for like one chapter. As if forgotten the whole time. And in the same chapter he gets killed off like 5 pages later)

-Slayer (a bit redudant. I feel like he should have been finished in Towers of Midnight instead)

-Alviarin and co (eh, a weird conclusion for them)

-Mellar (lol, that "fake Birgitte" you killed was actually the real one...and she killed you right back)

-Moridin (fitting I suppose that he should get death and Rand should live)

 

 

Anyways, Perrin's chapter were the most interesting of the three ta'veren this time around. Mat and Rand were close at second and/or third (probably Mat's were better). Rand, despite being the protagonist, had most of his focus on the DO (obviously) and those were few and far between at times, so we got a lot closer to Perrin and Mat, and I liked that.

 

Egwene was great, especially in her demise. An unexpected but powerful one.

 

Demandred proved to be the most badass of the Forsaken after all. The only one to kill any main characters...and the Sharan plotline. Yes, just yes! He was the most capable of the Forsaken and that makes him the best one of them all.

 

Did the Tinkers find their song after all? Don't really care for that plot regardless, but I'm thinking it had something to do with the Ogiers...maybe?

 

Androl and Pevara taking center stage in the first third of the book. That was interesting and they're probably the best couple in the book. 

 

Cadsuane being asked to Amyrlin...might work.

 

Graendal accomplishing something (with taking out the Great Generals) was pretty satisfying.

 

Lanfear played so many heartstrings. I didn't know what side she was on but I was hopeful that it was the Light, just so we could actually have a Forsaken come back to the Light

 

Moiraine's return got the proper reaction it deserved

 

Mat's and Tuon's storyline definitely developed nicely

 

Moghedien being absent for the majority of the novel fit her character very well. Should have known it was her being the spy for the Seanchan.

 

The Dark One seems less bad than imagined. It's like an essence that exists in everyone and in a way it is necessary for balance, like Rand saw when he decided killing Shai'tan would be worse than keeping him alive.

 

Rand's ending is a bit bizarre but rather satisfying for him. A great way to end the series with the whole wind thing. But it was a ending. GREAT!

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I’ve just finished it. A final re-read through the series and other commitments have meant I’m a little late to the party, but my first thoughts are that while there’s lots to enjoy, there’s a fair amount of disappointment too.

 

First though, a few points in ‘defence’ and recognition of RJ and BS. Principle amongst these is that I feel I may have rather rushed through it. As the Eelfinn might say, I didn’t ‘savour’ it. I’m quite a slow reader normally, but blasted through the book in what were essentially four very long sittings (a record for me). By the time I finished, it was early in the morning and I was pretty tired. That was a mistake. Next up, I think there was always a risk that my level of expectation was too high, particularly since I’ve enjoyed the last three books so much after a bit of a lull during WH and CoT. Finally, the story itself; how do you end it? There’s a lot to cram in there, which is really my main problem with the book.

The overwhelming feeling I have is of something of a rushed ending. Reading it I kept thinking ‘he’s running out of pages’. Lo and behold at the end there’s very little on the Great Hunt, Padan Fain pops up and is immediately killed cheaply, Siuan runs into a tent and dies and there’s no real ending. After 300 pages of constant battle and death, there’s no winding down. For me it was simply too much finished too abruptly. Right up to The Last Battle chapter I was enthralled, but there was too little light relief within action that was too repetitive.

Anyway, as I’ve said, I loved the first 2/3rds. Androl and Pevara’s part in it was particularly good. As a couple, they’re one of the only ones in the series that make believable sense to me (Gareth and Siuan, Rand and Min being the other ones). The Sharans and Demandred was excellent, though this could have done with more backfilling of the story after the event. And, though it pains me to say it, as she was one of my favourite characters, Egwene’s death was amazing and a beautiful part of the final section. I also think it was right that there are unanswered questions and while I personally think Rand should have died, I’m kind of glad he didn’t – though I’m pleased that I guessed how he was going to seal the DO and get out alive!

 

For such a large set piece battle, I think BS managed to convey the scale (both big and small) of the fight. I never felt like I didn’t know what was going on where, which is an enormous credit to him. Olver blowing the horn was a master-stroke, and while I had an inkling that Mat probably wasn’t linked to it anymore, it felt a perfect way for that story arc to play out (yay for Noel too!). There were lots of other good bits too.

 

Basically, I need to re-read it, but my gut reaction is that I think it needed another book! There I’ve said it. Now where did I leave that rope…

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I think that the material in TGS and TOM could have been distilled into one and a half books, leaving room for a book and a half for the plot covered in AMOL.  This would have allowed for a lot more "winding down" time at the end, which I think many fans would have greatly appreciated.  The Fain/Last Hunt resolutions could have been stretched out a little bit, and we could have had more time with Rand/Moridin.  I was also desperately hoping that we would get more information as to exactly how the Age of Legends confrontation between Lews Therin and the DO played out.  Did they converse just like Rand and the DO did?  Did LTT and Ishamael have a philosophical discussion re: the nature of the Wheel?  Or was it simply wham bam seal you ma'am?  In any event, an additional 200-300 pages would have done wonders for AMOL.   

 

One other thing that I noticed in a re-read of the series is that we only get one actual, onscreen conversation between the DO and any of the Forsaken, that being Demandred in Lord of Chaos.  Does anyone else find that odd?  I was hoping for at least some discussion between the DO and Moridin, since he appears to have a much "closer" relationship with the DO (can anyone be "close" with the DO?) than any of the other Forsaken.

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I’ve just finished it. A final re-read through the series and other commitments have meant I’m a little late to the party, but my first thoughts are that while there’s lots to enjoy, there’s a fair amount of disappointment too.

 

First though, a few points in ‘defence’ and recognition of RJ and BS. Principle amongst these is that I feel I may have rather rushed through it. As the Eelfinn might say, I didn’t ‘savour’ it. I’m quite a slow reader normally, but blasted through the book in what were essentially four very long sittings (a record for me). By the time I finished, it was early in the morning and I was pretty tired. That was a mistake. Next up, I think there was always a risk that my level of expectation was too high, particularly since I’ve enjoyed the last three books so much after a bit of a lull during WH and CoT. Finally, the story itself; how do you end it? There’s a lot to cram in there, which is really my main problem with the book.

 

The overwhelming feeling I have is of something of a rushed ending. Reading it I kept thinking ‘he’s running out of pages’. Lo and behold at the end there’s very little on the Great Hunt, Padan Fain pops up and is immediately killed cheaply, Siuan runs into a tent and dies and there’s no real ending. After 300 pages of constant battle and death, there’s no winding down. For me it was simply too much finished too abruptly. Right up to The Last Battle chapter I was enthralled, but there was too little light relief within action that was too repetitive.

 

Anyway, as I’ve said, I loved the first 2/3rds. Androl and Pevara’s part in it was particularly good. As a couple, they’re one of the only ones in the series that make believable sense to me (Gareth and Siuan, Rand and Min being the other ones). The Sharans and Demandred was excellent, though this could have done with more backfilling of the story after the event. And, though it pains me to say it, as she was one of my favourite characters, Egwene’s death was amazing and a beautiful part of the final section. I also think it was right that there are unanswered questions and while I personally think Rand should have died, I’m kind of glad he didn’t – though I’m pleased that I guessed how he was going to seal the DO and get out alive!

 

For such a large set piece battle, I think BS managed to convey the scale (both big and small) of the fight. I never felt like I didn’t know what was going on where, which is an enormous credit to him. Olver blowing the horn was a master-stroke, and while I had an inkling that Mat probably wasn’t linked to it anymore, it felt a perfect way for that story arc to play out (yay for Noel too!). There were lots of other good bits too.

 

Basically, I need to re-read it, but my gut reaction is that I think it needed another book! There I’ve said it. Now where did I leave that rope…

Well said.  Your take really resonates. 

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Just finished. Loved the last book, I was wondering how they would tie so many loose ends in a single book. Apparently by making nearly the entire book one giant climax.

 

The ending was good but for me the real defining moment of the series was Rand's realization on the peak of Dragon Mount. That was an incredibly powerful moment that was just impossible to out-do.

 

I really wish there had been a bit more on what happened after the Dark One's defeat but I suppose they wanted to leave that to our imaginations.

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I loved it, been reading it for a very long time. I loved the pace, loved the fact that it was non stop action(which makes sense since, these final three books were supposed to be one book so this final book is like the final chapters of the whole).. I was going into the book thinking that at least one if not two of the three woman in rands life would die, also cadsuane, Lan, Galad and Rand would also die. So going into it thinking that it was pretty cool he didnt kill them off(dont always have to have the heros die, its nice to see them survive). On another note the ones who did die hit pretty close to my heart(hard not to when I have been reading for 15 years)..

 

On the othre side, am side it wasnt jordan who finished it(loved how sanderson did it so its not a knock), with it being this good with sanderson, just makes me wonder how good it would have been if jordan could have finished. I also am sad for the excitement of the books coming out, it always sucked waiting two years for each to come up, but thinking back on it, the excitement and happyness i always had when the books did come out will be missed.

 

So, this series will be missed, (of course ill probably still re-read it every year lol). 

Aaaaah, well said, there were some bits I wasn't into but overall I was so pleased someone was finishing it, and although it would have been better left in its creator's hands, I very much enjoyed it with BS on board, and the horror and sadness I felt when I heard that RJ was dying was appeased a little ( for the story's sake, obviously not for the people who knew and loved him) when I heard a while later that another was taking on the task

It's been a long time, hope it's been a good one for all of you.

 

Just wanted to share my joy with you. I LOVED the book. If you are reading this Brandon... Thank you very, very much for taking on this huge task and for leaving us with a great finish.

 

... alltough... did you really have to kill Egwene???!

Again, cheers and well done, xxxxxxx

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I finished AMoL a few weeks ago. And now I have nothing to do with my life.

 

There were some parts of the ending I liked and some I didn't. I really wish that Egwene and Siuan wouldn't have died :'(

 

And even though I didn't expect it to actually happen, I really wanted all 3 ta'veren to end up being together again in the end because they hadn't been since book 4 and they were such good friends...that made me kinda sad.

 

But I'm glad Rand didn't die. And that a lot of other characters didn't either, I thought way more would.

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WOW!

 

What an awesome book. Never have I been more satisfied with an ending to a fantasy series. The book is intense, pure violence and heartache. I nearly wept at the loss of some characters. I didn't want any of them to die. GRRMs ASOIAF books have death too, however it happens more often throughout the series. Not cheapening it, it's still unexpected, but it happens more often. In Wheel characters seldom die. The last book was heart breaking. Gawyn, one of my very favorites was brutally slain, Egwene was not a favorite of mine but it was still sad to see her go. Garth Byrne died.... And Galad, I'm not sure if he's alive or not. If he lived he'll never be the same. His sword arm is gone. I was a bit infuriated with that.

 

My overall favorite characters of the series...

 

Galad, all time favorite. Easily one of my all time favorites in fantasy fiction too. Why take his sword arm?

Logain, his glory moment made me a little misty eyed.

Gawyn, why did they kill him off?

Thom, nice that he lived

 

And some more I will list and talk about later after I finish work.

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Apparently the knowledge doesn't exist yet for replacing missing body parts.  But I am sure it doesn't take away from his looks.

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Sorry about that. Can an age of legends aesedai heal his arm?

No problem, and welcome to the Boards :smile:

 

It's been healed to the state he won't die from it, but there's nothing that can be done to replace it.

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I just finished this series after a year and a half. It is a very well done series, but it has its problems, mainly that stretch between books 8 and 10.

 

Some personal notes.

 

  • Gawyn is a f*cking idiot
  • Village girl Egwene/Aes Sedai in Training Egwene/Fighting the White Tower from within Egwene is awesome. Am-Seat Egwene is not.
  • Crossroads of Twilight was a bloody waste of time
  • Brandon Sanderson work in the last three volumes did wonders to help this series and it REALLY helps speed things along.
  • The series spent way too much time on characters I did not give a rats ass about.
  • That last line in Memory of Light was the perfect way to end it.
  • The fact that the entire central cast survives except Egwene is hilarous.
  • Androl and Pevera are good character, but the time spent on them in AMOL feel a tad mary sueish.
  • The Two Rivers archers are amazing
  • Perrin takes way too long to get over himself as a leader. Rand takes way too long trying to get his head in the game.
  • Gaul, Hurin, Talmanes, Aludra, Selucia, Tam, rock.
  • The Forsaken are over-hyped to all hell.
  • Gawyn is probably the stupiest character in the entire series and bloody deserved what he got.

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I thought it was excellent. I feel that Brandon Sanderson did battle scenes better than RJ did, and that's saying something. I feel that he did the ending (for all characters, not just the last bit with Rand) really well except for maybe a couple more lines for each character and I wanted more about Min. I'm not entirely clear on what she does next. My one complaint from the last book is that I find it hard to believe that Min would stay with the Seanchan. She despises their way of life, dislikes their leader and doesn't even like Mat much.

But apart from that minor issue, I thought the book was great, the best bit would definitely be Lan v Demandred. Best line in the whole series for me.

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I thought it was excellent. I feel that Brandon Sanderson did battle scenes better than RJ did, and that's saying something.

 

One on one type duels? I can see the argument.

 

The battles on the other were riddled with errors, inane strategies and nerfed channeling numbers. There were quite literally thousands of channelers dropped from the story and it fundamentally changed the nature of the LB. RJ was a military veteran and historian, it clearly showed in his writing.

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I started this series when I was 13, and now I'm 32 and it's finally over. I didn't read this entire thread up to this point, because I wanted to get stuff out without being overly influenced by other people's opinions. I did notice a lot of people talking about how they disliked Sanderson's writing, but really the only thing about his writing that bothered me was how he changed Mat. It seems like Mat went from being cool and one of my favorite characters to that annoying dude who just tries way too hard to make witty one-liners. And what was the deal with him suddenly wanting to make up back stories for everyone? Thought that was irritating as well.
 

Overall, I was satisfied with it. I ended up crying over all sorts of stupid things, like the tinkers going over the bodies on the battlefield. Not to mention the bigger things, like Egwene's death...and Siuan's, and Bela's, and even Gawyn, even though all I could think was that the idiot deserved to die, and I don't think he ever deserved Egwene. Also a lot of laughing and actually squeaking, "Oh my god!" aloud when exciting things happened, like when Demandred and the Sharans showed up, and when they first accused Bashere of being a darkfriend, and then again when it was revealed what was actually happening with all the generals. After I finished, I basically just moped around my apartment thinking about the ending and not actually believing that I'd never read a new WoT book. And I had absolutely nobody to geek out about it with, since the few friends I have here have never heard of the series...which is what led me here. I needed to see what other people thought, and just be with people who understood the weird feeling of loss after finishing this series that I've been with for over half my life. I think the only other series that's come close in emotional investment for me was The Dark Tower.

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