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MasterAblar

Weekly Topic: Rand and Logain, the Dragon and the Sealbraker.

Rand and Logain  

31 members have voted

  1. 1. Was Logain jealous of Rand, and was Rand right to mistrust Logain?

    • Logain was jealous
    • Logain was not jealous
    • Rand was right
    • Rand was wrong
  2. 2. Who is responsible for the conflict between them, and will they meet again

  3. 3. Logain would have made a better Dragon right?

    • Of course, Logain is a God!
      0
    • *kneecap*
    • .....I don't like confrontations.


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This weeks topic will be about the relationship between two very interesting characters: namely Rand al'Thor and Logain Ablar.

 

These two characters met relatively few times in the course of the books. The saw each other from afar when Logain was brought to Caemlyn, and later met once more in CoT, when Rand learned that Logain was an Asha'man. We see them together once more in KoD, and presumably they never met again.

 

Until they meet in CoT we have no knowledge whatsoever of what they think of each other. When they do meet, they immediately appear to be antagonistic. Circumstances are admittedly unfavorable. Rand is falling into madness and despair, and Logain has just shown up with a bunch bonded Aes Sedai, further straining relations between the Black and White Towers, and more precisely between Rand and the Aes Sedai, whether they be on Elaida's side or Egwene's.

 

It is all too clear that Rand does not trust Logain one bit, and Logain's temper, as well as Rand's does nothing to help the situation. It's rather predictable that two such strong personalities would clash. Rand's refusal to investigate matters at the BT understandably angers Logain who comes accross as a leader of the Asha'man but as the leader the Asha'man need. Not someone who sees them as mere tools and weapons, but who will look out for their well being. Rand none to discreet refusal to trust Logain on the matter obviously only makes things worse. And Cadsuane telling both they're acting like children, true as it might be, doesn't help.

 

Logain is in a way, a failed dragon, or rather a rejected dragon. As he says in aMoL to Mat, he offered his life to that pattern to be the dragon and was gentled for his trouble. While he denies that he feels jealousy towards Rand, it is entirely possible that he still feels anger at his fate, and on some level blames Rand for this.

 

Rand meanwhile probably sees a man who is little different than Taim, or at the very least he has little reasons to believe him to be different. Both declared themselves Dragon for seemingly selfish reasons, and he has no reasons to trust Logain more than the other. And yet the Asha'man do trust Logain.

 

So did Rand misjudge Logain, or did simply not have the opportunity to see him as the man he really is? Who was to blame for their inability to work together on the BT's subject? Will the two meet again and work out their differences?

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I didn't read their scenes together in KoD as Rand particularly mistrusting Logain, more than Rand was just angry and frustrated with anything that could distract him from bringing the nations together before the Last Battle.  To be fair, Rand is distrustful of everyone (barring Min, Nynaeve, and perhaps Lan) by this point, but I don't think he is any more distrustful of Logain that he is of anyone else - his automatic response to almost everyone is suspicion.  I think Rand's reaction to Logain's news about the Black Tower is based on the fact that he probably realises he hasn't taken on sufficient responsibility for it, but the time when it could have been nipped in the bud has passed, and now he doesn't have time to deal with it, so its a kind of 'head in the sand' reaction.

 

I do think Logain is jealous of Rand to some extent, or at least very preoccupied by thoughts of what might have been.  However, I don't think these thoughts actually govern his actions - I don't think there are any scenes where he lets his desire for glory override doing the right thing.  HIs moment of glory in AMoL is the crux of this.

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I wouldn't necessarily call it "jealousy"; more like he is bitter that Rand reduced him to nothing but a False Dragon. 

 

Rand is insane and he doesn't trust his left foot at this stage, and he has never trusted male channelers. He is afraid of them. Logain and Taim most of all. 

 

however his suspicion isn't unfounded. To him, Logain was a man grabbing at glory, just like Taim. He can't understand why any decent person would actually want to be the Dragon Reborn. Logain caused a lot of havoc (although it wasn't exactly wrong; he thought he was the Dragon, and Rand caused just as much and more). 

 

At this stage, to Rand, Taim hasn't done anything wrong. He doesn't know what Taim has been up to, and while he doesn't trust him. No more than Logain has. He has no reason to trust Logain over Taim. So he wants evidence. 

 

Of course, he is reluctant because he is afraid of the Black Tower and insane, but his reactions aren't illogical. 

 

Logain wouldn't make a better Dragon, but he makes a better leader for the Asha'man to follow. 

Edited by Barid Bel Medar

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I also agree that Logain would not have made a good Dragon. I really liked his Sealbraker moment, but the  biggest is when he orders the Ashaman to protect the innocent from Moghedien's horrible rampage.

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Good leader of the Asha'man, and not worthy as the Dragon because he wasn't given the background. Rand sought to save the world because he saw it as a duty, and hopefully to save his life in the process. Logain sought to save the world, but only for the power and glory. Ironically, it took Logain turning his back on power to match the Dragon to achieve both.

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Glory over men, stronger than ever, in AMoL is what Min saw around Logain. He is the future of male channelers in the 4th age, at least the start of that age. Like most heroes, he was pulled through a keyhole backwards, and came to face his worst fears. And like the remaining main heroes, he passed the test, with scars. From the start, Logain's worst nightmare is weakness and helplessness. He was subjected to it twice after capture by AS (till Egwene freed him) and Taim (till his conscience saved him). 

 

He would not have made any Dragon. The one prophecy demanded was Rand, and none other. Logain, to a lesser degree than Egwene, was another make-it-or-break-it supporter Rand needed to succeed. E.g. Logain doesn't show up in Cairhien to save Elayne's arse, and the Light is toast. 

 

Was Logain jealous of Rand? .... Who wasn't? It is natural that Logain is jealous of Rand ... But he overcame that jealousy and went to the BT to serve Rand faithfully. Only when Rand abandoned Logain and the Asha'man to Taim's evil did they start questioning Rand's commitment to them; and started to form a new independent allegiance to the BT. 

 

On Rand and suspecting Logain, it wasn't any worse that Rand's other suspicions. After Elaida's "house breaking," the taint's progression, and Semirhage's masterwork, Rand was so scary that Min stopped feeling comfortable around him. He was at his lowest point; and it reflected on his actions. Logain, and the others Rand misused, didn't do anything exceptional to bring Rand's suspicions on themselves. They were simply there! 

 

One thing I'm wondering about is whether the Seanchan will now have male damane. I think that Fortuona is pragmatic enough to see the advantages of that; as it will increase the Empire's strength. And does that fall under the terms of the Dragon's Peace and the Empire's understandings with Egwene? 

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