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DRAGONMOUNT

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Forgemage

Could Rand really ever channel... so to speak.

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Hello long time lurker and loving it. 

 

My thought is this. The Dragon is The Chosen One, he is the answer to the incursion from the DO, he is whatever the Pattern needs him to be. In the AoL LTT sealed the Bore, albeit imperfectly, but he did not have the almost God-like powers that Rand displayed at the end of the series. Because he didn't need it! he had the advanced powers of the AoL to help him. And the reason for the War of Power in the first place was arrogance and a thirst for power. Had the Pattern produced a full blown Dragon with Rand powers, the Breaking would not have happened and the arrogance and greed would have continued. in this Age the people are influenced much harder by the DO and they don't have the advantages of AoL technology, so a more powerful Dragon is needed. Now to the point.

 

People that can channel can tap into the OP along very controlled and strict lines. Lines that cannot be broken. Initially Rand seems to be like them, however once he has embraced his destiny and shed his arrogance and rage his power multiplies exponentially and in the final scenes he manipulates the very fabric of creation. in the epilogue he reaches for the OP and can't access it. He is the Dragon, his job is done, the ability to channel no longer necessary, therefore it's gone. In a normal channeler this would never happen. it's there until severed or burned out. I don't think either of those things happened to Rand. I think he's the Dragon, a mechanism of the Pattern using a very special soul. his abilities will be as small or huge as is needed.

 

So in a sense I don't think Rand was ever a channeler.... in the traditional sense.   

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My thought is this. The Dragon is The Chosen One, he is the answer to the incursion from the DO, he is whatever the Pattern needs him to be. In the AoL LTT sealed the Bore, albeit imperfectly, but he did not have the almost God-like powers that Rand displayed at the end of the series.

 

Many of those so called "god" like powers(identifying DF's, power display at Maradon, etc) pre-Last Battle turned out to be tricks.

 

Brandon

The thing is, he wanted  no one knew he had. Because he’s Sneaky Rand and in Towers of Midnight, he’s doing sneaky stuff with all of his memories and things like this. It’s not all sneakiness, but one of the big things that made Team Jordan uncomfortable was Jesus Rand.  I told them “It’s gonna work, because when you get to…” Harriet was like, “We can’t make him a deity. He can’t be a deity: he’s a person.” I’m like, “Don’t worry. When you read the last book, it will all come together, that he’s human.”...

BWS: ... I wanted you to read book eleven and say, “Oh, no, I’ve lost Rand. He’s become Gandalf or something now. He’s Jesus Rand. And then I wanted to have you read the last book and be like “Oh, no, he is my Rand. He’s different, he’s grown, but he’s still Rand.”

 

Now something certainly happened due to the nature of his fight with the DO, but there is nothing to say LTT couldn't have done the same. They are the same Dragon soul after all.

Edited by Suttree

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My thought is this. The Dragon is The Chosen One, he is the answer to the incursion from the DO, he is whatever the Pattern needs him to be. In the AoL LTT sealed the Bore, albeit imperfectly, but he did not have the almost God-like powers that Rand displayed at the end of the series.

 

Many of those so called "god" like powers(identifying DF's etc) turned out to be tricks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many?

LTT in tEotW prologue being able to sense if any living beings were around him for leagues?

What happened to Torkumen and his wife at Maradon?

The growing of the massive Grove at Merilor or the peaches during his meeting with Tuon?

That because Moridin believes that Rand is able to ferret out Darkfriends by holding saidin and listening to heartbeats, that we should also believe that? That what a character believes is the truth of it? If that's the case, why were Weiramon and Anaiyella flinching away from him as if they were looking into the sun? What "trick" was that exactly?

 

Your definition of "tricks" needs some elaboration I think.

 

Would I classify what was going on as having "Godlike powers"? No, I wouldn't go that far. It's not like he could simply wish for an apple to appear in his hand out of thin air and it would (previous to the aMoL epilogue at least heh). I believe however that had he concentrated hard enough on it, that some serving person would have walked over and put one in his hands.

No, not Godlike but there was certainly a hell of a lot more going on than just "tricks".

Edited by Finnssss

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Sigh.The author quote is clear. Rand is human, he isn't Jesus Rand or transformed like Gandalf like some fanbois want to believe. He was being sneaky post VoG with all the new knowledge.

 

Let's look at some of the things you list.

  • Using the song of growing and his connection with the land has to do with the grove and fruit.
  • As for LTT sensing people Brandon has already narrowed that to either being one with the land or ta'veren.
  • Identifying DF's couldn't be spelled out any more clear when you read the book and combine it with the author quote. As for Weiramon Rand had a dark aura during his bad time and a light one post VoG, perhaps that had something to do with it.
  • Torkumen and his wife is unexplained but Brandon leaves himself some wiggle room by saying "It’s not all sneakiness, but one of things that made Team Jordan uncomfortable was Jesus Rand."

As I've said something certainly happened during the showdown with the DO. Regardless there is no reason to think that LTT as the Dragon Soul couldn't do any of those things as the op suggests. Don't focus on splitting hairs counting what is or isn't one of the tricks the author refers to and look at my overall point.

 

Your definition of "tricks" needs some elaboration I think.

It was Brandon's definition...

But that was the goal with Jesus Rand: you were supposed to be uncomfortable by that, and then you were supposed to learn that half of it was just tricks he was pulling, from knowing stuff in the Age of Legends.

:wink:

Edited by Suttree

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If my memory serves, Rand burned himself out sealing the Bore.  I believe his thoughts in that scene said as much.

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Sigh.The author quote is clear. Rand is human, he isn't Jesus Rand or transformed like Gandalf like some fanbois want to believe. He was being sneaky post VoG with all the new knowledge.

 

Let's look at some of the things you list.

  • Using the song of growing and his connection with the land has to do with the grove and fruit.
  • As for LTT sensing people Brandon has already narrowed that to either being one with the land or ta'veren.
  • Identifying DF's couldn't be spelled out any more clear when you read the book and combine it with the author quote. As for Weiramon Rand had a dark aura during his bad time and a light one post VoG, perhaps that had something to do with it.
  • Torkumen and his wife is unexplained but Brandon leaves himself some wiggle room by saying "It’s not all sneakiness, but one of things that made Team Jordan uncomfortable was Jesus Rand."

As I've said something certainly happened during the showdown with the DO. Regardless there is no reason to think that LTT as the Dragon Soul couldn't do any of those things as the op suggests. Don't focus on splitting hairs counting what is or isn't one of the tricks the author refers to and look at my overall point.

 

Your definition of "tricks" needs some elaboration I think.

It was Brandon's definition...

But that was the goal with Jesus Rand: you were supposed to be uncomfortable by that, and then you were supposed to learn that half of it was just tricks he was pulling, from knowing stuff in the Age of Legends.

:wink:

 

 

 

Here's the thing though Sut, and why I have so many issue's with your opinions...

here in this case you're quoting BS as gospel to support your opinion, yet in other posts, when a BS quote goes against your opinion, you tear him apart and dismiss the quote.

 

So once again, here I am shaking my head and laughing at my screen.

 

 

The bottomline is that what happened at maradon with Tork and his wife was more than just a trick.

That just because he was singing/humming "The Song" to make things grow, doesn't mean that just anyone could sing/hum it and accomplish the same. For sure it was a combo of knowing "The song" and his "One with the Land" thing that made that possible.

And as far as LTT sensing living beings within League's, it doesn't matter if your explanation is correct in that it's part of his Tav + One with the Land thing, it's still more than a mere trick and that's the WHOLE point here.

 

 

Now by all means start your goal post moving ;)

Edited by Finnssss

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No idea what your talking about with the author quotes. A few times I have pointed out where Brandon has been wrong with details in his answers(and those mistakes are called out at Theoryland in the database) but I frequently cite both Brandon and RJ in my arguments. Perhaps you could quote an example of me doing what you claim? It really seems as if you are conflating two seperate issues. In this particular case, the quotes combined with the text makes things cut and dry. It's the author describing what he was going for with these particular passages. Trying to bring BS in to the equation is a lazy argument and shows you really have no counter. Regardless as Harriet's opinion is also is in the quote the above angle doesn't even make sense.

 

As I mentioned stop trying to count the "tricks" that isn't the point at all. The quotes makes clear what he was doing. Nothing you have mentioned is outside the realm of what any Dragon Soul incarnaton could accomplish and that was the actual point. The op implied Rand evolved with god-like powers post VoG and Team Jordan  says that isn't the case. Now if you agree with the op that there is a fundamental difference between different incarnations of the same soul and want to debate that I will, otherwise stop trying to split hairs.

Edit: Oh and as for LTT sensing people, Brandon didn't say it was a combination of the two things, he narrowed it down to one or the other.

Edited by Suttree

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Despite the source of his 'tricks' the fact is that he is able to pull out a lot more than any normal channeler should be able to do. And I agree that Jesus Rand is not what it's about, quite the opposite, he in fact has less freedom and less control than anyone in Randland. He is a tool of the Pattern, a corrective mechanism built into Creation, now his powers does not make him a God, God-like is just a term to reference his comparative level of strength. The crucial part I think is the awesome display at Maradon. A feat that is so much more than channeling, he's like a Sa'ngreal without a buffer, likewise at the final scene in the PoD, he wield so much power that the issue of channeling strength completely loses its meaning. Yes he is the Dragon Reborn, a man, but as the Pattern seeks to correct its own annhiliation it forces the issue and Rand is able to transcend the boundaries of channeling. Why would he be burnt out. He's acting in concert with his nature.

 

And in the epilogue he can no longer channel, but he can manipulate reality, another task clearly awaits him, one that no longer necessitates him being part of the regular power hierarchy of channelers or men in genberal. He is the tool of the Pattern, time and time again. The Creator's chosen one. he will have as much power as he needs, however there is I think a caveat, because he is human he can only wield as much power as his mind is willing to accept. humility and complete acceptance to be a pawn of creation allowed him to super-boost in this cycle. LTT was too entrenched in his reliance on his civilizations sense of superiority and reliance on technology.

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The crucial part I think is the awesome display at Maradon. A feat that is so much more than channeling, he's like a Sa'ngreal without a buffer,

But we kow it wasn't, this was a case of Brandon getting carried away with description. He almost immediately started backpedaling in interviews and stated that Rand had powered up as of KoD.

 

 

Interview: Dec 17th, 2011

Alloy of Law Signing Report - Loialson (Verbatim)

LOIALSON

Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight].

 

Further he then retconned it even more in AMoL showing Rand had actually  used an angreal during the Maradon battle.

 

AMoL

 

There were tens of thousands of the beasts here. Perhaps more. Rand raised his arms, forming a fist, drawing in a deep breath. In the pouch at his belt, he carried a familiar object. The small fat man with the sword, the angreal he had recently found at Dumai's Wells. He had returned there for one last look and found it buried in the mud. It had been useful at Maradon. Nobody knew he had it. That was important.

likewise at the final scene in the PoD, he wield so much power that the issue of channeling strength completely loses its meaning.

End of TPoD? Not sure what you are referring to here. If it's the Damona Mountain Campaign against the Seanchan he was using Callandor.

 

And in the epilogue he can no longer channel, but he can manipulate reality, another task clearly awaits him, one that no longer necessitates him being part of the regular power hierarchy of channelers or men in genberal.

This is where we partially agree. He seemed to manipulate the pattern during his battle with the DO. That said he used massive amounts of the op and seems to have been burnt out. What's clear though is that his task is done. He has earned his freedom to travel the world in peace.

Edited by Suttree

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Here's the thing though Sut, and why I have so many issue's with your opinions...

here in this case you're quoting BS as gospel to support your opinion, yet in other posts, when a BS quote goes against your opinion, you tear him apart and dismiss the quote.

The quote is specifically Brandon talking about his own intentions and what he wrote. Brandon can be wrong in the details of the world and contradict details set down by RJ, but here is talking about scenes that he wrote himself, and what he was doing in them. There are times when Brandon is a valid source and times when he isn't - that's not a whim or inconsistency, though.

 

That just because he was singing/humming "The Song" to make things grow, doesn't mean that just anyone could sing/hum it and accomplish the same.

True, they would have to have the Voice. A Talent which was at least fairly common in the AoL.

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True, they would have to have the Voice. A Talent which was at least fairly common in the AoL.That just because he was singing/humming "The Song" to make things grow, doesn't mean that just anyone could sing/hum it and accomplish the same.

 

Partially I agree, knowing "The Song" helped him do it but I think it was his "One with the Land" thing that was the true cause. "The Song" simply allowed him to focus it.

On purely a nitpicking level, I suppose one could say this was a "Trick" but it was a "Trick" only Rand, The Champion of Light, could have performed IMO.

 

As far as the showing of power at Maradon, it was pretty widely theorized that Rand had an angreal so, again, if one wanted to call this another "Trick" then so be it but he was at his max power level by this time and now had close to 400 years of channeling experience at his disposal. Either way, "Trick" does not seem to be the right description here IMO.

 

As for other things like his DF detecting, I don't buy into Moridin's explanation. There seems to be more to it than that. The brightness created by Rand that caused DF's to kill themselves, poke their own eyes out or look away for the blinding light is more than just some "Trick" period!

 

Regardless, the statement that "Many things he did were tricks" should be viewed at best as misleading, to at worst, completely false. 

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I took the DF finding to be a Talent. Even early on Rand could see connections to the DO, such as those black cords on the Forsaken. He always displayed a talent at sensing the DO's connection to a soul, which is probably just a Talent held by the Dragon. Every other channeler has at least 1 Talent afaik, he did not have any that we were told directly and I assumed that his was the sensing ability.

 

Mardon was explained many times. We witnessed the most powerful male channeller ever + a powerful Angreal + 400 years of the knowledge on the use of the OP. That is essentially the most anybody could ever hope to achieve. The best of the best.

 

The food growing was somewhat explained by 3 things, 1) Song, 2) One with the Land, 3) Taveren nature grew stronger as the pattern grew more unstable. I personally do not like this one point the most as I find it hardest to believe.

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Partially I agree, knowing "The Song" helped him do it but I think it was his "One with the Land" thing that was the true cause. "The Song" simply allowed him to focus it.

On purely a nitpicking level, I suppose one could say this was a "Trick" but it was a "Trick" only Rand, The Champion of Light, could have performed IMO.

So how is that different than LTT?

 

As far as the showing of power at Maradon, it was pretty widely theorized that Rand had an angreal so, again, if one wanted to call this another "Trick" then so be it but he was at his max power level by this time and now had close to 400 years of channeling experience at his disposal.

Widely theorized where? Going to have to ask you to back this claim up with quotes as it certainly didn't happen here at DM. All anyone talked about was how Rand had massively powered up due to the battle description or had some new "light" power. Essentially the discussion fell into the "Jesus Rand" v. regular Rand crowd.

 

Regardless, the statement that "Many things he did were tricks" should be viewed at best as misleading, to at worst, completely false.

 

Lol. How many times have I asked you to stop splitting hairs. Fine you don't like "many"? :rolleyes: Let's go with what the author said then...which was "half of it was just tricks".

 

BS

Because he’s Sneaky Rand and in Towers of Midnight, he’s doing sneaky stuff with all of his memories and things like this...

But that was the goal with Jesus Rand: you were supposed to be uncomfortable by that, and then you were supposed to learn that half of it was just tricks he was pulling, from knowing stuff in the Age of Legends.

Edited by Suttree

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I took the DF finding to be a Talent. Even early on Rand could see connections to the DO, such as those black cords on the Forsaken. He always displayed a talent at sensing the DO's connection to a soul, which is probably just a Talent held by the Dragon. Every other channeler has at least 1 Talent afaik, he did not have any that we were told directly and I assumed that his was the sensing ability.

 

Mardon was explained many times. We witnessed the most powerful male channeller ever + a powerful Angreal + 400 years of the knowledge on the use of the OP. That is essentially the most anybody could ever hope to achieve. The best of the best.

 

The food growing was somewhat explained by 3 things, 1) Song, 2) One with the Land, 3) Taveren nature grew stronger as the pattern grew more unstable. I personally do not like this one point the most as I find it hardest to believe.

 

His ability to stop a closing gateway is a Talent.  I think one of the Forsaken is the only other person we hear about managing it.

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I took the DF finding to be a Talent. Even early on Rand could see connections to the DO, such as those black cords on the Forsaken. He always displayed a talent at sensing the DO's connection to a soul, which is probably just a Talent held by the Dragon. Every other channeler has at least 1 Talent afaik, he did not have any that we were told directly and I assumed that his was the sensing ability.

 

Mardon was explained many times. We witnessed the most powerful male channeller ever + a powerful Angreal + 400 years of the knowledge on the use of the OP. That is essentially the most anybody could ever hope to achieve. The best of the best.

 

The food growing was somewhat explained by 3 things, 1) Song, 2) One with the Land, 3) Taveren nature grew stronger as the pattern grew more unstable. I personally do not like this one point the most as I find it hardest to believe.

 

His ability to stop a closing gateway is a Talent.  I think one of the Forsaken is the only other person we hear about managing it.

 

Asmodean says that only Demandred and Lews Therin could block a gateway. Rand = LTT

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Yes, Rand does have God like powers in the last 2 books, after his moment at Dragonmount.

 

Brandon tries through Ishamael, but fails miserably to stating it is all tricks (which makes absolutely no sense given the decriptions of what Rand has done).

 

I think Brandon when a bit overboard with Rand's capabilities and was trying to make pull back. However, the last scene in the books was all RJ...lightining the pipe. 

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If my memory serves, Rand burned himself out sealing the Bore.  I believe his thoughts in that scene said as much.

 

If he did, his reaction was a lot different than wht we were exposed to for 13 books when a chaneller loses his/her ability.

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But at this stage Rand is in a unique position, in that he's stepped outside the pattern.  His perspective and understanding are presumably on a different level. 

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He is certainly a channeller, and became something more. He channels the same as anyone else does, that makes him a channeler.

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Rand's understanding of the Matrix increased to a level beyond LTT after Dragonmount. God like capabilities started to occur to a greater extent than LTT had.

 

LTT 2.0

 

After this confrontation with Shai'tan, his understanding expanded even more.

 

LTT 3.0

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