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Demandred's Arc (Full Spoilers)

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waiting for revenge against lews therin = 3000 years of threats and promises

 

getting killed by ageing warder = priceless.

 

demandred. all he did was kill one baldemaster, wound another and get killed by a tiring although admittedly legendary one.

 

i waited for 14 books for this?

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A General duelling someone in the middle of a war is even more irresponsible than fighting on the front lines in some aspects. Sometimes a General needs to show his troops that he shares their risks, Or because he needs to see how the battle is going(how the troops are holding up/morale) or in Dem's case cause he is a super-weapon himself.

 

Duelling someone however is flat out stupid. If you want to be honourable then dont align with the forces of the dark and certainly dont do it during a battle that will seal the fate of millions. Galad, Gawyn, Lan were all expendable which is why they would risk it. Demandred should have just had them killed or sent out to their troops naked as a sign of how pathetic he found them. That would have done more to demoralise the side of the light. well except Gawyn due to the warder bond.

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He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded!

 

Did not have to fight.... doesn't mean he can't or won't in the future.  I don't think it contradicts anything, this time he had his massive army behind him and Sakarnen, and it was the Last Battle for pete's sake.  At the cleansing he went because the DO would have expected him to, but he didn't want to fight there, he wasn't prepared and didn't have an interest in that battle.

Edited by Crowl Rife

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I am actually tempted to read one of Brandons books to see how he does with contradicting his own material.

 

I'm a big fan of Sanderson's own books, but I've not liked his WoT writing very much, but that's probably better for the quality thread.

Edited by fyodor

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He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded!

 

Did not have to fight.... doesn't mean he can't or won't in the future.  I don't think it contradicts anything, this time he had his massive army behind him and Sakarnen, and it was the Last Battle for pete's sake.  At the cleansing he went because the DO would have expected him to, but he didn't want to fight there, he wasn't prepared and didn't have an interest in that battle.

 

The point is that he is outraged and panicked about having to be in direct combat. Hardly the mindset of the world's greatest swordsman.

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He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded!

 

Did not have to fight.... doesn't mean he can't or won't in the future.  I don't think it contradicts anything, this time he had his massive army behind him and Sakarnen, and it was the Last Battle for pete's sake.  At the cleansing he went because the DO would have expected him to, but he didn't want to fight there, he wasn't prepared and didn't have an interest in that battle.

 

The point is that he is outraged and panicked about having to be in direct combat. Hardly the mindset of the world's greatest swordsman.

 

After reading AMoL, I now find his actions then to be the result of being unexpectedly thrown into battle against his will, completely unprepared.

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He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded!

 

Did not have to fight.... doesn't mean he can't or won't in the future.  I don't think it contradicts anything, this time he had his massive army behind him and Sakarnen, and it was the Last Battle for pete's sake.  At the cleansing he went because the DO would have expected him to, but he didn't want to fight there, he wasn't prepared and didn't have an interest in that battle.

 

The point is that he is outraged and panicked about having to be in direct combat. Hardly the mindset of the world's greatest swordsman.

 

After reading AMoL, I now find his actions then to be the result of being unexpectedly thrown into battle against his will, completely unprepared.

 

Awesome. Except that in TOM he said his folks were ready to start tangling

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There's been a couple of comments about 'a whole nation serving the shadow' in reference to Shara but isn't this dealt with somewhat in the text when Demandred asks one of his followers how they feel about serving the shadow and gets the response "we're serving you"

 

I thought the whole concept of Demandred and Shara was pretty cool.  I really wish it had not been left to the last book so that we could have seen some more development of it.  But, that would have ruined the surprise aspect of it. 

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The calculating focussed genius suddenly turns into a raving maniac who doesn't have a clue what's happening in SG and is prepared to risk everything in swordfights ? Doesn't really compute.

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Demandred would have been happier if someone had given him a nice piece of carpet to chew on. I mean, he really lost it towards the end. This may be realistic - people do strange things in the grip of monomania, especially if they believe that the object of their mania is toying with them - but I also found it very jarring.

 

This may be an unforgivable thing to say (avada kedavra!) but as I was reading his scenes I had in my mind Urvon, the character in Eddings' series who was driven mad by demons. All froth, little substance.

 

I could have done without three set-piece duels, too.

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Never had a dog in this fight but somewhat funny the number of people I've seen claiming Murandy was too obvious for Dem. The hints for Murandy were extremely subtle and for Shara no existent. Really the only reason anyone thought of it was because Murandy wasn't a military power and a large force could come from Shara.

 

Murandy was extremely obvious to me? the whole band thing, the book on wars that the king of murandy had, egwene saying king roedran wouldnt reply, he was repeatably mentioned at the end it was obvious something was happening since a character we have never seen on screen get mentions in the prologue, the end of tom and then various other times when its just a small provinence. Yes that was the reason cause a massive continent of channelers is mentioned and then never brought up why mention them then? if RJ talked about them too much in earlier books it would have made it too obvious demandred was there.

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Check the 2 main demandred threads on this forum, quite a few people mention shara and the only reason why roedran got so many supporters was because whenever anything else was mentioned terez would jump on them and try and say the only possible situation is roedran = demandred. Also when sanderson said its not who he is but what hes been upto, i argued in a thread that this couldnt mean anything to do with murandy cause him explaining you will know my importance to moridin just made it obvious it had to be something epic. Also most people argued that the roedran thing was going to provide a back way for the shadow to strike the light but they already had that through caemlyn.

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The calculating focussed genius suddenly turns into a raving maniac who doesn't have a clue what's happening in SG and is prepared to risk everything in swordfights ? Doesn't really compute.

He was never calculating he didnt care if the shadow won or loss all he wanted was his revenge on Lews Therin, he was proud and thought him the greatest sword fighter besides lews therin so he was confident he could win in all of them. How did you want him to lose? theres no possible way channelers could have defeated him when he has a circle of 72 and a saarngreal so you tell me a way that he would have lost that would have suited you that got him overpowered when he was holding that much power.

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Check the 2 main demandred threads on this forum, quite a few people mention shara and the only reason why roedran got so many supporters was because whenever anything else was mentioned terez would jump on them and try and say the only possible situation is roedran = demandred. Also when sanderson said its not who he is but what hes been upto, i argued in a thread that this couldnt mean anything to do with murandy cause him explaining you will know my importance to moridin just made it obvious it had to be something epic. Also most people argued that the roedran thing was going to provide a back way for the shadow to strike the light but they already had that through caemlyn.

 

Why do you think I left this place? I'm no dumbass. It eventually gets annoying arguing with people who stubbornly refuse to pay attention to demography, geography, economics, and so on even if it is a fantasy book series

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There is a common misconception about Demandred that everyone is buying into and I feel like it was a mistake on Brandon Sanderson's part.

 

Fact:  Demandred always hated Lews Therin.  Hated with a capital H.

 

Fact:  Demandred was not intent on personally killing him nor did he let his hatred drive his actions.  For example, during Winter's Heart he thinks this:  “So it seems he must be killed after all,” Demandred said. Hiding his satisfaction was not easy. Rand al’Thor or Lews Therin Telamon, he would rest easier when the fellow was dead."

 

So the guy clearly hates Rand, but he is far from a raving maniac ready to throw the entire war away just to kill Rand.  In fact, he wants Rand dead but he doesn't seem to care too much who does it one way or another until Brandon takes over writing.  As stated above, the cold and calculating genius suddenly turns into a starkly mad and raving maniac with a different goal than the series presented originally.

Edited by Mark D

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Seriously, i'm going to paint a picture of my first impressions of Demandred coming out of the giant gateway. 

 

But basically, did anyone else get the impression of the giant asgardian destroyer thing from thor? just standing there blowing shit up? (With some apparent crazies mixed in) 

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There is a common misconception about Demandred that everyone is buying into and I feel like it was a mistake on Brandon Sanderson's part.

 

Fact:  Demandred always hated Lews Therin.  Hated with a capital H.

 

Fact:  Demandred was not intent on personally killing him nor did he let his hatred drive his actions.  For example, during Winter's Heart he thinks this:  “So it seems he must be killed after all,” Demandred said. Hiding his satisfaction was not easy. Rand al’Thor or Lews Therin Telamon, he would rest easier when the fellow was dead."

 

So the guy clearly hates Rand, but he is far from a raving maniac ready to throw the entire war away just to kill Rand.  In fact, he wants Rand dead but he doesn't seem to care too much who does it one way or another until Brandon takes over writing.  As stated above, the cold and calculating genius suddenly turns into a starkly mad and raving maniac with a different goal than the series presented originally.

 

Yea, Mark. It's like, ok, if you want to show us Demandred gradually becoming more unhinged...

 

You should probably get on that shit at some point since, I dunno, Lord of bloody Chaos

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I was pleased he didn't come off as completely a mustache twirling villain for all his nasty deeds. Mostly a person warped so incredibly by hatred.

 

The sword fighting didn't surprise me. Isha/Rand or Be'lal/Rand had no reason to do it either. Egos I dunno. Expected though.

Edited by driedraspberry

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There is a common misconception about Demandred that everyone is buying into and I feel like it was a mistake on Brandon Sanderson's part.

 

Fact:  Demandred always hated Lews Therin.  Hated with a capital H.

 

Fact:  Demandred was not intent on personally killing him nor did he let his hatred drive his actions.  For example, during Winter's Heart he thinks this:  “So it seems he must be killed after all,” Demandred said. Hiding his satisfaction was not easy. Rand al’Thor or Lews Therin Telamon, he would rest easier when the fellow was dead."

 

So the guy clearly hates Rand, but he is far from a raving maniac ready to throw the entire war away just to kill Rand.  In fact, he wants Rand dead but he doesn't seem to care too much who does it one way or another until Brandon takes over writing.  As stated above, the cold and calculating genius suddenly turns into a starkly mad and raving maniac with a different goal than the series presented originally.

 

I always thought he wanted to beat LTT first, if anything part of it was that he wanted to kill LTT after he had shown him who was the better leader. Once he had watched his armies be crushed under Demandreds command. Always thought that was why he wanted Rand left alive for him to kill and why he wanted Moridin's word.

 

Afterall merely killing him would not have been enough, he needed to beat him, to break him to show him that he was not worthy of being The Dragon. That is why he turned to the shadow. Demandred could have killed him a few hundred times already if he had gone after him early on. But then again the other Forsaken should have eaten Rand alive as well. But if Demandred cared for nothing except killing Rand then he would have done it, and he would not have cared about the consequences.

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He almost had a Kurtz/Heart of Darkness thing going on from living with the Sharans which I really enjoyed. I just wish we had known a bit more about Shara and had at least ONE POV of Demandred doing more instead of Faile being kidnapped/Elayne taking a bath/Bargains with the Sea Folk. It seems like a wasted opportunity

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Whisky, absolutely. But they were both better than Lan. Except, as I said, Lan has author immortality

 

Well, Rand survived a similar fate with Ishamael.

 

If anyone could have survived an devasting injury, it is Lan.

 

And as said in his PoV, if Lan did not come in exhausted and semi-injured the battle would have been different (no need to sheath the sword).

 

Lan, greatest blademaster ever.

Edited by Entreri

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I've been seeing that wondering about Gawyn in other places as well and I think what people aren't taking into account is that he had first put one of those rings on like a week earlier. I don't remember the specifics of how long a person can last once they first use one but the buildup is there that he was close to the end either way with people thinking how pale he is and his own thoughs on feeling weaker than he should.

 

I think throwing on the other two just gave him a false high that didn't truly do anything.

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For me, the three back to back duels seemed to be more of an answer to the WoT fanboy's question "Who's the best blademaster in Randland?" than an effective end for one of the more interesting Forsaken.  The repetition struck me as almost comical rather than tension-filled and engaging; the poor bastards just kept galloping up, jumping off horses and getting various bits cut off.

I did appreciate Demandred attempting to even out-prophecy LTT, as if he could be an even greater savior for the Sharans than Rand could for the other nations  Competition and one-upmanship until the very end.  That rang true to my reading.

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I really didn't like most of the Demandred arc. Admittedly, in part this was because I just can't accept the Shara thing. This has been argued before but there was absolutely nothing pointing to Demandred hiding in Shara other than the process of elimination of large military resources. But by the same token he could have been hiding in the Land of the Madmen, in the Seanchan (it's huge and both Semi and Tuon have been gone a long time) or in a portal world somewhere. There are just as many clues pointing to him being in any of those places as to Shara, which is precisely zero.  On the other hand, we actually have clues in the opposite direction coming from Graendal and her involvement in Shara. Graendal operating there however briefly but not noticing a messianic figure showing up all of a sudden and conquering the land is not tenable.  I honestly would have been far happier if Mik's Seafolk theory turned out to be true than this Shara crap. It's just a huge deux ex machina and I expected better from RJ (this one is definitely on him). As Terez mentioned in another thread BS also made a number of pretty misleading statements implying that we could figure out Demandred's alter ego but this doesn't bother me nearly as much as the deux ex machina thing.

 

But even setting this aside I agree with Mark D that Demandred spends most of the screen time as a maniac  sitting on a hill and spraying his enemies with a huge machine gun. We are repeatedly told about his great general skills by various people including Demandred himself but we are not shown very much of that (unlike in Mat's case).  I expected something more subtle and devious. What we got from Demandred in AMOL was about as subtle and devious as a kick in the groin. I was also hoping for some hint of the mysterious very cool things that Demandred has been doing in the previous books according to BS. We got absolutely nothing in that department. The duels were pretty repetitive too. I suspect this one is on RJ as Gawyn's,  Galad's and Lan's roles in the LB were likely planned far in advance. I did enjoy the flashbacks of his fight with Lan to both TGH (sheathing the sword) and NS (Lan's fight against Ryne). I also kind of liked the Dragonslayer prohecies about Demandred in Shara. Still, this was very ad hoc and as such inappropriate for the very last book in the series IMO.

The best part of Demandred's story line IMO was his POV in the Last Battle chapter where he thinks about Shendla and some humanity in the guy comes through.

Edited by herid

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