With the Choedan Kal

[Master of the Blades]

I have been musing about why Damer Flynn was able to attack Demandred during the Cleansing. He was linked to Corele and Sarene. Corele is Flynn's Aes Sedai and Sarene was a White Tower AS. We know that men cannot initiate a circle. It must have been Corele. She would have had to direct the flows against Demandred yet it appears he did so on his own initiative. We know that Elza guided the attack on Dashiva and we know that Eben died becasue he could not channel saidin without the direction of Kumira or Daigian when they were attacked by Arangar.

 

Why can Damer do what the other two could not? Does anyone have a plausible explanation?

[Thor]

No, men can lead circles.

 

There are some restrictions, but none were infringed.

Leading the circle basically just came down to seniority.

[Guest cwestervelt]

My understanding only. Cannot cite references at this time:

 

One of the Aes Sedai might have needed to creat the initial circle but once the circle is established control can be passed to any other member of the circle man or woman.

 

Off hand, I'm not even certain that a circle between two women and 1 man requires the woman to create it. That might just be a requirement when trying to link 2 men.

[icspots]

It's not that Narishima and Eben couldn't control the flows, it's that their Aes Sedai didn't give them that option.

 

Winter's Heart: Chapter 35, With the Choedan Kal

 

Eben's POV

 

"What did irk him was that he had not been givin control of the circle. Of course, Jahar had not, but he figured Merise amused herself by making Jahar balance a cookie on his nose. Damer had been given control of that circle, though."

 

So we see from that they they can just that the other two weren't allowed. Women can link by themselves up to 13, men are needed to take a link beyond thirteen, more than one to go beyond twenty-seven. (LoC,Prologue) For a single man and a woman, the woman must initiate the link but then give control to the man. (LoC,Ch6)

[Master of the Blades]

Thank you for that.

 

Why would Corele give control of the circle to Damer?

The other Aes Sedai (Elza, Daigian) did not. Is it because he is so insistent? Does Corele trust him that much?

[rd2000]

Many possible reasons.

 

Remember the other AS reactions on controlling their circles when Saidin was involved? They all found Saidin distateful. Maybe the AS with Damer didn't want the disgusting stuff on them :D

Maybe they agreed that Damer would be a better fighter with the OP than them.

Maybe they had pre-agreed that Damer would meld the flows.

Maybe they agreed beforehand that if they fought a male, Damer would control, should a female show up,then one of the AS would control.

Maybe they went by power level, or age, or ugliness.

 

I could go on, but you get my drift.

[Guest cwestervelt]

They were smarter than the other circles. By allowing Damer to control, they gained an advantage because they avoided any issues with the Oaths. He could strike first and ask questions later. The circles controlled by Aes Sedai basically had to wait until they were attacked.

[Master of the Blades]

The three Oaths would not hold them back. Cadsuane built a shield around the group and with her angreal she could detect channelling. She would point to the direction the channelling would come from and one of the groups would launch an attack with the OP.

 

As long as they are linked they could feel Saidin so that reasoning does not hold any merit.

 

It is possible that Damer is better trained as a weapon just as Alivia is. That might be a reasonable explanation.

 

Is there any evidence that it is easy to pass control of a circle from one person to another? The only instance that comes to mind is in (TPOD The breaking Storm when Nynaeve creates the circle and then passes control to Caire when they used the Bowl of the Winds. No men were involved in that circle. Is it possible to pass control form one person to another while channeling?

[Thor]

No. All reasons given are wrong.

 

As I said already, it all comes down to seniority or authority. It's a sign of respect and trust, that is all.

[rd2000]

Damar Flynn might have been the youngest person in that circle.

[Thor]

True, but he was the oldest of the ashaman.

[RobertAlexWillis]

All of the Aes Sedai have unique relationships with their Warders, especially the ones who can channel. Corele and Damer's seems to be much closer to equal partners than the others'.

 

Also, it may have been a tactical decision by Cadsuane. She may have wanted at least one circle led by someone who could see/sense saidin. Eben Hopwil died because his circle couldn't react fast enough to what he sensed. Either Cadsuane or Corele might have figured that having a male-led circle would be more effective against male Forsaken.

[Thor]

Even so, they had no ways to tell which group would encounter which Forsaken, so there can be no blame here.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I wasn't blaming anyone, Thor, I was giving an example of what they might have thought about actually happening.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The three Oaths would not hold them back. Cadsuane built a shield around the group and with her angreal she could detect channelling. She would point to the direction the channelling would come from and one of the groups would launch an attack with the OP.

 

As long as they are linked they could feel Saidin so that reasoning does not hold any merit.

 

It is possible that Damer is better trained as a weapon just as Alivia is. That might be a reasonable explanation.

 

Is there any evidence that it is easy to pass control of a circle from one person to another? The only instance that comes to mind is in (TPOD The breaking Storm when Nynaeve creates the circle and then passes control to Caire when they used the Bowl of the Winds. No men were involved in that circle. Is it possible to pass control form one person to another while channeling?

 

Cadsuane detecting Saidin usage and pointing in the direction of its source only provided a direction for a possible threat. It didn't indicate that the person using it/holding it was either a Darkfriend or a threat to an Aes Sedai's life. It could have been an Asha'man coming to investigate. The same holds true for detected Saidar. It could have been one or more people sent by Egwene to investigate. Again, the pressence of a Channeller isn't sufficient to denote a life threatening situation. Only people free from the three Oaths like Damer, Alivia and Elza were able to perform indiscriminate attacks on a person holding the One Power.

[Arath Faringal]

Would the oath even apply to encounters with the forsaken? I think it would be a rather safe assumption that if there is a forsaken in front of you, your life is in serious danger. And who else would dare attack the largest drawing of the OP that had ever happened in the history of the world? Also, with the legendary nature of the forsaken, everyone views them as worse than shadowspawn, which the Aes Sedai can attack without a problem.

 

Personally I don't see the oath being a big problem there.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Some Aes Sedai alude to Darkfriends being fare game, provided the Aes Sedai is convinced that they are indeed Darkfriends. It still needs to be established as fact in the mind of the Aes Sedai first. As most Forsaken woudldn't be recognize by non Black Sisters, they would still require sufficient evidence before being free to act.

[Covenant]

Well it was established during Dumani's Well that all an Aes Sedei needs is to feel that her life is in danger. Anyone who travels or otherwise approaches is fair game just based on the priciple that they are there to kill. Completely believable

[Guest cwestervelt]

Well it was established during Dumani's Well that all an Aes Sedei needs is to feel that her life is in danger. Anyone who travels or otherwise approaches is fair game just based on the priciple that they are there to kill. Completely believable

 

That isn't believable at all. It is also contrary to the events depicted at both Dumai's Wells and those of the Cleansing.

 

At Dumai's Wells' date=' the Aes Sedai went among the Shaido to make sure that someone actually tried to kill them or their Warders. Making yourself a target and drawing fire is not the same as attacking first.

 

At the Cleansing, the Aes Sedai led circles were not attacking people on sight on principle they were there to kill. They were waiting until they were either attacked, or, as in the case of Halima, they saw encountered something that obviously shouldn't be. If they were just indiscriminantly nuking anything that moved, why do you think they did nothing until [b']after[/b] Eben's warning?

 

The only time we ever get someone/something attacked by an Aes Sedai on "principal" is if the target was or was believed to be Shadowspawn. Trollocs, Myrdraal, Dragkhar, and Gray Men once they were detected. We also get one instance where they did so in error. After they fled Ebou Dar their was the scene with the Seanchan flyer, and everyone present, Windfinder, Kin and Aes Sedai believed it was Shadowspawn.

[RobertAlexWillis]

This is, I think, a case where Aes Sedai differ on where they draw the line. We've seen evidence before that different Aes Sedai rationalize the Oaths differently, and the key to the Oaths is that they are interpreted by each Sister's own subconscious: there are alot of Sisters who can't blur the lines as well as, say, Verin does. So, the answer is, some probably could attack someone like the Forsaken first, and some probably couldn't.

 

In situations like Dumai's Wells, where a group of Sisters was following the lead of another Sister/Sisters (in this case, mostly Kiruna Nachiman with input from Bera Harkin), the Sisters are almost obligated by their ridiculous hierarchy to accede to the interpretation of a Sister who stands higher. Kiruna obviously, in that situation, decided they weren't in danger until they were in the thick of it. Teslyn and Joline obviously feel the same, given how long they waited to strike when they were with the Band (KoD, ch. 37) But it does not necessarily follow that all Oath-bound Aes Sedai will feel the same. There is also the issue of what each Aes Sedai feels constitutes "using the Power as a weapon". There are all sorts of non-lethal ways to strike, that may or may not be "weapons" depending on each Sister's individual interpretation.

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, I reread the With the Choedan Kal chapter, and even Verin went through her mental justifications, though as always with her it is impossible to be sure. Because of Graendal's streith dress, she thought that unless she was very much mistaken, Graendal must be one of the Forsaken, yet still she decided on a non-weapon, a shield, as her first weave. Though Verin being Verin, perhaps she wanted to try to capture her more than kill.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Though Verin being Verin, perhaps she wanted to try to capture her more than kill.

 

That was my impression too. I imagine Verin mentally rubbing her hands together at the thought of acquiring one of the Forsaken as a specimen ... :D

[Graendals favourite]

She would do that. :D

[DemandredFO]

Elza wanted control of her circle cuz she wanted to make 150% sure she killed things long before they considered doing damage to Rand. Elza is free of the weapon oath otherwise Aginor might have suceeded in killing Rand. Demandred was attacked before he could strike, so was Lanfear, so yes as others have said the oaths and their interpretations. As with the Damar, Corele thing didn't rand imply that they might be love there. Diagion and Marise's circles were stupid and Diagion got her warder killed and Kumera(sp) wouldn't have been killed if Alivia had been Linked and leading the circle. They said she picked up things quick. That's my story

[Magicana]

IMO they could have just rationalised it by thinking that anyone that comes is likely to be the Forsaken, or darkfriends. Thats what I would have done.