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False Dragon1991

Okay, how did Rand and the 3 wonder women work?

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As hilarious as the scene is with Nynaeve when this comes out, I always felt like "really?" they have no problem with the idea of sharing and don't think badly of Rand because he likes them all? Didn't Elayne have her heart set on Rand, sort of made this plain to him and that Aviendha was setting herself to watch over him? Then Aviendha scalps Rands virginity instead! :D No hard feelings? Its just very strange. If they were obsessed about Rand you would expect them to get possesive and try to push the others away? Or, think he was being unfaithful? The "arrangement", well, that taverrn magic is definitely powerful. There is a little bit of tension in the beginning with Min n Elayne and even in Towers of Midnight between Min n Aviendha; but not that much really.

 

Still, I have to take my hat off to him that he didn't suggest they have a foursome. Gentleman right there. ;)

 

 

Do you think Song of Ice and Fire with Aegon and his sister-wives is meant to reference this? I wonder if Dany will end up doing something similar. 

Edited by False Dragon1991

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To be honest, I think this isn't possible in real life. As for the book the 3 girls had a really hard time at the start. Even in TGS it was still a problem. I personally think that it would make more sense if Rand loved only one woman and the story would be much stronger. He could have stayed in love with Egwene. Or despite his strong feelings about the three, to had chosen only one of them. But the author had to have a reason to do it the way he did so i can accept it. :)

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I just take Robert Jordan's romance with a grain of salt. I haven't seen a single relationship in this series that I've bought. Especially since ALL of them are born either through initial hostility or spontaneous declarations of love.

 

Have any love interests just been friends who eventually over time grew to be something more?

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The romance in WoT hasn't been a strong point of the series, however, there are cultures outside of the Western cultures that have had similar practises, some still do. 

 

Just because it is strange to a Western perspective, doesn't make it invalid. 

 

As pointed out, the relationships in WoT aren't the greatest, but the idea itself is a valid one to be explored - like in the Aiel etc.. 

 

Still, all 4 of them spend enough time thinking how strange the situation is and they are all uncomfortable. In the end, it comes down to love of Rand and their friends. I'm not sure about that myself, but who am I to judge that. Basically I think that was the whole premise of the thing, to explore the nature of relationships and love. 

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I found the romance in TWOT bizarre to say the least. What could have really set it alight was a REMA foursome!

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 Is there anyone who actually the way the "romance" between Rand and his three lovers is written? I don't recall I've ever seen such an opinion in all the years I've been in the WoT fandom. One of Jordan's worst ideas IMO.

Edited by David Selig

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Polygamy and polyarmory aren't all that unrealistic or unique, but yeah - romance hasn't been RJ's strong suit in either of his series, trending more to creepy than anything else. Could buy into it with Aviendha since it's a cultural norm, and I could see it maybe happening with a "best friend", but throwing a third woman into the mix just seemed awkward and forced. Min never came across as the type who would be open to that sort of thing, even grudgingly, after they all got wise to the situation. I get the distinct impression RJ was trying to fit it into his various mythological underpinnings and fumbled the ball.

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For us it's strange. No matter how hard we try, we won't understand it, but it's true that these cases are reality in some parts of the world. But Rand himself is half Aiel, so it's in his veins. Aviendha is Aiel too. It is more natural for them. Tough we can bring up that Rand didn't grew up among the Aiel. I'm not saying he loves three women because of his origin. I mean that it's easier to be accepted knowing it is tradition among his people. It is harder to imagine in this position Min and especially the proud Elayne who on cultural level are entirely opposite. But i think i can explain it that way: Rand is in love with all three, so his heart isn't rejecting this thing like impossible. Only his reason. It is natural for a person to love someone who is like them, so Elayne, Min and Avi accept it because they are like him. All four of them are soul mates.

 

And it is true that in romantic sense the idea of one man and three women is absurd but it's valuable by its intriguing nature. I mean it makes us think, discuss and relate it with precedents in real life, so we try to understand better the ones different from us. 

Edited by Rachel_VIP

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My problem is that it all happened so cleanly.

 

They all accepted that it was something that had to happen. There's nothing really discussed and overcome in any capacity that's really worthwhile. All 3 of them get on with each other, so it's not like there's even a single problem in that regard.

 

and, given the state of randland and what's going on, I understand why they didn't go into such issues, but then that just highlights why RJ even bothered bringing it up if he wasn't going to do anything with it. It's like being weird for the sake of being weird.

Edited by EmperorAllspice

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and, given the state of randland and what's going on, I understand why they didn't go into such issues, but then that just highlights why RJ even bothered bringing it up if he wasn't going to do anything with it. It's like being weird for the sake of being weird.

 

 This is the other major problem with the whole foursome deal. Not only it's implausible, it's pointless. It doesn't really affects the plot or changes the characters much in terms of personality.

 

And of all people in Randland, Elayne should be the last one to accept such an arrangement. She's the most eligible single woman on the continent, has to think about the prestige and dignity of her position, the customs of Andor are prudish compared to most everywhere else...just doesn't make sense.

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My problem is that it all happened so cleanly.

 

They all accepted that it was something that had to happen. There's nothing really discussed and overcome in any capacity that's really worthwhile. All 3 of them get on with each other, so it's not like there's even a single problem in that regard.

 

and, given the state of randland and what's going on, I understand why they didn't go into such issues, but then that just highlights why RJ even bothered bringing it up if he wasn't going to do anything with it. It's like being weird for the sake of being weird.

i don't agree. It didn't happen just like that. For a very long time Rand struggled with his feelings and tried to justify them. Elayne, Min and Aviendha had arguments. They did discuss it. Each one fought her own insecurities concerning Rand' love not being only hers. And this went for a long time.

 

 

and, given the state of randland and what's going on, I understand why they didn't go into such issues, but then that just highlights why RJ even bothered bringing it up if he wasn't going to do anything with it. It's like being weird for the sake of being weird.

 

 This is the other major problem with the whole foursome deal. Not only it's implausible, it's pointless. It doesn't really affects the plot or changes the characters much in terms of personality.

 

And of all people in Randland, Elayne should be the last one to accept such an arrangement. She's the most eligible single woman on the continent, has to think about the prestige and dignity of her position, the customs of Andor are prudish compared to most everywhere else...just doesn't make sense.

 

This is a major concern and event for the four so it isn't possible not to change them. Remember that in TOM Rand said something like ( I can't quote it exactly) : I am who I am because of..." and he said names of people who changed his life. Among the names were those of the three girls. For the wining of  the last battle the mental state of Rand was pretty essential so you can't say that it didn't affect the plot. 

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My problem is that it all happened so cleanly.

 

They all accepted that it was something that had to happen. There's nothing really discussed and overcome in any capacity that's really worthwhile. All 3 of them get on with each other, so it's not like there's even a single problem in that regard.

 

and, given the state of randland and what's going on, I understand why they didn't go into such issues, but then that just highlights why RJ even bothered bringing it up if he wasn't going to do anything with it. It's like being weird for the sake of being weird.

i don't agree. It didn't happen just like that. For a very long time Rand struggled with his feelings and tried to justify them. Elayne, Min and Aviendha had arguments. They did discuss it. Each one fought her own insecurities concerning Rand' love not being only hers. And this went for a long time.

 

 

and, given the state of randland and what's going on, I understand why they didn't go into such issues, but then that just highlights why RJ even bothered bringing it up if he wasn't going to do anything with it. It's like being weird for the sake of being weird.

 

 This is the other major problem with the whole foursome deal. Not only it's implausible, it's pointless. It doesn't really affects the plot or changes the characters much in terms of personality.

 

And of all people in Randland, Elayne should be the last one to accept such an arrangement. She's the most eligible single woman on the continent, has to think about the prestige and dignity of her position, the customs of Andor are prudish compared to most everywhere else...just doesn't make sense.

 

This is a major concern and event for the four so it isn't possible not to change them. Remember that in TOM Rand said something like ( I can't quote it exactly) : I am who I am because of..." and he said names of people who changed his life. Among the names were those of the three girls. For the wining of  the last battle the mental state of Rand was pretty essential so you can't say that it didn't affect the plot. 

 

Yes, but surely he mentions OTHER events and people in that quote. (haven't read TOM) It affected the plot, but it wasn't something that NEEDED to happen in order to do so. You could've had a standard romance with one of them and a deep caring for the other two and still have it mean as much to him in that quote.

 

Take as a contrast something else like Perrin's wolf powers. You couldn't just change that with something else and have it offer the same impact. Masses of other things would need to be changed. You'd lose major scenes of development and doubt.

 

Also, going on about the same things endlessly is not discussing something. and eventually they just get over it and start liking each other. Nothing is developed or advanced

Edited by EmperorAllspice

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My problem is that it all happened so cleanly.

 

They all accepted that it was something that had to happen. There's nothing really discussed and overcome in any capacity that's really worthwhile. All 3 of them get on with each other, so it's not like there's even a single problem in that regard.

 

and, given the state of randland and what's going on, I understand why they didn't go into such issues, but then that just highlights why RJ even bothered bringing it up if he wasn't going to do anything with it. It's like being weird for the sake of being weird.

i don't agree. It didn't happen just like that. For a very long time Rand struggled with his feelings and tried to justify them. Elayne, Min and Aviendha had arguments. They did discuss it. Each one fought her own insecurities concerning Rand' love not being only hers. And this went for a long time.

 

 

and, given the state of randland and what's going on, I understand why they didn't go into such issues, but then that just highlights why RJ even bothered bringing it up if he wasn't going to do anything with it. It's like being weird for the sake of being weird.

 

 This is the other major problem with the whole foursome deal. Not only it's implausible, it's pointless. It doesn't really affects the plot or changes the characters much in terms of personality.

 

And of all people in Randland, Elayne should be the last one to accept such an arrangement. She's the most eligible single woman on the continent, has to think about the prestige and dignity of her position, the customs of Andor are prudish compared to most everywhere else...just doesn't make sense.

 

This is a major concern and event for the four so it isn't possible not to change them. Remember that in TOM Rand said something like ( I can't quote it exactly) : I am who I am because of..." and he said names of people who changed his life. Among the names were those of the three girls. For the wining of  the last battle the mental state of Rand was pretty essential so you can't say that it didn't affect the plot. 

 

Yes, but surely he mentions OTHER events and people in that quote. (haven't read TOM) It affected the plot, but it wasn't something that NEEDED to happen in order to do so. You could've had a standard romance with one of them and a deep caring for the other two and still have it mean as much to him in that quote.

 

Take as a contrast something else like Perrin's wolf powers. You couldn't just change that with something else and have it offer the same impact. Masses of other things would need to be changed. You'd lose major scenes of development and doubt.

 

Also, going on about the same things endlessly is not discussing something. and eventually they just get over it and start liking each other. Nothing is developed or advanced

 

It's true. We all agree that it's weird and it would have been better if he loved only one. Only Robert Jordan knew why he did it that way.

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It's true. We all agree that it's weird and it would have been better if he loved only one. Only Robert Jordan knew why he did it that way.

 

Not at all, I would've happily read about a 4 way romantic relationship. As long as the ramifications and issues relating such a union were actually explored and expanded upon.

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My problem is that it all happened so cleanly.

 

They all accepted that it was something that had to happen. There's nothing really discussed and overcome in any capacity that's really worthwhile. All 3 of them get on with each other, so it's not like there's even a single problem in that regard.

 

and, given the state of randland and what's going on, I understand why they didn't go into such issues, but then that just highlights why RJ even bothered bringing it up if he wasn't going to do anything with it. It's like being weird for the sake of being weird.

 

This was an opportunity to really see some flaws in the characters and take them out of their one dimensional moulds. Nothing like a bit of jealousy on the part of the woman to set the stage alight. Some poison perhaps? An assassin? One of the girls leaning towards the dark side in order to get Rand all to herself? Nope, none of that. We'll just accept three girls will share Rand. End of story.

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RJ had a plural relationship at one point in his life, and he figured if he could handle two, surely the savior of the world could handle three.

 

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RJ had a plural relationship at one point in his life, and he figured if he could handle two, surely the savior of the world could handle three.

 

The issue here is not of Rand handling three girls. It's of the three girls handling themselves (or lack of it). Oh boy, what did I just say?!

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RJ had a plural relationship at one point in his life, and he figured if he could handle two, surely the savior of the world could handle three.

 

The issue here is not of Rand handling three girls. It's of the three girls handling themselves (or lack of it). Oh boy, what did I just say?!

 

 

:rolleyes:  :wink:

 

 

 

In all seriousness, perhaps because RJ was drawing on personal experience he was less willing to dwell on the issues as it would reflect negatively on his own experience if he had to think on the women not liking the arrangement as much as he did. 

 

Okay, how many fantasy writers are certified war heroes and do things like this? Seems like an interesting character.

Edited by False Dragon1991

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Apprently he was drawing on his own experience (I'm not sure if it was him or people around him) where the two girls worked it out fine. 

 

The premise of loving more than one person is actually far more plausible than the "traditional" value that a person can only love one other person. 

 

It makes perfect sense for Rand to fall in love with 3 women. 

 

As said, the problem is with the women's handling of it. I don't think it was completely botched. They did struggle with it for a long time and even as of ToM they aren't completely comfortable with the idea. 

 

However, the romance isn't well developed. It's like an outline for a good story but missing the filling and it rings hollow. 

 

It is an interesting concept to explore though. 

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Guest PiotrekS

The romance in WOT is definitely not one of its strengths, but I don't have as much of a problem with Rand and three ladies thing. First of all, I'm a man, right? Hehe..That's quite a typical male fantasy. When I described the arrangement to my then girlfriend, she rolled her eyes and said: "Yeaahh...It is so obvious it was written by a man". :tongue:

 

But on the other hand, even if the arrangement seems strange and improbable from popular perspective, it doesn't mean it couldn't happen once, provided the people involved and circumstances where not that ordinary or typical, which was definitely the case. I think that you can find people willing to engage in any kind of weird behaviour if you look long enough :wink:

 

As to Elayne, she was prudish and all, true, but also had an adventurous streak and liked to do things that went beyond the typical "Daughter-Heir" routine. i agree that her relationship with Rand came out of nowhere and was underdeveloped, but I could easily imagine Elayne doing something crazy now and then :wink:

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Yeah, Elayne and Rand made the least sense to me. She obsesses about him straight away on sight. Believes she laid her heart out to Rand at the Stone. Yet Rand goes and sleeps with two other women afterwards and shes okay with this?

 

With Aviendha there is the whole kindred Aeil thing and them having their "you know nothin Rand al Thor" time to bond over.

 

With Min I felt that she wants to fix Rand and be there to support him all the way. Which is very similar to how I saw Nynaeve and Lan BTW. Nynaeve likes to heal people and do good. She sees that Lan is a tortured person and wants to help him in that way.

Edited by False Dragon1991

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I don't particularly have a problem with the idea of one man being in love with three woman or vice-versa.  Its not the norm in my culture, but it is the norm in some cultures, and has been accepted in many cultures throughout history (e.g. the ancient Greeks, Thracians, Persians, etc.).  

 

I think, as has been said by others, that the problem is that it is a very complex issue, especially when you present it as going against the culturally acceptable bounds for relationships for 2.5 of the 4 characters involved.  Its not unbelievable that something like this might happen, but I think it needed more attention that it got, and more development, otherwise there doesn't seem any great point in introducing it.  I think especially conflict with Min should have been greater.  I can understand that Aviendha would be happy to share as this is completely normal and acceptable to her, and I can pretty much convince myself that Elayne would be willing to share with Aviendha as they are very close friends, and Elayne obviously has some respect and acceptance of the Aiel culture, as evidenced by her participation in the ceremony to become Aviendha's First Sister.  But Min doesn't have any real reason to go along with sharing Rand.  She has Rand almost exclusively to herself for the second half of the series, and is generally very possessive/clingy with him.  

 

I wonder how much Min's vision came into the acceptance of the three woman of the situation?  Perhaps the fact that they knew MIn's viewing meant that the three of them would inevitably love them made them more accepting of it.

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That and the fact that it's kinda creepy how Min kinda got destiny stockholmed into loving Rand.

 

It's kinda like "The cards say I'll love him. I have no real choice in the matter. May as well accept it."

 

Am I the only one who finds that a little unsettling?

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That and the fact that it's kinda creepy how Min kinda got destiny stockholmed into loving Rand.

 

It's kinda like "The cards say I'll love him. I have no real choice in the matter. May as well accept it."

 

Am I the only one who finds that a little unsettling?

 

I thought it was weird too.  She barely knew the guy, and is suddenly in bed with him in book 2; keeping him warm (or something).  Min is also extremely possessive of Rand in every scene that has the two together.  From what we see of her POV, she is thinking about Rand 90% of the time.  Suddenly she can just accept sharing him with two other women?!

 

And as others have said, Elayne has to be Queen of Andor, not Queen of the Harem! 

 

I wouldn't say RJ got it all wrong though, the Siune/Bryne relationship seemed well developed and progressed naturally.  The other relationships are just madness.  I honestly thought Lan would react like this: "Get the #@$^ away from me woman!  You crazy!"  But for some reason he loves her in return.

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